The problem isn't Mozilla, but rather FrontPage (or possibly Internet Explorer's rendering of the page). FrontPage often writes HTML that is invalid by W3C standards, and Internet Explorer's standards support is not much better. Mozilla's rendering engine (Gecko) is in my opinion the best on the market today (it is also utilized by Firefox and Netscape 7), and it is rare that display problems in Mozilla are actually due to a bug in Mozilla.
"Supposed" standard? It's THE standard. The entire web has been built around it from its inception. Gecko does an excellent job of rendering the spaghetti mess of tables that compose 95% of pages on today's web. If you want to talk non-compliance, look at IE. It has a number of horrendous bugs in dealing with modern, standards-compliant technologies that Gecko, KHTML, and Opera handle perfectly.
Ivan, you may want to look into another WYSIWYG editor such as Dreamweaver. Frontpage is just about the worst of the bunch in many aspects. An even better choice would be to learn to code by hand. HTML is really quite simple, so even if you have no experience with writing code, you should pick it up quickly. Modern technologies such as XHTML and CSS allow you to create pages that look almost identical in any modern browser, all with a fraction of the code that an editor such as Frontpage would produce.
pixetech, that is only because the webmaster didn't code his site properly. the webmaster only checked the site in IE, which renders code differently to all the other browsers (and invents standards, so sites made in IE don't work anywhere else).
I'm using the latest camino nightly build and no pages have rendered incorrectly yet.
...and the sad thing is, all these horrendous IE rendering (not security) bugs will never be fixed for the majority of internet users. Any IE updates (IE7 etc.) will be bundled with versions of windows. So to update to IE7, longhorn will be required. And that won't run in 90% of today's computers, seeing it's requirements (64mb 3d card, 3Ghz CPU just for the 'l33t fx' that the OS will have, such as windows that 'flap' for no reason and make it so you can't read their contents while dragging)
Originally posted by pixetech All I know is that if a site looks screwed in one browser, I switch to IE and it works. That makes it a more versatile browser, no matter what the reason why.
I won't even go into all the reasons why this argument is flawed. I don't think I need - it would be pretty obvious to any Web designer or even someone with only minimal coursework in logic.
Real web designers (as opposed to people who use FrontPage as Microsoft Word for the Internet) know that the future is CSS, and many HTML tags are being deprecated. Internet Explorer is now almost three years behind the curve - disgraceful for a company who stresses the importance of browser/Internet integration with their "leading-edge" operating system. Having been a designer in the past (and still doing quite a bit of it on the side), most of the sites I visit are by designers. For the most part, these designers are designing pages the way they should be designed: HTML for sematics, CSS for layout. And guess what? Internet Explorer won't display almost any of their pages correctly. Is that the designer's fault? No, they have simply chosen not to dumb down their designs for an obsolete browser. If people have problems viewing their page, they tell them to download a modern browser like Mozilla, Netscape 7, Firefox, Opera, or Safari. It isn't like there aren't alternatives (and very good ones). Sticking with Internet Explorer is either a sign of ignorance or apathy, and if a page only looks right in Internet Explorer, then the skills of the "designer" must be called into question.
Originally posted by pixetech A real browser will render w3c "standard" AND the code most people use. IE does that.
Have you read anything anyone else has posted in this thread? Rendering standards-compliant code is exactly what Internet Explorer will NOT do reliably. Sure it might render bad code correctly, but who cares? Microsoft created many of the non-standard tags that cause problems in other browsers, and those tags have mostly fallen out of use. Also, why do you differentiate between W3C standards and "the code most people use." The W3C decides what is and isn't HTML, XHTML, CSS, etc. If your HTML doesn't validate according to W3C standards, I don't know what it is, but it isn't HTML.
For more information I recommend you check out the World Wide Web Consortium's website at www.w3c.org. Hopefully your next post will be more informed as a result.
IE does not follow the w3c standards. For example... the width property in a DIV
Well hang on a minute, squire. You're talking about the box model, which IE5 and 5.5 do indeed screw up. But IE6 gets it right when in standards mode. Throw an XML declaration at the top of your page as you're supposed to do when writing XHTML and IE6 goes into "quirks mode", getting its box model calculation hopelessly wrong again.
The box model is the least of my concerns as a coder. There are tried and trusted techniques for getting round that little faux pas. But there are loads and loads of other, very cool, tricks I would love to use on my sites that I can't because IE is so hopelessly behind the times!
css goes here;
for example. Instead of having a class just for the purposes of styling a form element, why not do it by type? That's what this does. Works in Mozilla, not in IE. <abbr> for chrissakes! An HTML tag that does not, and never has worked properly in IE! So instead for years we've all be abusing <acronym>. It's little things like this - little things that 99% of the population couldn't care less about - that drive people who care about standards absolutely nuts!
However, there may just be a solution to all our woes just around the corner. http://www.dean.edwards.name/IE7/. Go read more, he'll be releasing a working version shortly. But from his intro page:
This is an attempt to make Microsoft Internet Explorer more compliant when it comes to web standards.
Web developers are becoming increasingly frustrated at the lack of convergence of the major browser vendors. We need a level playing field!
CSS is a powerful technology. Many of itís more advanced features go unused by web developers because of Explorerís poor support of CSS standards.
IE7 provides support for most of the important CSS enhancements. A full list is available on the compatibility page.
More often than not, Zopester has the answer, or at least knows who does. I think we need an "Ask Zopester" section in the design forum. I would certainly be using it often myself.
New topic....to play the devil's advocate here.....
OK, so IE sucks for this reason or that. The majority of consumers and non-techie types are still going to be using it, because it is what comes on their computer. So, isn't it a bit naive to just say..."I refuse to design around IE, and I'm going to do it the other way, so too bad if IE users can't view my site properly."
Are you willing to alienate the majority of Internet users, just so a small number of people can view your site properly? Is this really a smart decision?
I think we need an "Ask Zopester" section in the design forum.
I think I don't need any bigger of a head than I have already! But thank you. It's nice to know my pearls of wisdom don't go unnoticed...
It is entirely naive not to cater for IE if you deem your target audience to be IE users! Only you - as the designer/site owner can answer this. If your target audience will be using IE (or a proportion of them will be at least) I would say this: create a working, functional, and (if you can do it) pretty site that works across all platforms/browsers etc, and then add effects that those using Mozilla will see, without harming the functionality of the site for those using IE.
Dave Shea at Mezzoblue calls it MOSe - Mozilla, Opera, Safari enhancements. Nice.
Now, so as not to completely hijack this thread, I'll answer Ivan23's question and say your site looks fine in IE6 and Mozilla Firefox, but in IE5/5.5 the table isn't stretched full-screen. Now, I have to be honest here and say it's been so long since I designed a page using tables (see, it can be done, nay-sayers everywhere!) that I can't actually remember how to make it stretch!
Ah well...I'm sure given half an hour and some coffee I'd come up with something, but I'll leave it for you to puzzle over. Call it positive encouragement...