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  1. #26
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    Originally posted by dk2
    When was the last time Israel intentionally blew up a Palestenien teen night club?
    Never, instead Israelli helicopter gunships fire missles into buildings wiping out or injuring many of the perfectly innocent people inside just to get the one or two who happen to live inside the same apartment block who are guilty.

    Originally posted by dk2

    Yet your muslim clerics support these groups.
    In exactly the same way as many christian leaders in the US don't have a single word of criticism for the actions of Israel and therefore support a regime which ironically in several aspects behaves like the nazis.

  2. #27
    Originally posted by dk2
    Hold on Hold on

    The top Muslim clerics aren't saying anything purposely because they support this kind of radicalism (Yes, by staying quite you are supporting something). When was the last time you heard a Muslim cleric condem the group Hamas and call it an evil terrorist group, same goes for Al Qeada (sp). Why don't they do it? Maybe because many muslims believe in the things these guys are doing, or maybe they believe in it themselves?

    I'm gonna stay quiet about Iraq because I don't believe US troops should be there.

    As for the the 7 year old boy who died. I feel sorry for his family, if it really happened. The news media also distorts this. It seems to me everytime Israel does a military operation Palestenien children die, never fails and I hear it every news story (yet these deaths can not be confirmed). When was the last time Israel intentionally blew up a Palestenien teen night club? They don't and yet they get crucified in the news. Yet I have seen tons of news stories about Palesteniens blowing up Israeli teen night clubs, killing pregnant Israeli women, and murdering entire Jewish families in their homes. Yet your muslim clerics support these groups.
    I don't see any top Jewish clerics or any other clerics saying anything against what Israel does either. So I guess they do believe in the massacre of civilians and believe Israel is doing the right thing.

    As for your other point, you cant seriously believe the news media distorts things in FAVOR of the palestinians. If anything, its completely the opposite. You almost NEVER hear about the 'human' aspect of the casualties on the palestinian side. It's always '7 militants were killed' regardless of whether any of'em were children who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Israel NEVER gets crucified in the news. What are you talking about? As for the pregnant Israeli women, and entire families dying in their homes, I feel sorry for them...IF ITS TRUE.
    What muslim clerics support this?

    One MAJOR problem is the lack of coverage/ lack of access to media of the Muslim clerics. No one is ever around to hear the REAL sermons. Then you go and find the nutjob that says something stupid advocating violence and all of a sudden 'the top muslim clerics are supporting' this and that. How many Muslims do YOU know that are in the media spot light? Of the few that are, EVERY single one condemns violence against innocent civilians. Of ALL the jewish people that are in the spotlight, how many condemn Israel's actions.

    But I guess you wouldn't really want to see that, because then your whole belief system that Muslims support this would fall apart.

  3. #28
    I don't believe Israel's actions should be condemed. They go after the people who have been killing Israeli's for years. They go after the men who send young boys (the other day on cnn Israel stopped a child who was 14 that had a bomb strapped to him) to go blow themselves up. If these men are so rituious (sp) and believe in it so much why don't they go blow themselves up. They don't, instead they just send others whom they brain wash to do thr dirty work for them. Sending 14 year olds to go blow up Israeli's is asinine anyway you look at it. Ohh here is the article:

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...omb/index.html

    If Israel goes after these guys then I have no problem with it.

    Ohh you don't think the news is biased towards the Palesteniens. Go look how many times the word Refugee camp is used. These are not Refugee camps they are entire cities. The news media portrays it as if all Palesteniens were living in tents.

  4. #29
    Originally posted by bagpuss
    Never, instead Israelli helicopter gunships fire missles into buildings wiping out or injuring many of the perfectly innocent people inside just to get the one or two who happen to live inside the same apartment block who are guilty.
    Whats the alternative? Sending troops in and having many Israeli troops die and many more Palesteniens dead?



    In exactly the same way as many christian leaders in the US don't have a single word of criticism for the actions of Israel and therefore support a regime which ironically in several aspects behaves like the nazis. [/B]

    Why don't you explain how the Israeli's act like the Nazi's?

    I have never heard of Israel rounding up Palesteniens and sending them to death camps. Maybe you could correct me instead of just making idiotic statements.

  5. #30
    Originally posted by dk2
    I don't believe Israel's actions should be condemed.
    That says it all right there. Maybe you should learn to see both sides of the story before making idiotic statements.

    Oh , and you can now go back to being brainwashed by FOX news by the way.

  6. #31
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    Originally posted by dk2

    Why don't you explain how the Israeli's act like the Nazi's?

    I have never heard of Israel rounding up Palesteniens and sending them to death camps. Maybe you could correct me instead of just making idiotic statements.
    What about rounding certain group of people based only on their nationality and preventing them from accessing their workplaces and schools. Eventualy, with their access to education and money restricted they have a good chance of dieing out. I do not say that israel and nazzies are simmilar in other ways, but some practices are the same ones used on some jews in ww2. I do not feel like going through the news but there was post here describing the palestinian village that was surrounded by wall, and soldiers controll only exit. The were not put in death camp, death camp was brought to them

  7. #32
    Originally posted by sasha
    What about rounding certain group of people based only on their nationality and preventing them from accessing their workplaces and schools. Eventualy, with their access to education and money restricted they have a good chance of dieing out. I do not say that israel and nazzies are simmilar in other ways, but some practices are the same ones used on some jews in ww2. I do not feel like going through the news but there was post here describing the palestinian village that was surrounded by wall, and soldiers controll only exit. The were not put in death camp, death camp was brought to them
    Umm Israel dosen't prevent Palesteniens from accessing work and schools they prevent them (during times of high alert) from accessing Israeli workplaces and schools. As which they should because if they didn't Israel would be filling more and more caskets everyday. You don't let the people who are trying to kill you into your neighborhood, it just dosen't make sense.

    As for the the palestenien village surrounded by a wall please show me the news article. Just because you say it dosen't make it so.

  8. #33
    Originally posted by speedy007h
    That says it all right there. Maybe you should learn to see both sides of the story before making idiotic statements.

    Oh , and you can now go back to being brainwashed by FOX news by the way.
    I do see both sides of the story, I just happen to see one side as right and the other side as wrong.

    For your information I don't watch FOX news (I prefer MSNBC) and I'm not a republican.

  9. #34
    Originally posted by dk2
    I do see both sides of the story, I just happen to see one side as right and the other side as wrong.

    For your information I don't watch FOX news (I prefer MSNBC) and I'm not a republican.
    Then your vision is F&*ked up

  10. #35
    Originally posted by speedy007h
    Then your vision is F&*ked up
    You know what?

    Maybe if you could produce some evidence (news, editorials, etc.) I would change my mind.

    But people like you can't and don't. You just say my view point is wrong and yet you can't dispute any facts I put foward. Basically all you are trying to do is drown my voice out by screaming I'm wrong.

  11. #36
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Umm Israel dosen't prevent Palesteniens from accessing work and schools they prevent them (during times of high alert) from accessing Israeli workplaces and schools. As which they should because if they didn't Israel would be filling more and more caskets everyday. You don't let the people who are trying to kill you into your neighborhood, it just dosen't make sense.
    Heh, now you just playing with words. Nazzies used to say that they building ara ghettos for jews for their own protection.


    As for the the palestenien village surrounded by a wall please show me the news article. Just because you say it dosen't make it so.
    I cannot find original article, but here is my post about it, and the original link.
    http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...hreadid=204491

  12. #37
    I don't see the original article, therefore I can't speak about it. I suggest you go find it instead of giving me a blank newsday page.

  13. #38
    Originally posted by dk2
    You know what?

    Maybe if you could produce some evidence (news, editorials, etc.) I would change my mind.

    But people like you can't and don't. You just say my view point is wrong and yet you can't dispute any facts I put foward. Basically all you are trying to do is drown my voice out by screaming I'm wrong.
    You know what ?

    Maybe if YOU could produce some evidence to show why You're right, I would agree with you.

    I see the issue as two sided. As I've already said before, using religion to justify violence against a people and committing crimes against innocents is wrong. So is committing the same crimes but getting away with it using the 'self defense' argument. You see it as completely one sided which suggests that you WILLINGLY refuse to see evidence that has already been presented out there to show its not all one sided. There's nothing anyone can do in this case to change your mind. People like YOU are zealots and are just as bad as those blowing themselves up. All indications are that you choose to ignore the evidence of Israel's crimes because you are anti-muslim. It's funny how anytime someone says something against a Jewish person , and even though he has a valid reason for it, he's automatically branded 'anti-semite' but ther's no such thing for people who do it to muslims.

    You haven't put forward any facts. Basically you try to scream and drown out the other voices that are trying to alert people as to what is REALLY going on.

    You don't see Israel constantly creating their so called 'settlements' more and more? How do they do this? By 'displacing' the people who live there. By demolishing their homes. And GOD forbid the man who owns the home comes out to defend himself, his family, and his home and he's branded as a terrorist and a 'militant' and gunned down. ANd in the news its said 'a militant was killed'. ANd YOU support this. You aren't any different from those you 'clerics' you seem to hate.

    And if the tables were turned and it was your home being demolished and you came out to defend it, then I'd bet you'd be singing a different tune. The fact that you want to discount the suffering of hundreds of thousands says a lot.

  14. #39
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    Originally posted by dk2
    I don't see the original article, therefore I can't speak about it. I suggest you go find it instead of giving me a blank newsday page.
    Article was originally published by AP, and they require payment to access the archive.

    Here is article and some facts at un.org
    http://www.un.org/unrwa/emergency/ba...es/jubara.html

    and couple more related ones:
    http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-cathy110903.htm
    http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/70.shtml

    I did not want to post the last two links because those look like very bias sites, but the storry seems to be the same one posted by Newsday. If you take out all opinoins, the facts still remain and can be crossreferenced with UN appeal. Village name is Jubara.

  15. #40
    Originally posted by speedy007h
    You know what ?

    Maybe if YOU could produce some evidence to show why You're right, I would agree with you.

    I see the issue as two sided. As I've already said before, using religion to justify violence against a people and committing crimes against innocents is wrong. So is committing the same crimes but getting away with it using the 'self defense' argument. You see it as completely one sided which suggests that you WILLINGLY refuse to see evidence that has already been presented out there to show its not all one sided. There's nothing anyone can do in this case to change your mind. People like YOU are zealots and are just as bad as those blowing themselves up. All indications are that you choose to ignore the evidence of Israel's crimes because you are anti-muslim. It's funny how anytime someone says something against a Jewish person , and even though he has a valid reason for it, he's automatically branded 'anti-semite' but ther's no such thing for people who do it to muslims.

    You haven't put forward any facts. Basically you try to scream and drown out the other voices that are trying to alert people as to what is REALLY going on.

    You don't see Israel constantly creating their so called 'settlements' more and more? How do they do this? By 'displacing' the people who live there. By demolishing their homes. And GOD forbid the man who owns the home comes out to defend himself, his family, and his home and he's branded as a terrorist and a 'militant' and gunned down. ANd in the news its said 'a militant was killed'. ANd YOU support this. You aren't any different from those you 'clerics' you seem to hate.

    And if the tables were turned and it was your home being demolished and you came out to defend it, then I'd bet you'd be singing a different tune. The fact that you want to discount the suffering of hundreds of thousands says a lot.
    Israel is committing self defense. They are defending themslves against a people who will stop at nothing to kill Israeli's. Your saying that Israeli's settlements are only built from the ashes of town down palestenien homes? If you are, you are dead wrong.

    Israel won the land in war and it is their land. Lets not forget why they had to fight these wars. Arab/Muslim countries around them decided Israeli's needed to die. Anyone who says that Israel only has to give the land back and their will be peace only has to look at the past Israeli wars to see that is not true.

    I'm not anti-muslim. I could care less if your muslim. What I am is pro-jewish life. The muslim countries around Israel only want to see it fall or play a hand in it falling so they can finish up Hitler's work. By the same token I could call you anti-jew and a nazi sympathizer.

  16. #41
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    dk2 it seems to me clearly that your mind is clearly made up of what is wrong and what is right before this thread!

    Before you go on quoting me and tell me how wrong i am...you did quote me already did you even bother to read it?

    If you did you would know I already said top clerics do speak against such things and often do call these so called 'top clerics' not muslim...now if your news sources don't carry such news...there isn't much i can do abt that or anybody else for that matter.

    hopefully now that we are clear on this...I see that you support isreal well just between you and me....I won't get into prove this or prove that or facts as we all already know what is going on...how abt you look up the # of deaths from both sides in the last month? or maybe 3 months or even 6 months? how abt it just gather them up and lets see on which side more children died...how many times houses were blown up and families were killed in there?

    I am not in anway saying this good it so you know isreal isn't doing any good but rather uses more force than it should and that takes lot of innocent ppl to there deaths...how many times a isreali gunship has fired missiles in a crowded place...and how many ppl got hurt and die in the last 2 months...ever thought abt that?

    it isn't abt who is wrong here and who is right some time its better to forget such things. This is endless cycle...put yourself in there position don't think abt the gov't body but rather inncocent ppl...think abt your child dying or family members....you forget the people who carry such attacks...aren't doing it for money or least not in most cases but a cause that they think is right...hell not many of us would go do that unless we really thought there was point.

    Just so you know...such attacks are never supported by most muslims by muslims or top clerics but what is supported is a fight against the isreal however...we all know these ppl have no army no tanks no gunships...and ppl tend to look the other way on these attacks what they do support is moral cause it doesn't mean they support taking innocent people deaths.

    This is why most muslims tend to dislike the US as well...becouse it is the US that protects isreal and funds them or else I am sure you know what would happen. Other than pakistan most islamic countries can't even produce weapons to even protect themselves so they would rather not take it to the US as we already know few bombs here and there...and they be done.

    US gives isreal so much miltary support what if the other side got much as that support from other countries...than you won't have to worry abt guys blowing themselves but a war...either way ppl are going to die.

    Now coming back to the point I made earlier both parties need to sit and work some thing out and if the US is actually concerned abt anything other than oil they should force results and be fair...I remember just in last year or so few times they promised to hold the bombings in isreal but instead isreal try to kill the leaders...now that would surely piss them off wouldn't it?

    anyhow I do not support such acts against isreal but do support there cause...and some time I feel there isn't much they can do...so they take terror to the people so the people would change the gov't n bring in some folks who can work out things...no way i am saying the leaders on the other side are any smarter..

    dk2 I have no clue what msnbc is reporting for you but i do see reports on how ppl have been forced out of there houses children have to wait in line for hours 'everyday' to goto school...these ppl can't farm on there own land...trust me if this was happening to anyone in the US wow I would like to know how they would react...

  17. #42
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    dk2 it seems to me clearly that your mind is clearly made up of what is wrong and what is right before this thread!

    Before you go on quoting me and tell me how wrong i am...you did quote me already did you even bother to read it?

    If you did you would know I already said top clerics do speak against such things and often do call these so called 'top clerics' not muslim...now if your news sources don't carry such news...there isn't much i can do abt that or anybody else for that matter.

    hopefully now that we are clear on this...I see that you support isreal well just between you and me....I won't get into prove this or prove that or facts as we all already know what is going on...how abt you look up the # of deaths from both sides in the last month? or maybe 3 months or even 6 months? how abt it just gather them up and lets see on which side more children died...how many times houses were blown up and families were killed in there?

    I am not in anway saying this good it so you know isreal isn't doing any good but rather uses more force than it should and that takes lot of innocent ppl to there deaths...how many times a isreali gunship has fired missiles in a crowded place...and how many ppl got hurt and die in the last 2 months...ever thought abt that?

    it isn't abt who is wrong here and who is right some time its better to forget such things. This is endless cycle...put yourself in there position don't think abt the gov't body but rather inncocent ppl...think abt your child dying or family members....you forget the people who carry such attacks...aren't doing it for money or least not in most cases but a cause that they think is right...hell not many of us would go do that unless we really thought there was point.

    Just so you know...such attacks are never supported by most muslims by muslims or top clerics but what is supported is a fight against the isreal however...we all know these ppl have no army no tanks no gunships...and ppl tend to look the other way on these attacks what they do support is moral cause it doesn't mean they support taking innocent people deaths.

    This is why most muslims tend to dislike the US as well...becouse it is the US that protects isreal and funds them or else I am sure you know what would happen. Other than pakistan most islamic countries can't even produce weapons to even protect themselves so they would rather not take it to the US as we already know few bombs here and there...and they be done.

    US gives isreal so much miltary support what if the other side got much as that support from other countries...than you won't have to worry abt guys blowing themselves but a war...either way ppl are going to die.

    Now coming back to the point I made earlier both parties need to sit and work some thing out and if the US is actually concerned abt anything other than oil they should force results and be fair...I remember just in last year or so few times they promised to hold the bombings in isreal but instead isreal try to kill the leaders...now that would surely piss them off wouldn't it?

    anyhow I do not support such acts against isreal but do support there cause...and some time I feel there isn't much they can do...so they take terror to the people so the people would change the gov't n bring in some folks who can work out things...no way i am saying the leaders on the other side are any smarter..

    dk2 I have no clue what msnbc is reporting for you but i do see reports on how ppl have been forced out of there houses children have to wait in line for hours 'everyday' to goto school...these ppl can't farm on there own land...trust me if this was happening to anyone in the US wow I would like to know how they would react...



    Ditto!

  18. #43
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    Edit: I thought it was bit over the top

  19. #44
    Originally posted by sasha
    Article was originally published by AP, and they require payment to access the archive.

    Here is article and some facts at un.org
    http://www.un.org/unrwa/emergency/ba...es/jubara.html
    Who provided this UN study, dosen't say (maybe some palesteniens who want sympathy). I do believe it is true though. But at first you said there was only one way in and one way out. I saw a couple of ways. It also says that the soldiers only open the gate when the "mood" strikes them. I look at that and already see that the link is biased.

    Also on this page it says see case study "Isolation of two refugee-owned houses in Ras village, Tulkarm’ (Oct. 2003)." I tried to find this study but couldn't, maybe you could show me?

    and couple more related ones:
    http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-cathy110903.htm
    http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/70.shtml

    I did not want to post the last two links because those look like very bias sites, but the storry seems to be the same one posted by Newsday. If you take out all opinoins, the facts still remain and can be crossreferenced with UN appeal. Village name is Jubara.
    You said it these links are biased. Did you even read some of the other articles on these sites?

    This link struck me as funny:

    http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-cathy110903.htm

    Look at the end of it:

    "Names have been withheld to protect the identities of the authors." mmm hmmm

    No author for the other link to?

  20. #45
    The endless cycle will not stop, now that I have read your websites you have posted I encourage you guys to read this one:

    http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html

  21. #46
    I aqlso encourage you to read this link:

    http://www.detnews.com/2002/nation/0...a06-601616.htm

    Which seemed pretty fair to me. Also check out this link:

    http://www-tech.mit.edu/V122/N43/col43kaufm.43c.html

    I don't put much weight on it because he dosen't list his sources

  22. #47
    Originally posted by dk2

    Israel is committing self defense. They are defending themslves against a people who will stop at nothing to kill Israeli's. Your saying that Israeli's settlements are only built from the ashes of town down palestenien homes? If you are, you are dead wrong.

    I'm not anti-muslim. I could care less if your muslim. What I am is pro-jewish life. The muslim countries around Israel only want to see it fall or play a hand in it falling so they can finish up Hitler's work. By the same token I could call you anti-jew and a nazi sympathizer.
    And you would be wrong because the difference between you and me is that I am pro Muslim-life but not at the cost of killing innocent israelis/jews. You are pro-jewish life but you don't care how many thousand innocent muslims are killed, so yes you ARE anti-muslim. Muslim countries around Israel only want to see muslims be able to walk out without getting killed. Israel wants to keep using this 'Hitler's work' argument to kill as many Muslims as it can.

    That self defense ******** doesn't fly with me. That's just the way its spun to cover up the crimes. No I'm not wrong. A lot of palestinian homes ARE demolished to make these settlements and that can't be denied.

    It's obvious I'm not going to get anywhere arguing with a morally bankrupt 'not anti-muslim' person who's already madeup his mind about what's what. Enjoy your bliss in bigot-land.

  23. #48
    hahaha

    Whatever you wanna say man. So now because I don't believe in your beliefs I'm:

    anti-muslim
    morally bankrupt


    riiight.

    Why don't you look at it from the otherside of the fence, what would you want to do to the men who send a young plaestenien to an Israeli teen night club and killed your 16 year old child.

    You say you look at it from both sides of the fence but you have not even begun to look.

    Have you even read about the 3 wars Israel has fought and why they have fought them. To say if Israel gives this land back there will be peace in the middle east is bull crap. They didn't have these lands before and yet they were attacked or provoked by their arab neighbors (often times outnumbered and fighting on three fronts).

    If I was anti-muslim I would probably be for the Iraq war, yet I'm not. Why it is none of the U.S.'s business what happeneds there or who rules there.

    What is our business is when one of our allies has been continuosly attacked by its arab neighbors who want to execute every single one of them. I can't close my eyes to pure hatred by many Islamic extremist who would like nothing more then to kill the last Jew themselves.

  24. #49
    No I said that NOT because you don't have the same beliefs as me but because of other reasons I already stated in my posts. If you didn't get that, I'm not going to waste my time repeating it. As I've also mentioned, I have looked at it from the other side. Which is exactly why I acknowledge that the problem occurs because of both sides' unwillingness to continue the cycle of violence- something which you refuse to acknowledge. I also cannot close my eyes to pure hatred by the Jewish extremists (such as Ariel Sharon and his Likud party) who want nothing more than to kill the last Muslim themselves. So my position stands, since you fail to condemn these same actions on your side, you are just as morally culpable as you make other people out to be. I'm done with this thread. You can have the last word if you want.

  25. #50
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Whats the alternative? Sending troops in and having many Israeli troops die and many more Palesteniens dead?
    No sending troops in and having less death, exactly how less sick countries handle the same situation.

    Originally posted by dk2

    Why don't you explain how the Israeli's act like the Nazi's?

    I have never heard of Israel rounding up Palesteniens and sending them to death camps. Maybe you could correct me instead of just making idiotic statements.
    Well you are cetainly there to be corrected aren't you, where did I mention death camps? I'll help you out as you clearly have some trouble reading, I didn't.

    I mentioned in aspects they act like the Nazis, primarily driving people based on there nationaltiy from their homes and creating ghettos, the notion of a "final transfer" is supported by a number of cabinet members in the ruling Likud government, by leading Labour Party members and professors and media commentators, the euphimisim "transfer" was also used by the Nazis, the rest of us call it "ethnic cleansing".

    Not only is it a case of people being removed from their homes and lands, they are the roads, the Palestinains are having their land divided up by roads that only settlers and soldiers are allowed to use, again another method to make life as difficult as possible for the Palestinians, create ghettos and to try and force them out.

    Originally posted by dk2

    Israel is committing self defense.

    Israel won the land in war and it is their land. Lets not forget why they had to fight these wars.
    Self defense, that is priceless, Israel was created from terrorism against the British by Zionist terror groups, why don't you a search for the King David hotel, you might learn something.
    Last edited by bagpuss; 03-28-2004 at 06:33 AM.

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