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  1. #1
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    Microsoft faces huge fine, forced to re-build Windows XP by EU

    Gone.

  2. #2


    well arn't they milking microsoft as much as they can? I couldn't help but to grin a bit when I read that... but its still a bit wrong.

    mixed feelings.


    Best,
    Eugene.
    IWDN - Really smart web developers... and me!
    More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads.
    One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction.
    Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.

  3. #3
    To be honest.. I couldnt care less is they sued Microsoft till they were gone, they cost me $100's in parts due to a windows bug which wore my parts out early..

  4. #4
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    There will probably be 6 appeals before anything is done.

    By which time XP will be outdated anyways.

  5. #5
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    Im glad this is being done!!!!!!!!!

    Finally someone is taking a stand!!!!!!!!!

    The Dude

  6. #6
    Originally posted by The Dude
    Im glad this is being done!!!!!!!!!

    Finally someone is taking a stand!!!!!!!!!

    The Dude
    Taking a stang against what exactly?

    A lot of people are "taking a stand" against microsoft... its not the only OS out there, use something else like a mac, or linux and your taking a stand.

    this however is just milking money from microsoft in anyway they can...
    IWDN - Really smart web developers... and me!
    More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads.
    One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction.
    Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by websterworld
    this however is just milking money from microsoft in anyway they can...
    Fines are a fairly standard punishment for those that break the law, so how is fining microsoft for breaking the law milking money?

  8. #8
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    It's the users lack of common sense to properly secure their systems that results in the high number of attacks on Windows based users. Mac, Linux and Unix users as attacked each and everyday, but their systems are properly secured. When you are the manufactor for an Operatin System that makes up almost 85% of the World's computers, you will have problems - bugs - security holes.

    Microsoft, unlike other companies, gives their updates for free. Many anti-virus companies give you 1 free year of updates, while MS, gives you lifetime.

    I believe the EU Committee is wasting our time, Microsoft's time - everyones time.

    When SP 2 is released for Windows XP, there shall be tons of improvements. But if users don't upgrade, how is MS at fault?

  9. #9
    Originally posted by bagpuss
    Fines are a fairly standard punishment for those that break the law, so how is fining microsoft for breaking the law milking money?
    Besides infacting the world with crappy software, and breaking the law lots of times... what did microsoft actually do this time?

    They are fined for having WMP9 togther with windows XP. I don't think they broke the law, yes WMP9 is crap, but you dont have to use it, you dont have to use windows at all either.

    In my opinion the European Union is pushing a bit hard, because they want the money.

    Not that I'm pro microsoft in any way...

    just seems a bit much, don't you think?

    *shrugs*

    Best,
    Eugene.
    IWDN - Really smart web developers... and me!
    More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads.
    One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction.
    Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by websterworld
    Besides infacting the world with crappy software, and breaking the law lots of times... what did microsoft actually do this time?

    They are fined for having WMP9 togther with windows XP. I don't think they broke the law, yes WMP9 is crap, but you dont have to use it, you dont have to use windows at all either.
    Well they have broken the law, anti-tust laws in the exactly the same way they did with their browser by trying to use their monopoly (or near monopoly) in the OS market to start pushing other products on consumers in an attempt to wipe out the competition.

    Also the case is in two parts, one about bundling windows media player, the other about Microsoft using it's dominant client position to improve it's position in servers.


    Originally posted by websterworld

    just seems a bit much, don't you think?
    Not really, if I get caught speeding I get fined, not because the government wants some extra cash, but because there has to be a penalty for breaking the law, if I didn't break the law then I wouldn't be fined, the same applies to Microsoft.

  11. #11
    Ok well I see your point.
    HOWEVER, this isn't the first time microsoft got sued like that.

    they have already paid a lot, I'm not a judge I dont know if they have paid enough or not.

    I still can't help but wonder however...


    Either way, its good news for me.


    Best,
    Eugene.
    IWDN - Really smart web developers... and me!
    More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads.
    One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction.
    Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by websterworld


    well arn't they milking microsoft as much as they can? I couldn't help but to grin a bit when I read that... but its still a bit wrong.

    mixed feelings.


    Best,
    Eugene.
    If they were to milk M$ "as much as they can", it'd be hundred of billions Euros instead of hundred of millions like the news stated. So I am actually disappointed.

    But generally, makes a good start.

  13. #13
    got to start somewhere

    microsoft however doesn't have hundreds of billions... only dozens. but who's counting?


    Best,
    Eugene.
    IWDN - Really smart web developers... and me!
    More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads.
    One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction.
    Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.

  14. #14
    clearly, you have no firsthand experience with being on the short end of the redmond stick. in my last software engineering position, ive had to spend countless hours and lose many a hair trying to work around interoperability issues with certain microsoft implementations of certain protocols. interestingly enough, there has been a judgement ordering them to pony up the goods to make those problems go away well before then, but they naturally ignored it and went on their marry way. i say, pay up microsoft.

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  15. #15
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    Originally posted by websterworld
    Ok well I see your point.
    HOWEVER, this isn't the first time microsoft got sued like that.

    they have already paid a lot, I'm not a judge I dont know if they have paid enough or not.
    You could say that they payed enough once when they are in the same situation as all companies and developers that were affected with their ilegal business parctices - out of business. Till then "milking" them in any way is fair game.

  16. #16
    Guys I'm not against microsoft losing money in any way!

    I was just wondering if there was some extra motivation for the EU to make them pay... I have conspiracy paranoia. harsh medical state, I take pills.


    In short, I was (probably) wrong.


    Best,
    Eugene.
    IWDN - Really smart web developers... and me!
    More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads.
    One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction.
    Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.

  17. #17
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    Whether you like Microsoft or not there is one major thing that concerns me here... did anyone ask users what they want?

    In these multimedia times users expect your PC when it arrives to play movie and sound files, not have to go on the net to download a music player especially when you have no idea what they are called and who makes them. If you don't like windows media and you know another product... install that instead (it's not hard really is it?)

    Apple ships with quicktime and iTunes... does that mean apple will have to remove it?

    Linux distros usually ship with a few movie and sound players does that mean they are breaking the law too?

    To my knowledge whist Windows does come with WMP it doesn't prevent any other players installing or taking over the default file types.

    Microsoft became a monopoly through business... good or bad but they built it up mainly because they beat the competition. The only thing that annoys me about Microsoft is the number of serious flaws discovered.

    </rant>

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by Rich2k
    Whether you like Microsoft or not there is one major thing that concerns me here... did anyone ask users what they want?

    In these multimedia times users expect your PC when it arrives to play movie and sound files, not have to go on the net to download a music player especially when you have no idea what they are called and who makes them. If you don't like windows media and you know another product... install that instead (it's not hard really is it?)
    The issue with windows media player is not simply that it is there, but that it is embedded just like IE was and that it is not simply a case of being able to play or view media files, but that it is used as a jumping-off point for selling other services.

    It is also forgetting the other half of the case about Microsoft unfairly restricting access to it's code and keys, particularly in relation to interopeability.

    Originally posted by Rich2k

    Apple ships with quicktime and iTunes... does that mean apple will have to remove it?
    As apple only has a tiny percent of the market it is not subject to laws dealing with abusing a position of monopoly.

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by bagpuss
    The issue with windows media player is not simply that it is there, but that it is embedded just like IE was and that it is not simply a case of being able to play or view media files, but that it is used as a jumping-off point for selling other services.

    It is also forgetting the other half of the case about Microsoft unfairly restricting access to it's code and keys, particularly in relation to interopeability.
    I tried removing Windows Media Player from my machine. Well, it removed the entry in the Start menu, and most of the codecs. But it's still there, and acts as the default player for a bunch of files.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by Rob83
    It's the users lack of common sense to properly secure their systems that results in the high number of attacks on Windows based users. Mac, Linux and Unix users as attacked each and everyday, but their systems are properly secured. When you are the manufactor for an Operatin System that makes up almost 85% of the World's computers, you will have problems - bugs - security holes.

    Microsoft, unlike other companies, gives their updates for free. Many anti-virus companies give you 1 free year of updates, while MS, gives you lifetime.

    I believe the EU Committee is wasting our time, Microsoft's time - everyones time.

    When SP 2 is released for Windows XP, there shall be tons of improvements. But if users don't upgrade, how is MS at fault?
    Originally posted by Rich2k
    Whether you like Microsoft or not there is one major thing that concerns me here... did anyone ask users what they want?

    In these multimedia times users expect your PC when it arrives to play movie and sound files, not have to go on the net to download a music player especially when you have no idea what they are called and who makes them. If you don't like windows media and you know another product... install that instead (it's not hard really is it?)

    Apple ships with quicktime and iTunes... does that mean apple will have to remove it?

    Linux distros usually ship with a few movie and sound players does that mean they are breaking the law too?

    To my knowledge whist Windows does come with WMP it doesn't prevent any other players installing or taking over the default file types.

    Microsoft became a monopoly through business... good or bad but they built it up mainly because they beat the competition. The only thing that annoys me about Microsoft is the number of serious flaws discovered.

    </rant>
    Very well said by both. Took the words right out of my mouth.

    The anti-microsoft bandwagon, more often than not, reminds me of young kids striking out against their parents or guardians. Most of them don't even understand or comprehend what they claim to be 'against', but they just know it's an authority figure, therefore it must be bad. LOL

    Long Live Microsoft..... That's right, I said it.

    (p.s. - just please fix the bugs/flaws)

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by bagpuss
    As apple only has a tiny percent of the market it is not subject to laws dealing with abusing a position of monopoly.
    And is that Microsoft's fault that Apple isn't as big. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Apple have a GUI operating system before Microsoft? Just because Microsoft actually managed to make a success of their business (whether you like their business practices or not they are one of the most successful companies in the world) they are persecuted.

    Does it matter if you can't remove WMP? Just don't use it ever and default the file types to something else. If you don't like WMP in Windows don't buy Windows... you know it's there!

    For instance everyone complains that Windows in insecure... then in XP SP2 they will enable the firewall by default... fantastic... now everyone complains they are going to kill another market off. Microsoft can't win with some people can they?

    A firewall is a REQUIREMENT on a PC these days. You can become infected within 15 minutes with an unprotected PC on the net. OK that's slightly off topic but still the logic is still true.

    I use Windows as my primary desktop mainly because I have an awful lot of Windows software and I use my OSX desktop as backup... I've also got Linux but to be honest in my opinion it's got an awful long way to go if it wants to become a mainstream consumer OS. Who really needs 10 different ways to run things. The 'start menu' for want of a better phrase, is far too cluttered for a joe bloggs home user and everything is still in techy speak.
    Last edited by Rich2k; 03-14-2004 at 07:59 PM.

  22. #22
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    Originally posted by Rich2k
    And is that Microsoft's fault that Apple isn't as big.
    No, nor did I say anything of the sort, likewise it's not Apples fault that companies in very dominant market positions have to obey anti-competiton laws.

    Originally posted by Rich2k
    Just because Microsoft actually managed to make a success of their business (whether you like their business practices or not they are one of the most successful companies in the world) they are persecuted.
    Microsoft are not being pesecuted, they have a near monopoly and as such have to obey anti-trust laws for the protection of the consumer, it's simple Microsoft have broken those anti-trust laws yet again, it's not Apples fault or anyone elses, it's Microsofts.

  23. #23
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    Why shouldnt they be allowed to embed whatever they like?

    Ya Ya this has been discussed before with the Browser case, but I dont see why they cant do what they like with their own software?
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  24. #24
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    Originally posted by UH-Matt
    I dont see why they cant do what they like with their own software?
    Because the consumer has to be protected from companies who abuse their dominant market position.

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by UH-Matt
    Why shouldnt they be allowed to embed whatever they like?

    Ya Ya this has been discussed before with the Browser case, but I dont see why they cant do what they like with their own software?
    Think about it this way. Price for Windows goes up significantly because Microsoft decided to embed Office into it.

    Or, that Microsoft decides that file extensions are hard coded to be opened by their applications. So with any third-party app, you'd have to open the program and then choose to open the file.

  26. #26
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    Originally posted by bagpuss
    Because the consumer has to be protected from companies who abuse their dominant market position.
    Why? It's not like there aren't any alternatives.

    If you are so unhappy with WMP in Windows go buy Linux or MacOSX.

    Microsoft should be able to embed whatever they want in their OWN software.... if you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple as that.

  27. #27
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    this situation is a paradox. There are to sides to the story, and you can keep on going backwards and forward, and you wont get anywhere, simply as that. It isn't microsofts fault that apple is small and it isn't apples fault that microsoft is big.

    HOWEVER, there are laws in place that Microsoft must agree to, and whether you agree with the laws or not is not the matter of discussion, Microsoft broke the law.......and Microsoft must cough up. Anyhow, fining Microsoft a few million wont do anything, the only thing that will hurt Microsoft badly is if it is split into to companies, one to make the OS and one to make the software, and if Microsoft doesn't clean up its act, this may happen.

  28. #28
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    The US government has to be careful when punishing Microsoft. If they got a severe punishment like threatened to be split, they could just move their HQ out of the USA... that would severely harm the US economy AND the reserve (as Microsoft is worth an awful lot of money and to just pick that up and move it to another country would cost the US banks loads).

    Personally I can't see that ever happening.

    You know what I think about it. It shows that if you make your business too successful you get punished.

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by Rich2k
    The US government has to be careful when punishing Microsoft. If they got a severe punishment like threatened to be split, they could just move their HQ out of the USA... that would severely harm the US economy AND the reserve (as Microsoft is worth an awful lot of money and to just pick that up and move it to another country would cost the US banks loads).
    that is a very true and interesting point, however would Microsoft actually do that or would they just take the punishment and stay in the US. It would be very time consuming and costly for them to move overseas, and at the same time most of their employees wouldn't move with them (unless they were paid well

    But it would als be costly for MS to be split.....mmmmm paradox

  30. #30
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    Originally posted by Rich2k
    It shows that if you make your business too successful you get punished.
    Or that if you break anti-competition laws you will be punished for it.

  31. #31
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    I think its easy for us to say "Oh that was wrong, they shouldn't have bundled WMP9 with Windows XP" but in all reality, once your as big a company as microsoft is, you move in all directions, and although the law prohibits monopolies, there is no stopping what the consumers perceive your company to be.

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