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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    690

    When your designer disappears...

    I'm not posting this intending to bash anyone as I unbelievably still have a great deal of admiration for the guy and even considered him a friend, although now I'd have to think he obviously wasn't one.

    I met Steve Honeycutt (also known as --- southernman) here on wht, owner of Slicehaven.com back in December, 2003.

    Steve did some work for me, integrated my site design with the clientexec order script, did a great job for dirt cheap, so cheap I didn't understand why he was doing it at all, as I recall it was a special he was doing at the time, his support was unbelievable, quick response to email, instant messenger convos, etc....

    I had been thinking of a new site design for some time and I had decided to take the plunge, I initially looked at some pre-made templates, talked to a few designers whom I met on wht, found out about designoutpost and wound up starting a contest there to make a new logo, got the logo, loved it, was extremely pleased with webrhino who was the winner of the contest. I then opened up a contest for the template design, I had thought out what I wanted quite thoroughally and tried to give a massive amount of information so people didn't have to guess what I wanted. I let it run for a couple weeks, just wasn't seeing the interest I had expected, I think mainly because design outpost was just getting busy busy and Palmer was short staffed at the time with designers. I ended up pulling my contest and was planning on starting it up again at a later date.

    I had been talking to Steve to this point on a regular (almost daily) basis, Steve mentioned more than once about doing the design, I seemed to miss that he mentioned this to me but finally it sank in that he was interested in doing a full site design for me, including the complete site, scripts, modernbill order integration, etc.... I talked to Steve extensively and finally on February 2nd struck up a deal with Steve and got him a down payment on the project. It was on or around Feb 2, I couldn't locate the exact date, just going off of logs. At that time Steve indicated I could have the actual template design ready within 9-11 days, meaning it would be ready to code at that point, Steve kept in constant contact with me (other than a few minor exceptions).

    February 13th, I had approved the final revisions of the actual template, was very happy at this point, felt progress was being made and I would soon be looking at a new site online. Steve indicated at this point that he was going to start coding the template.

    Feb 25 --- No coded design yet, Steve advises he is still working on it, additionally Steve sets a deadline for the site to be complete, he says "10 days MAX"

    Feb 25 --- I have a client in need of a template, I negotiate with Steve and he gets the bid on a simple template for a client.

    Feb 25 - March 13 -- During this time frame I worked with Steve on a semi-regular basis (although contacts were becoming more difficult, Steve was online less and less, a likely reason could be that he was getting to many instant messages, understandable but email replies were becoming slower than normal, etc... Steve did manage to get the 2nd site design worked out, did a few revisions and I approved the final template to be coded. This all occured up until March 13th, keep in mind that I had paid Steve the full amount owed as previously agreed to this point, I won't state how much but it was a considerable sum.

    I had not received the psd's for the 2nd project yet, nor had I received any kind of completed site for extremeis.net , The project remained in limbo and I had no completed site, I still had full and absolute faith that it would get completed.

    March 13th to 20th -- Steve disappears.....Not returning any emails, phone calls, never comes online, flabhergasting, I was without my 2nd design project which takes precedence as it is for a client, no html, no psd's, nothing, thinking at that point that I had just lost the money and had to start over with a new design for it, I was also very concerned as this just didn't seem to be in character for Steve, he was highly regarded by other long time members of wht and had shown a professional presence to me on many prior occasions, I am a 911 dispatch supervisor in Washington state and as such my instinct led me to send a police officer to Steve's house to make sure he was still ok, I was genuinely concerned and I must admit somewhat distraught that
    a friend and someone whom I was depending on had just vanished from all contact. The day I sent the police officer, I believe March 20, I suddenly got an email in my inbox from Steve.
    Hey Bud...

    I just got a call from the guys at the station, asking if I was ok. Not to sure if I convinced him I was since I told him to have a good night... duh

    Had been sleeping really hard but jumped straight out of bed when the phone rang.

    I'll call or write more after I get back up. Sorry for the unexpected delay.

    Thanks...

    Best Regards,
    Steve Honeycutt
    This was later followed up with this email:

    Ryan,

    Here are the files for mcmemorial.

    As for wtf is going on... nothing like what you may think.

    I had an old contractor buddy call me at the last minute and beg me to gather up my old crew to paint a McAlisters Deli. Seeing as how I turn a pure profit of nearly 5k on this job... it was hard to pass up, not to mention I owed the guy a favor.

    I had imed with one of my other guys (internet work) and told him to get this finished and delivered to you. Of course, he no longer works for me... since he left this so undone.

    The day you called the cops... I had just gotten in after a 15 hour drive back home... and 6 days of 16-20 hours long. I was flat out beat and slept accordingly... for nearly 18 hours. I had (after talking to the cops) unplugged my phones, since they were ringing off the hook!

    I've barely been awake, long enough to finish the memorials site and get this out to you.

    I apologize for not having got in direct contact with you to let you know what was going on... I had very little time to round up my crew and hit the interstate.

    I don't blame ya for being pissed... for I would be too.

    I'll be afk for a while now again.... need to shower and grab some grub.

    Thanks...
    This was the response I get after him disappearing on me for a week when he was supposed to have given me a site over a week before that, finished site and that was just the one for my customer, not my very own!

    Steve again seemed to become at least somewhat accessible for a couple days but it was sporadic contact at best, left me in the lurch a good portion of the time and I had no idea what to expect or even more important "when" to expect my site.

    March 27th came and went and no updates were given, no new files were uploaded to the development site, etc.... March 28th, i sent an email requesting an update, March 30th I did the same, numerous other emails followed, I received little or no response from Steve.

    April 14th, I've basically started moving on but a few issues really still are bugging the hell out of me.

    **I paid Steve Honeycutt with Slicehaven for a website, I paid him in full and was going to end up paying him more at some point for additional work.

    **I never received psd's for my client project, now I have the site but should any major revisions ever need to be made I'm basically screwed here as well, I've asked on numerous occasions for the psd's, they have never been provided.

    **My new site design is in shambles, nothing is completed, the code is there but I don't know what to do with it, the psd's used for slicing it up have never been given to me, I have original psd's from the subcontracted designer who made it but it's not coded. I'm thinking about selling it as my requests to Steve for refunds have all been refused and I foolishly paid in advance and paid using paypal.

    You all might be wondering "what is this guys point in posting this thread". It's really very simple....my intention is to warn others that Steve is having some type of issues, he definitely knows what he is doing with regard to the technical side of things but his practices have become shady as of late, I am very disappointed that this couldn't be worked out otherwise but Steve hasn't answered an email in a couple weeks now and he's definitely not answering his phone.

    What do I want from Steve? I want one of three things, either I want a refund and he keeps all the work he did or I want my site complete or...I want the psd's for all the works Steve did for me so I can at minimum sell the designs to pay help pay for a new designer to do a website for me.

    I am very angry, disappointed, upset, blah blah blah, I don't even know what to say anymore, I have lost faith in people in general lately.

    I am a small hosting company, I work my hind end off to make it work, I am trying to build something so that I can eventually make it my full time job as well as that of a few other people, I have to county my pennies and every penny I save up goes right back into the company now, I saved up, sold some things, begged, borrowed and everything short of stole to raise the funds to get my new site design plans going and now it's all down the tube, humanity at it's best.

    I truly hope that anyone else who is dealing with online designers or for that matter any type of online business plays the game a lot smarter than I did, you really can't trust many people, even those you want to, I hope you can keep from happening what has happened to me.

    I wish you all the best and Steve, if you ever read this post I hope you can find it in yourself to do the right thing, specifically one of the things I mentioned above.

    Ryan Porter
    Extreme Internet Solutions
    Ryan Porter, Owner
    Extreme Internet Solutions
    Quality Hosting Solutions -- Affordable Prices
    Providing Fabulous Hosting and Unreal Web Design! Excellence is our focus.
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    494
    What a shame.

    Have you contacted paypal and told them about this? They might refund your money since this might be considered some type or scam.

    I just hope that everything turns out ok in the end for you.
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  3. #3
    ExtremeIS, that whole ordeal sound slike one huge pain in the ***. I know first hand how painful it is to try to work with someone over the internet that doesn't want to cooperate...few things compare to such frustration.

    The last quarter of ExtremeIS's post is good advice/experience that all parties looking to enlist a web designer/developer should know about.
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  4. #4
    Very interesting and informative post, especially with all the information posted. I would like to just go ahead and give my nod to AJ at FutureAdvanced. I personally have him working on a project for me right now and his communication has been excellent throughout the whole thing. Better than my own communication with him actually. If I had been able to get him everything he needed in a timely manner, he'd have the project done and I'd have a new website by now.

    Most reputable designers will not ask for the full payment up front. My deal with AJ is 50% up front and the remaining balance upon project completion. If you are looking for someone to complete your site, I would recommend him. He's currently doing a site redesign, rebranding and Modern Bill integration. He does excellent work at a very reasonable price. He also will continue to work continuously until he gets you *exactly* what you want. I've been nothing but impressed with his work ethic.
    www.square-network.com www.squarenetwork.com
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    May 2003 Member of the Month
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Kingsport, Tennessee
    Posts
    253

    My Friend

    ExtremeIS is a good friend of mine and I can tell you that he was VERY VERY excited about the site. Every new update to the design Ryan would IM me and get my input. I think he was like a kid in the candy store. When Steve disappeared, Ryan called and asked me if I had heard from Steve. I had grown concerned too...

    I know that Ryan was must have fought internally whether to post or not to post. I know some people post for revenge and others post to take a shot.

    I think Ryan just wants you all to know the situation to help others.

    Secretly, I think there is hope that Steve may see this post and realize that we do care about him as a friend. What happened to the Steve we use to know?
    Jake Necessary
    ServerMotion
    If you need any help just ask me. See Profile for IM Info.
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    halifax, ns
    Posts
    220
    me and steve don't get along too well but I don't have anything against the guy.

    but yeah contact paypal and try and get your funding back but only after you have tried all means to get in touch with him. but be sure its within 30 days or paypal won't help you.

    then move onto another designer. time equals off.
    Brian Larter
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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Twin Cities Area
    Posts
    5,649
    Originally posted by Coach
    Most reputable designers will not ask for the full payment up front.
    says who???
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!
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  8. #8
    Very informative post. Seems Steve was a very reputable designer. I think many freelancers don't set realistic expectations.
    They don't properly plan their projects or take on to many projects at the same time. Who can blame them, they are trying to make as much money as they can. Your have every right to be upset, especially when the project was started and you were excited about this new vision.

    On the flip side never pay the full amount, it just doesn't give you any flexibility. We work on a 3 (1/3 of total) stage payment system. This works great, because for whatever reason you want to pull your project, you don't take the total lost and we don't get screwed with payment for the work already done.

    I don't think Steve had bad intensions, basically he did not plan properly, he failed to communicate to you when things where not going to be delivered on times. Communication is key, even if you are apologizing for a huge mess up. You don't hide these things from the client.

    I'm sure if you have the mockup you could get someone to assist you in making it a reality.

    Good Luck.
    Datums Internet Solutions, LLC
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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    690
    I appreciate the input so far, I (unfortunately) have determined that the paypal issue is unrealistic, it's been well over the 30 day mark since my last payment to Steve. I realize I am relying on him to either reimburse me or finish the site. I'm no longer sure I want that site up because it will constantly remind me of these things that happened.

    Have a great day, i'm going to bed now.

    Ryan Porter, Owner
    Extreme Internet Solutions
    Quality Hosting Solutions -- Affordable Prices
    Providing Fabulous Hosting and Unreal Web Design! Excellence is our focus.
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  10. #10
    Originally posted by LaurenStephens
    says who???
    Says most designers I have dealt with.
    www.square-network.com www.squarenetwork.com
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    May 2003 Member of the Month
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  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,733
    Doesn't sound like a good situation. Are you still trying to contact him?
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  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    540
    Unfortunately we often learn lessons the hard way. I feel for you on that situation. It simply sucks. It's tough when someone has a good reputation and their reputation is tested by you.

    Although the internet brings opportunity to find people from all over the world, when it comes to big projects, I always prefer to "see the whites of their eyes" before going into a deal. Meaning I try and find someone locally.
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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ontario Canada
    Posts
    10
    I am a designer and as a rule we get 50% down to start and balance when its complete with the customer getting a copy on disk and the PSD master. But sorry to hear about your bad experiance.
    Last edited by NexxAccess; 04-15-2004 at 01:21 PM.
    Garrett Bishop
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    Get us working for you
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  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    161
    Hi Ryan,

    Sorry to hear that. In the future, find web designer who has designed at least 10 or more sites. This tells you that he/she is designing web sites for a living, and he/she will want to complete your website. Also, pay only 40% of total project cost in advanced. Another 40% after completion and lastly, 20% after the site is launched for 3 weeks.

    By the third week after the launch, you will uncover many problems and website maintenance issues. At this point in time, you still can negiotate with the designer, since he/she hasn't get last payment yet.

    Hope this helps.

    Cristiano
    HostPulse.com - Hosting Directory & Tips
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  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    304
    Every designing company has their own payment structure, but a good way to get reassurance on any deal is to have a written contract. The contract should be agreed to at time of first payment, so that both the designer and client understand the tasks and the schedule expectations. If the product is not delivered, it will be easier to take action if you have a written contract to back up your claims.
    JC, www.webii.net
    Premium Hosting Services Since 1996
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  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    341

    Re: When your designer disappears...

    Originally posted by ExtremeIS
    did a great job for dirt cheap, so cheap I didn't understand why he was doing it at all
    That is just like a web host that is overselling way to much, it will not last in the long run...
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  17. #17

    Thanks

    Hey there,

    I know you had this problem a while ago Ryan. I hope you got everything fixed and got your site in working order.

    I just wanted to drop you a line and thank you for starting this discusion. I know that sounds strange considering what you had to go through, but I'll explaine.

    I'm 22 and have started my own design firm; right now the firm is just me, but I'm firmly deturmined to make it so... ;-) Anyway, the discussion you got started helped me to hear what's on the other side, what folk who represent my future clients are looking for -- and not looking for. So thanks!
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  18. #18
    Ryan,

    I just relized where the message posting dates are displayed, I thought your sign-up date was the message date, duh. I'm new to this board, can you tell?

    Anyway, hope this ordeal hasn't got you down about all designers. For the most part we are fairly decent guys.
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  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    341
    Originally posted by NewQuest
    I'm new to this board
    Welcome
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  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    692

    It's back...

    Well... Ryan posted a lot of info for you all to have a read over. The thing is, Ryan did a nice job of posting most all of the facts.

    I prefer to not explain the embarrassing situation, that's kept me from my work/computer for so long... in public at least. Ryan will definately be given the details though. FWIW... I have always been your friend Ryan. If'n I didn't feel that way, do you really think I would have spent many, many hours on IM with you... prior to the redesign work???

    I can only think of one thing that, others which have read this thread, should be made clear on... I never asked Ryan to pay me in 100% on anything, until it was completed. The project he did pay me in full on (upfront) was done on his own. In fact, even for his own design... I never requested more than a fair/reasonable amount be paid me at any time. Ryan was however... "very persistent" with payments. Payments that had not been asked for... nor expected by me (not until I had invoiced him for a payment, did I expect any payment).

    Ryan, I do appreciate the restraint you show in your post. I do apologize to you (publicly - and very sincerely!) for the aggrevation caused, loss of sleep, and possible loss of religion at times... Most of all though, I apologize for the delays of your redesign and lack of communication in the last 45 days or so.

    I'll very soon - be in contact with you, Ryan.
    Last edited by Southernman; 04-25-2004 at 05:12 PM.
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  21. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Twin Cities Area
    Posts
    5,649
    Originally posted by 25hosts
    Hi Ryan,

    Also, pay only 40% of total project cost in advanced. Another 40% after completion and lastly, 20% after the site is launched for 3 weeks.

    are you a professional designer?

    i have a feeling you arent.

    IMO and only IMO your payment schedule suggestion is laughable at best! especially the three week thing!

    designers probably get burned more than any other class of service people that i know.

    not only that but when you let a client rule/control the job, it can go on and on forever.

    i have found that since the ONLY way i work is paid in full up front, not only do i know the client is SERIOUS but that they are good for the money.

    i also know that they are ready to proceed and have everything they need to get the project completed.

    more often than not clients cant pay up front because they dont have the money, or sometimes they really arent taking it seriously.

    im not talking about cheap $50 websites or something, im talking a real and complete website.

    i cant even TELL you how clients like to take forever and change their mind a gazillion times when they know they can hold your payment hostage.

    funny thing happens when theyve already paid... they are in a hurry!

    i would NEVER work for anyone without my payment first, but to each his own...
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!
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  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    690
    Wow, I just saw this update from Southerman, I'm very interested in hearing from him and possibly getting my psd's.

    Thanks,

    Ryan
    Ryan Porter, Owner
    Extreme Internet Solutions
    Quality Hosting Solutions -- Affordable Prices
    Providing Fabulous Hosting and Unreal Web Design! Excellence is our focus.
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  23. #23
    are you a professional designer?

    i have a feeling you arent.

    IMO and only IMO your payment schedule suggestion is laughable at best! especially the three week thing!
    Firstly, I'm pretty sure you have no right whatsoever to imply that someone is not a professional designer. If that is their profession, then as such they are a professional in that respect.

    And that's a pretty good payment schedule, I might adopt it myself.
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  24. #24
    Well, Sasuke you do have a point. If someone says they are pros then all we can do is take them at their word. Having a business relationship is really the only way to see if they really are.

    But, LaurenStephens has a good point too. Designers get burned bad, a lot. I wouldn't work with a client if they used that outragous payment schedual. It totaly benifits the client and not the designer.

    Personaly I charge 40%-50% up front depending on the projected total cost. Important to note, if a designer makes a cost projection he needs to stick to it, even if costs run over.

    The key for the desgner is to stay in charge or he will get pushed all over. As far as payment goes, I'm in charge, we do it my way or we don't do business. And Clients are fine with that attitude as long as you are looking out for their interests as well. If you push your weight arround and try to wrack up the cost clients can sese you aren't helping them and will leave.
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  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    540
    Originally posted by LaurenStephens
    [i have found that since the ONLY way i work is paid in full up front, not only do i know the client is SERIOUS but that they are good for the money.
    I have been paying various designers for over 7 years on multiple projects for multiple companies. Not ONE designer (and I can absolutely say that it is a fact for me) has delivered "exactly" what they have promised. Either the timeline was off, the quality was not as good, or something else. I know you may say there are designers who differ.

    Props if you are able to get that, but there is no way I would ever pay a designer 100% up front.
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