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  1. #1

    Post News: Bush is the first U.S. president to give legitimacy to Jewish settlements.

    http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=4828378

    Bush's support for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will go down well with conservative and Jewish voters in the U.S. presidential election but was likely to inflame the Arab world and further complicate efforts to stabilize Iraq.
    The announcement marked a shift from the decades-old U.S. policy of viewing the Jewish settlements as an obstacle to peace and was greeted with anger by Palestinian officials.




    IMO, this will bring more chaos.

    Mr president said
    "In light of new realities on the ground, including already existing major Israeli population centers,
    does this encourage all countries to break law, and create ( new realities on the ground), then start negotioating from there, how wise.
    I'm not against a 2 countries resolution, both living side by side in peace, but the way its going now, it will only bring more chaos to the whole world, it will raise hatred to USA.

    Job well done MR. Bush
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  2. #2
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    From SKY NEWS ONLINE

    >>

    President George Bush has been accused of inflaming the situation in the Middle East after he backed Israel's plan to start the withdrawal of settlements from Gaza and parts of the West Bank.

    <<


    Web Rhino, i am aware of how you feel about the situation but i have a question or two on this issue.

    Of course we will need cross border agreement to settle this for the long term but what is your main problem withIsrael unilaterally trying to extract or disengage themselves from areas like the West Bank and Gaza? If someone can take the initiative or be pro active in some way the two parties might be forced back to the table as a response. Might be nice once in a while if that happened.

    thanks

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    How about Israel follows all the UN Resolutions that the US voted in favor of and then If Palestine continues terrorist acts even after Israel is following the resolutions then we go Iraqi on them. Instead of this decade long war we will make it a 3 week one.
    Alvin

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    sounds good

    Originally posted by alvinks
    How about Israel follows all the UN Resolutions that the US voted in favor of and then If Palestine continues terrorist acts even after Israel is following the resolutions then we go Iraqi on them. Instead of this decade long war we will make it a 3 week one.
    I like it - but go worse than iraqi - this is getting rediculous. give them their country back and then if they attack someone again - give it to them so this is not a matter any more.
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    Originally posted by Critic
    Of course we will need cross border agreement to settle this for the long term but what is your main problem withIsrael unilaterally trying to extract or disengage themselves from areas like the West Bank and Gaza? If someone can take the initiative or be pro active in some way the two parties might be forced back to the table as a response.
    Whilst extracting 7,000 settlers and military outposts fom Gaza would be progress, the West Bank is an entirely different matter, keeping 92,000 settlers in the West Bank with an "agreement" that amounts to formally annexing bits of the West Bank (as opposed to merely occupying it) does not seem like progress.

    As for being proactive and it bringing people to the table, it seems very obvious that the Palestinians have been delibrately kept away from the table and the only response this particularly initiative is likely to illicit is one of violence.

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    I am not saying bringing anything back to the table. Just have Israel follow the UN resolutions that the United States voted for and if Palestinians still attack after this huge good faith gesture then the UN (along with the United States) comes in with full force to regulate Palestine.

    The other option is what we have now which is nothing. Instead of another decade of violence I am saying we have a few months of it and it would include all the nations of the world.

    The settlers have occupied areas using pretty tasteless measures and thought it will be painful to resettle them I believe it is worth the benefits which would be peace in the middle east.
    Alvin

  7. #7
    peace in the middle east
    That'll be the day. This war is nearly as old as I am!!
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  8. #8
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    Originally posted by alvinks
    Just have Israel follow the UN resolutions
    And there's the flaw in your plan, Israel don't follow UN resolutions (even ones America voted for) and it's unlikely they will unless America elects a president who isn't either a religous nut, a gutless wonder or a combination of both.

  9. #9
    Same thing with America getting involved with the Cyprus issue.

    Turkey invades Cyprus in 1974 backed by United States back then secretly and now officially trying to resolve peace in Cyprus instead of the split border setup by giving the Cypriots the *** end of the bargain.

    Even though the northern state of cyprus is an illegal occupation and no one recongnises it but turkey, USA wants the cypriots to allow unification with the turks. So turkey can get into the EU and America can have there puppets acting for them.

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    Israel don't follow UN resolutions
    Sharon takes these baby steps. Terrorists that don't want this blow something up. Sharon not only reverses the steps, but destroy some houses to make a point. 6 weeks later Sharon takes another few baby steps and terrorists attack again. This is an endless cycle.

    Only serious international pressure on both sides of this problem will resolved this issue. This pressure will most likely create additional deaths in the short terms, but save thousands in the long term and possibly millions if you think about the international ramifications this is currently causing.
    Alvin

  11. #11
    Originally posted by alvinks
    How about Israel follows all the UN Resolutions that the US voted in favor of and then If Palestine continues terrorist acts even after Israel is following the resolutions then we go Iraqi on them. Instead of this decade long war we will make it a 3 week one.
    i double that.

    Critic, of course Iím not against the Israeli withdrawal, i never said that this is my problem, my problem is who gave bush the right to give Israel the right to keep an occupied land as a prize for withdrawing from another part of the land.

    so now a country can occupy another country , then after 50 years of negotiations, in MR. Bush new concept (reality on land), the occupying country will get 50% of the occupied land and withdraw from the other 50%
    50-50 isn't even the reality here look at the maps, you will find that Gaza strip is very small compared to the west bank (area wise).
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    thats dangerous ground

    Originally posted by Web Rhino
    i double that.

    Critic, of course Iím not against the Israeli withdrawal, i never said that this is my problem, my problem is who gave bush the right to give Israel the right to keep an occupied land as a prize for withdrawing from another part of the land.

    so now a country can occupy another country , then after 50 years of negotiations, in MR. Bush new concept (reality on land), the occupying country will get 50% of the occupied land and withdraw from the other 50%
    50-50 isn't even the reality here look at the maps, you will find that Gaza strip is very small compared to the west bank (area wise).
    if we enforced that mantra strictly here is what Isrealis would claim
    We are tearing down the al aqsa temple and rebulding the jewish temple since it was there first and was taken a desecrated by the muslims that built the temple on top of it.

    that would only be fair - right?

    I suspect you will say no - that is an exception - so I guess there are always expceptions and the old addage of "son - no one ever said life is fair" is sometimes true.

    At some point there will have to be a mutual compromise since there have been so many wrongs on each of these people against each other.

    otherwise - it will be a neverending - well you didd this - I must be avenged - well you did this so I must be avanged. and so forth an so on.

    Maybe that is what we are destined for. maybe that is why most think that nukes will be used in this region in our life due to the deep seeded 1000's year old bad blood feuds over there.
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    I wonder how long that has been in the pipeline between Sharon and Bush ...

    The Palestinian are been fooled by Bush with the so-called roadmap..
    ^^ IM WITH STUPID!! ^^

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  14. #14
    Sailor, i don't understand- what are you trying to say ?!!

    The Jewish temple story is way off topic-who knows its real location anyway? , Iím talking about land here, about resources....green lands, water resources, strategic areas; this is only what Israel is after,
    -why does the wall go into Palestinian land eating up green lands?
    - why isnít it on the borders? Maybe this is a new reality on land stuff?
    -why should the Palestinian side be force to sacrifice?


    Itís all about interests. Elections are coming up and bush is doing a little strip for Jewish voters.

    His comments will only bring more chaos to the area; it will not bring peace in anyway.
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    Originally posted by alvinks
    How about Israel follows all the UN Resolutions that the US voted in favor of and then If Palestine continues terrorist acts even after Israel is following the resolutions then we go Iraqi on them. Instead of this decade long war we will make it a 3 week one.
    the war will not be 3 weeks no matter what. no matter what the turn out is there will always be turmoil between the palestnians and the israelis.

    gauranteed..

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    Originally posted by vibesolutions
    the war will not be 3 weeks no matter what. no matter what the turn out is there will always be turmoil between the palestnians and the israelis.

    gauranteed..
    Always is long time. How about 20, 30 years. Looking at the speed palestinian population grows and comparing it to israely population growth, eventualy israelis will be minority and things will settle.

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    Who said the folowing:

    "To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day hero ... assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an un-winnable urban guerilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability."

  18. #18
    How about US government and their partriotic morons (no offense to real US patriots) getting their *** back to US and stop getting in other countries business.

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    One would almost think Sharon prepared Bush's "new realities" speech

    I am sure Sharon will go back to Israel with a big smile on his face.

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    [qt]the war will not be 3 weeks no matter what. no matter what the turn out is there will always be turmoil between the palestnians and the israelis.[qt]

    I do agree that certain level of turmoil would exists for at least 20-30 years, even after the 3 week international offensive, however it would be the start some possible peace. Muslims and Jews have lived in peace (in this area) many times throughout the last 3 thousand years and it can happen again. Jews and Muslims are not mortal enemies.

    If Palestinians were given an unoccupied country with a governement that has real power I think the turmoil would be significantly less. To get to this point requires some international involvement.
    Alvin

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    gladly

    Originally posted by CyberAlien
    How about US government and their partriotic morons (no offense to real US patriots) getting their *** back to US and stop getting in other countries business.
    I am sure the morons here will be happy to mind their business when the other countries morons you are referring to step up to the plate and control their idiots. like - dont let them come over here and hijack our planes and blow up our buildings and you wont see us over there as much.

    wow- no we have labeled everyone in the world as morons and idiots - what is the world coming to. lol
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    Originally posted by timechange.com
    Who said the folowing:

    "To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day hero ... assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an un-winnable urban guerilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability."
    Quiz is over - the quote above was made by GW Bush's father in 1996. Seems Junior does not consult his Dad's wisdom much

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    actualy not

    Originally posted by Web Rhino
    Sailor, i don't understand- what are you trying to say ?!!

    The Jewish temple story is way off topic-who knows its real location anyway? , Iím talking about land here, about resources....green lands, water resources, strategic areas; this is only what Israel is after,
    -why does the wall go into Palestinian land eating up green lands?
    - why isnít it on the borders? Maybe this is a new reality on land stuff?
    -why should the Palestinian side be force to sacrifice?


    Itís all about interests. Elections are coming up and bush is doing a little strip for Jewish voters.

    His comments will only bring more chaos to the area; it will not bring peace in anyway.

    actually its right on topic and in fact most christians believe that the temple has to be rebuilt as the next sign of the return of christ. the last sign was the reconstitution of the nation of israel.

    if it were flipped flopped - I a m sure we would be hearing all about the mosque that was desecrated when the jews destroyed it and built their temple on top of it - its land - its history - so yes it is very on topic.

    as far as location - it is the correct location. that is very well documented by archeaologists and historians worldwide - both christian, muslim and jewish - so there is no argument there.
    in fact the wall of the temple is in tact - it is now the wailing wall.
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    Bush and Sharon are buddies. If Bush was really smart, he would've told Sharon to get those settlements off Palenstine land asap with a timeline and if Sharon refused, break relations with Isreal. The U.S. is about the only nation on the planet that has relations with Isreal.

    Originally posted by barleduc
    One would almost think Sharon prepared Bush's "new realities" speech

    I am sure Sharon will go back to Israel with a big smile on his face.
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    Re: gladly

    Originally posted by sailor
    I am sure the morons here will be happy to mind their business when the other countries morons you are referring to step up to the plate and control their idiots. like - dont let them come over here and hijack our planes and blow up our buildings and you wont see us over there as much.
    a very simple question...which of those 2 things happened first and where?

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    Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by sailor
    in fact most christians believe that the temple has to be rebuilt as the next sign of the return of christ.
    And there we have the problem in a nutshell (at least in regard to US invlovement), the number of mentals who believe in things like the rapture. Unfortunately these people are allowed to vote and are large enough in number to cause most presidents a problem if they upset them (although in the case of Bush it could well be academic), thus we have why America defends a country condemned by the rest of the world.

    Hopefully one day America will elect a great man as president again, one that puts what is right or wrong before his own election chances, but I won't hold my breath.

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    Re: Re: gladly

    Originally posted by feather
    I am sure the morons here will be happy to mind their business when the other countries morons you are referring to step up to the plate and control their idiots. like - dont let them come over here and hijack our planes and blow up our buildings and you wont see us over there as much.
    That holds no ground, USA was around butting into everyone else business way before 9/11, you just got a taste of your own medice ... "Very Sour" now you know how others feel.

    Originally posted by feather
    a very simple question...which of those 2 things happened first and where?
    I was wondering the same, lets not forget the USA never does wrong in some peoples eyes.
    ^^ IM WITH STUPID!! ^^

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    Re: Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by bagpuss
    And there we have the problem in a nutshell (at least in regard to US invlovement), the number of mentals who believe in things like the rapture. Unfortunately these people are allowed to vote and are large enough in number to cause most presidents a problem if they upset them (although in the case of Bush it could well be academic), thus we have why America defends a country condemned by the rest of the world.

    Hopefully one day America will elect a great man as president again, one that puts what is right or wrong before his own election chances, but I won't hold my breath.
    I took offense to that. I believe in the Rapture. I'm mental now?

    There's a little thing called RESPECT, I'd use it if I were you.

    Regards,
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    Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by sailor
    actually its right on topic and in fact most christians believe that the temple has to be rebuilt as the next sign of the return of christ. the last sign was the reconstitution of the nation of israel.
    That's not entirely accurate. There are way too many different variations of Christianity to pin that on Christianity. The Protestant view is outlined in the book of Revelations...such things as: peace in the Middle East, one world leader, etc...

    Regards,
    Waylon

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    Re: Re: Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by Velostream
    I took offense to that. I believe in the Rapture. I'm mental now?

    There's a little thing called RESPECT, I'd use it if I were you.

    Regards,
    Waylon
    I agree - this thread has had a couple of instances now of people calling others mentals or morons due to what they believe in . a little unproductive.



    I guess then everyone would be mentals based on somehting they believe depending on who you ask.
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    Re: Re: Re: gladly

    Originally posted by s.h.a.zz.y
    That holds no ground, USA was around butting into everyone else business way before 9/11, you just got a taste of your own medice ... "Very Sour" now you know how others feel.



    I was wondering the same, lets not forget the USA never does wrong in some peoples eyes.
    the first part was actually a quote from me not vfeather. can you tell me how we have been in other peoples business and others have not??

    is britain above this? is iraq above this , please inform me who is not in others business. I guess its a good thing we all get in each others business from time to time - usally is for the good.

    I am a little disappointed by saying that 9/11 is a taste of our own medicine. is this really how you feel?
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    Re: Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by Velostream
    That's not entirely accurate. There are way too many different variations of Christianity to pin that on Christianity. The Protestant view is outlined in the book of Revelations...such things as: peace in the Middle East, one world leader, etc...

    Regards,
    Waylon
    mine is the view as you say from the the new testament in the bible - I am not sure what variations of true christianity go with a different view outside of what the bible says?

    and btw - I am definately not a very good bible scholar - so if I mis state something on here - a simple correction with a citation to the appropriate verse will be appreciated.
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    Re: Re: Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by Velostream
    I took offense to that. I believe in the Rapture. I'm mental now?
    Fine it's your right to believe what you want and it's my right to have the same respect for people who believe in fairytales like the rapture as I reserve for people who believe in fairies at the bottom of their garden, the loch ness monster and genetically altered lizards running the world, which is none.

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by bagpuss
    Fine it's your right to believe what you want and it's my right to have the same respect for people who believe in fairytales like the rapture as I reserve for people who believe in fairies at the bottom of their garden, the loch ness monster and genetically altered lizards running the world, which is none.
    Yes, but you don't have the right to break forum rules and say someone is something because of what they believe.

    Regards,
    Waylon

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by Velostream
    Yes, but you don't have the right to break forum rules and say someone is something because of what they believe.
    I didn't make a comment about someone, I made it about a group of people.

    I've read the rules there appears to be nothing in there about making a comment about a group due to their beliefs.

    How is me making a comment about people who believe in the rapture any different from the hundreds of comments along similar lines in this forum about the beliefs of other groups such a communists, KKK, BNP, Nazis, protestors, islamic fundamentalists and so on?
    Last edited by bagpuss; 04-15-2004 at 05:50 PM.

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by bagpuss
    I didn't make a comment about someone, I made it about a group of people.

    I've read the rules there appears to be nothing in there about making a comment about a group due to their beliefs.

    How is me making a comment about people who believe in the rapture any different from the hundreds of comments along similar lines in this forum about the beliefs of other groups such a communists, KKK, BNP, Nazis, protestors, islamic fundamentalists and so on?
    Oh please. You're going to compare Christians to those who spread hate and have murderded hundreds upon thousands, collectively? Communists, KKK, BNP, Nazis, islamic fundamentalists have all spread havoc. Last I checked, no one who believes in the rapture has done that.

    From Forum rules:

    We take the "Be Polite" rule very seriously! We do not tolerate any rudeness. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant or disruptive may be banned without warning.

    Regards,
    Waylon

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: gladly

    Originally posted by sailor
    can you tell me how we have been in other peoples business and others have not??
    If your going to ask me such a question in the first place than I think there is no point at all of me answering.

    is britain above this? is iraq above this , please inform me who is not in others business. I guess its a good thing we all get in each others business from time to time - usally is for the good.
    Well US and UK are above the rest as they surely have enough bombs to level everyone else and i will agree with you that when US and UK get involved in some thing it is for there own good not others!!

    I am a little disappointed by saying that 9/11 is a taste of our own medicine. is this really how you feel?
    exactly that! made them...armed them...just name them! osma to bob and he can live right next to your house o yea like everything else have the CIA or some one teach him bible says kill muslims and he'll do that as well :-d

    guns and bombs they still use were given by the US to fight the russians and some stuff they took from the russians...US interests caused alot more innocent deaths than those of 3,000.

    US spends some thing like what 500 billion $ on its miltary etc every year half of the world budget and the rest is proberly UK...i guess all for the most obvious reasons..

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    Re: Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by bagpuss
    And there we have the problem in a nutshell (at least in regard to US invlovement), the number of mentals who believe in things like the rapture. Unfortunately these people are allowed to vote and are large enough in number to cause most presidents a problem if they upset them (although in the case of Bush it could well be academic), thus we have why America defends a country condemned by the rest of the world.

    Hopefully one day America will elect a great man as president again, one that puts what is right or wrong before his own election chances, but I won't hold my breath.
    The number of mentals?

    So let me get this straight, people who believe in the rapture are mental?

    What I find funny about your posts is most conservatives/Christians are accused of being 'close minded' yet calling a group of people (as you call them) mental is extremly closed minded...

    Get a clue..
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gladly

    Originally posted by feather
    If your going to ask me such a question in the first place than I think there is no point at all of me answering.



    Well US and UK are above the rest as they surely have enough bombs to level everyone else and i will agree with you that when US and UK get involved in some thing it is for there own good not others!!



    exactly that! made them...armed them...just name them! osma to bob and he can live right next to your house o yea like everything else have the CIA or some one teach him bible says kill muslims and he'll do that as well :-d

    guns and bombs they still use were given by the US to fight the russians and some stuff they took from the russians...US interests caused alot more innocent deaths than those of 3,000.

    US spends some thing like what 500 billion $ on its miltary etc every year half of the world budget and the rest is proberly UK...i guess all for the most obvious reasons..
    I think you need to go look at some more history and occurences. iraq - kuwait, etc etc. and even go back further, egyptian slavery of jews, etc etc, there are plenty of bad things out there.

    I just laugh though when someone likes to quote only a few expamples in recent history of things and tries to point the worlds woes to one group.

    were all in it and all have wronged someone at some time. I think one thing we all agree on is - we all wish it were different and there was peace and prosperity. I for one still have a lot of sites in the middle east that I would like to see.....but not any time soon i am afraid.


    btw - what country are you from - I will give you some examples if you like of your countries wrongs. we all have them you know.
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actualy not

    Originally posted by Velostream
    Oh please. You're going to compare Christians to those who spread hate and have murderded hundreds upon thousands, collectively? Communists, KKK, BNP, Nazis, islamic fundamentalists have all spread havoc. Last I checked, no one who believes in the rapture has done that.
    Oh please yourself, many of the derogatory comments on this forum about communisim for example are simply about it's idealogy and have nothing to do with murdering hundreds of thousands.

    The same applies to the BNP and Islam, I noticed you conviently missed protestors, but to add to the list of groups / people that have had far worse comments made about them on this forum than mine about those who believe in the rapture, try, the republicans, the democrats, Bush, Blair, Chirac, the French, liberals, Microsoft and so on (most of whom haven't murdered hundreds of thousands to my knowledge). I see no difference between the various comments on these people / groups and mine about people who believe in the rapture.

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