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  1. #1
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    * Customer has copyrighted material and WE'RE the bad guys!

    You've gotta love it. Last night we received a formal complaint of copyright infringement against one of our resellers about certain material they were selling on one of their domains. Our DC and the company in question asked that the account be removed immediately. After checking things out we tarred up their other domains and moved them to another area for them to retrieve. We then removed the accounts and notified them of their account cancellation.

    This morning we receive an email stating that they (the reseller) "will contact Internet Crimes and hosting association and advise them of these violations in providing standard hosting services"

    We responded very politely, reminding them that our TOS state that any account found to be hosting copyrighted material will be removed without notice, and that they agreed to our TOS when they signed up for an account. Since this was a reseller's domain, (verified by a whois lookup), we had to remove the entire account.

    The kicker is that they were warned (by us) prior to this company's complaint to remove that material.

    Why do people feel the need to resort to threats when they've done something wrong? *shakes head*

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
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    Australia (Crikey)
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    when people are caught out they usually threaten you, but its most likely a bluff. Just forget about them

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    Let them contact. Also never heard of an Internet Crime and hosting association. But it is a strange world. This is quite a black and white issue and who is right and who is wrong and they still dare complain?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    EU - east side
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    Well, the least one should do when proven wrong is to admit it and say "I'm sorry". Obviously some people think they're never wrong.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    USA
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    I've never heard of that association either

    Unless you actually feel that the 'threat' is real, do not waste your time with it.
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  6. #6
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    I think they were threatening to contact the Internet Crimes Association and the Hosting Association.

    Funny, I've never heard of a HA either LOL .

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    The South
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    They're blowing smoke, ignore the silliness. If these organizations even existed they'll be smart enough to realize no one can host someone stealing copyrighted material and that you did the right thing.

    Threats and bluffs is all it is, good for a laugh. We get stupid crap like this from time to time too, it's part of life.
    Gary Harris - the artist formerly known as Dixiesys
    resident grumpy redneck

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Canada
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    794
    Yeah, they probably are bluffing, however, copyright infringement is serious.

    I've had many people illegally host software that I owned the copyright for. I managed to get several hosting accounts suspended, but some of the hosting companies I've had to deal with to get stuff removed was really bad. If they stop responding or won't do anything, then I notify law enforcement, get my lawyer to do up a formal letter, etc., etc.

    But if you had the illegal content removed, then you should be fine.
    Michael

  9. #9
    IMO you handled this situation poorly. If you are in the US, no action needs to be taken until the accuser sends a formal DCMA letter stating specifically what he believes is his copyrighted info. As the host, you then have the responsibility to take down the cited material, and only that material, or be held legally responsible. The accused however then has the right to counter the charges if he wants with a letter back to you. If he does, the law then says the host should put the disputed material back online. The onus then goes back on the accuser to file a lawsuit against the accused and let a court of law decide the case.

    This reseller or one of his clients may be guilty of copyright infringement, but you as the host have no right to act as judge and jury and shut down all of his domains when the material in question is only on one. IMO you should have removed only the cited material then wait for a reaction by your customer. You better hope he or his clients aren't smart enough to sue you for loss of business because I think they could easily win. As for your TOS, merely signing up for an account does not automatically mean a customer read or agreed with your terms. In order for it to hold up in court as an enforceable contract without a signature, he has to positively acknowledge in some way he has read and agreed with it. If this guy or his clients decide to sue you and there is no previous court decision favoring the accuser as the rightful copyright holder, then you get the lovely job of proving the whole copyright infringement case yourself in order to show he's guilty of this and thus broke a term in your TOS.

    It's really easy for a host to push around customers, and most will take it. If you piss off the wrong one, it could cost you your entire business and then some. Obviously, you don't want to get sued by the accuser for not taking action, but overstepping your responsibility makes you very vulnerable to a long and expensive suit by the accused.

    By Internet Crimes, I think he's referring to the Internet Crime Complaint Center aka Internet Fraud Complaint Center which is run by the FBI and the NWCCC (National White Collar Crime Center). I don't know what he's referring to on the other one. If you're in the US, he could just go to the BBB. Although they have no real authority, they can give you an unsatisfactory rating until you resolve the issue with him. A lot of people check the BBB before doing business with small or not well-known companies. What better way to get back at you with absolutely no cost then to have the BBB tell potential customers who ask that you have an unsatisfactory record for resolving customer complaints.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    63

    Re: Customer has copyrighted material and WE'RE the bad guys!

    Originally posted by P-nut


    We responded very politely, reminding them that our TOS state that any account found to be hosting copyrighted material will be removed without notice, and that they agreed to our TOS when they signed up for an account. Since this was a reseller's domain, (verified by a whois lookup), we had to remove the entire account.

    What inwhois lets you verify a domain is a reseller's domain??

    Also, many TOS are written in a way that they are considered to be invaid due to being contracts by adhesion.
    Last edited by jbw; 04-11-2004 at 04:35 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    63
    Originally posted by TechChips
    IMO you handled this situation poorly. If you are in the US, no action needs to be taken until the accuser sends a formal DCMA letter stating specifically what he believes is his copyrighted info. As the host, you then have the responsibility to take down the cited material, and only that material, or be held legally responsible. The accused however th
    Failure to responsd to the DCMA letter does not make you legally responsible, it means that you may now be attempted to be made legally responsible. That you be be named party to the suit as well as the person who put the materials online. The rest of what you say I agree with, the blanket clearing out of all accounts/domains was unreasonable.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
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    NSW Australia
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    Not handled very well at all P-nut unless you were out for brownie points from the accuser. By scrapping the whole Reseller account you had a severe damaging effect on not only the Reseller but ALL of their clients.

    You chose your username well .... bully hosts just add another pimple on the butt of progress in this suffering industry.
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  13. #13
    if i was the reseller i would be pissed off... poorly handled
    --if this infringement was caused by a single client?
    i see no reason why you had too remove all his accounts when infact it was only 1 domain responsible & possibly wasn't the resellers fault @ all.
    If someone made a complaint of a domain on your server with copyright infringement too your datacenter and they removed all your accounts, and all your accounts got removed. You would be pissed off not?
    same example applies, except you have the power and not the datacenter. If your other resellers knew this they would definately feel insecure and possibly move.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    338
    1. Copy material you did not create
    2. Put it on a server you do not own, nor do you own the connection
    3. get mad when they dont allow you on their service anymore.

    Am I missing something here? What else should he do.... say, "bad bad boy, please dont do that again *slap on wrist*"

  15. #15
    Cope and if a datacenter did that to your server?
    technically you don't own the system at the datacenter, your in the same situation as the reseller both renting.. except 1 is renting a server 1 is renting server space.

    It doesn't look like the reseller was consulted at all. Why not suspend or remove that offending account... instead of ruining a business and all his clients just like a datacenter removing all your accounts on your rented server due to copyright infringement from possible 1/100 clients on your server... (same theory)

    Any reseller/dedicated server renter would feel insecure....
    Points 1.2.3. would still apply.

  16. #16
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    If you are in the US, no action needs to be taken until the accuser sends a formal DCMA letter stating specifically what he believes is his copyrighted info.
    We and our datacenter did receive a formal DMCA letter regarding this reseller. After checking a few things out (the accused account, the ownership of said domain), we determined it was the reseller's domain, and then asked the DC if we could just remove that domain or if the whole account had to go. They said get rid of the whole thing. (Let's face it - if it's the reseller adding it in the first place, what's to stop them from creating another domain and re-uploading?). The DC asked us to remove the entire account, and the letter asked that their hosting be terminated as well.

    As far as being a 'bully host' - you are so far off the mark. We would not ever send a client packing without doing some legwork first. That would not make us bullies; it would make us morons.

    It's simple - they uploaded copyrighted material (that wasn't their's - against our TOS), they were warned once before about it, and then a formal investigation was launched. We followed our TOS and our DC's wishes. We have other clients to consider as well.

  17. #17
    It's simple - they uploaded copyrighted material (that wasn't their's - against our TOS), they were warned once before about it, and then a formal investigation was launched. We followed our TOS and our DC's wishes. We have other clients to consider as well.

    if they were warned-- then i would agree you made a good decision

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    The South
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    It's a judgement call in these situations, if you feel the reseller IS the owner of the offending site then disabling the full reseller account is absolutely called for, if you feel the reseller is just an innocent victim of a customer then you pull back a bit and just disable the single account and give some stern reminders you do not tolerate such behavior.

    Regardless of what these folks say, in the end it's your business and you have to do what you think is right.
    Gary Harris - the artist formerly known as Dixiesys
    resident grumpy redneck

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Denver, CO
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    3,302
    WOW. I am floored ....

    In order to limit your liability as a hosting provider, there are proper procedures that you have to follow upon receiving a DMCA complaint. Immediately ****-canning your customer is not the correct path to go down. Both the accuser and person being accused have certain rights, and you, as a service provider, should have a DMCA policy posted to your web site and be registered with the US Registrar of Copyrights (www.copyrights.gov) - in order to protect yourself, which when dealing with such matters is all that you should be concerned about - protecting your own assets.

    http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/

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  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    ON, Canada
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    If I was you I would not worry about it, you stated in your TOS that breach of the agreement will result in a immediate termination of account and that will safe you from the trouble.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
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    484

    ???!!!???

    This is rather an interesting issue!

    I would personally have probably done the same if the case is that the DC has told me to remove the whole account instead of the domain & its contents.

    Reason being is that i would rather not have my server be shut down and lose more accounts then the reseller in question

    Thanks
    - James

  22. #22
    I hosted one user for free on my reseller account (he is starting designer, so i helped him). I gave him account with subdomains. So he created 2 subaccounts on those subdomains for his friends. And one of those his friends put warez on it. As soon as i noticed it I asked that user to remove that subdomain and host only his websites and he did it. But then I received very angry email from his friend who hosted warez with lots of threats including legal ones. So i told him to bugger off and never heard from him again.

    Normal people don't host warez or other stolen stuff. Only stupid people and kids do. And they have absolutely no clue about any of it. So when their account is closed they threaten with everything they ever heard on internet, sometimes even say that their lawyer will contact you. And always their threats appear to be nothing but bluff. I'm sure they are doing it in hope that you'll be scared and will give them account back. I had this once, and have seen other people having same problems and result is always the same.

  23. #23
    Maybe you can find out from them about the "Internet Crimes and hosting association" and report them for copyright violations? LOL

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