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  1. #1
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    Server for a VERY large site.

    Hey guys,
    I just wanted your opinion on a site one of my friends is planning and what kinda of server (s) he needs. This is what hes having on it:
    "there will be a TV show section where people can watch a 30 minute **********.tv show weekly. There will be a message forum, person to person chatting, a video sections with clips from the nightclubs and a photo section and 2mb of storage for ever member."

    There will be an average of 200-1000 Users on at any 1 time.
    How much GB of bandwidth do you think this will use and what kinda of servers? It has got to be alot of bandwidth for all the video streaming.

    Thanks for your opinion.

    Jeff
    Xoopiter.com:: The new standard in Web Hosting

  2. #2
    Dual Opteron, couple gigs of RAM, SCSI hardware raid, and FreeBSD-5.2 on top should handle the load.

    Bandwidth - hm, perhaps 10mbps unmetered?

    regards,
    M.
    Powered by AMD & FreeBSD.
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  3. #3
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    Originally posted by Miha
    Dual Opteron, couple gigs of RAM, SCSI hardware raid, and FreeBSD-5.2 on top should handle the load.

    Bandwidth - hm, perhaps 10mbps unmetered?

    regards,
    M.
    Either that, or

    Dual Intel Xeon 3.0 w/HyperThreading
    1GB DDR RAM (or more)
    120GB IDE or 73GB SCSI (or two)
    10MBPS bandwidth (metered or unmetered)
    FreeBSD or Linux Red Hat, Mandrake, or Debian Operating System.
    Cost you about $600-$1,500 per month.
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  4. #4
    be wary of IDE drives for the purpose.. size in not an issue, but the drive arch. (IDE vs. SCSI) is.

    regards,
    M.
    Powered by AMD & FreeBSD.
    "Documentation is like sex:
    when it is good, it is very, very good;
    and when it is bad, it is better than nothing."

  5. #5
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    I think you are all underqouting the bandwidth side.
    If this is supposed to be a TV show the quality needs to be decent or people wont watch it.
    IMO any stream below 50KBps would be considered low quality (when your paying to watch a tv show it better be good quality and good story -- right?)
    at 50KBps per stream and 200 concurrent viewers thats 80mbit/s..
    I know these are big numbers but imho its only fair to give people decent picture quality if they pay.

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by Noam
    I think you are all underqouting the bandwidth side.
    If this is supposed to be a TV show the quality needs to be decent or people wont watch it.
    IMO any stream below 50KBps would be considered low quality (when your paying to watch a tv show it better be good quality and good story -- right?)
    at 50KBps per stream and 200 concurrent viewers thats 80mbit/s..
    I know these are big numbers but imho its only fair to give people decent picture quality if they pay.
    Bandwidth for video is in Kbps, not KBps.

    - Matt

  7. #7
    people tend to measure media streams in kBit/s, not kByte/s.
    200 x 50kBit/s = 10mBit

    regards,
    M.
    Powered by AMD & FreeBSD.
    "Documentation is like sex:
    when it is good, it is very, very good;
    and when it is bad, it is better than nothing."

  8. #8
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    yes.. i probably should of used kbits but i still meant 50KBytes, asin 400Kbits.
    a stream from apple.com for example on a good quality trailer is about 900KBit/s
    anything below 400KBit/s (50KBytes) IMO will be low quality.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Miha
    Dual Opteron, couple gigs of RAM, SCSI hardware raid, and FreeBSD-5.2 on top should handle the load.

    Bandwidth - hm, perhaps 10mbps unmetered?

    regards,
    M.
    I would take a 100mbit port because users will not be able to stream it during peak (1000 users) as streaming requires high bandwidth

  10. #10
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    Ok he said the videos are 10-15 megs each! any idea on what kinda bandwidth thats gonna use? Sorry im terrible with calculating bandwidth usage I always manage to get it wrong so I would rather a second opinion.

    Thanks guys.
    Jeff

    P.S If they could be shrunk what size would you shrink them to?
    Xoopiter.com:: The new standard in Web Hosting

  11. #11
    Size of movie * # of movies each visitor watches * # of visitors a day * days in a month = total bandwidth needed for that month.

    Example for a 15MB movie, with 4 videos watched per person, with 100,000 visitors a day.

    15*4*100,000*30 = 180,000,000MB = 180,000GB = 180TB
    Last edited by schmeg007; 03-11-2004 at 12:15 AM.
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  12. #12
    Originally posted by schmeg007
    Size of movie * # of movies each visitor watches * # of visitors a day * days in a month = total bandwidth needed for that month.

    Example for a 15MB movie, with 4 videos watched per person, with 100,000 visitors a day.

    15*4*100,000*30 = 180,000,000MB = 180,000GB = 180TB
    Something like that requires not just one server, but a cluster of machines, with gige NICs...
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  13. #13
    You have to take more than 1 server !
    1 web server with 2 cpu like 2*2ghz 2gb ram
    1 sql server with 2 cpu like 2*2ghz 2gb ram (FreeBSD is good)
    2 download servers for your videos (if you dont stream them) need GigE NIC or 2 FE, no need of big cpu but 2 servers for load balancing

    We have made something for a project like yours and we had connected a dedicated switch with GigE uplink
    Last edited by Prozac; 03-12-2004 at 08:04 PM.

  14. #14
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    Let's ask Mr. Owl! :/

  15. #15
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    At least a Dual Xeon, around 2GB of RAM, 100Mbps Unmetered - you will need a direct connection to the net. Also, only use ATA or SCSI Hard Drives, no IDE - they take too long. But when you get into ATA or SCSI drives, you give up size for the speed. Also, have a server for the forums, person to person chatting. With one or more serving as file dumps for your movies, and member storage.

  16. #16
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    Opteron or Xeon will work (Assuming its dual)

    You will probably want a 10 MBPS connection

  17. #17
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    i would get a cluster of something running free bsd, go for meadian system almost like not the one thats at the top and cost 2x the price of the one thats one 1mhz slower, user like two gigs of ram in each server (ram - its always cheap)

    you also may want to have your download servers on mirrors or something like
    downloadwestcoast.mysillydomainname.com
    downloadeastcost.mysillydomainname.com
    europe.mysillydomainname.com
    this idea also all depends on you said it was a night club....all of those downloads may just come locally
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  18. #18
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    They mostly will be local, Toronto canada actually. So half say one ahnd half say multiple? Do you think having 1 for movies, 1 for the forum, and 2 for peoples files will be needed? Its kinda like a free lavalife if your looking for an example so it could get big. The server they have now is at The Planet and are 2.8 GHZ Xeon so should hold for a while.

    Jeff
    Xoopiter.com:: The new standard in Web Hosting

  19. #19
    If it's purely local and if your budget is limited I would not worry about it getting 100K actively viewing visitors per day. Just make your pages as static as possible and get a top of the line machine. When it starts getting ugly, buy additional download mirror server and offload, say, 50% of episodes to that one.

    Sure, if you have the money, having at least two servers would help, since large static files/streaming require a very different operating system and web server setup from dynamic php/asp pages to operate at full efficiency.
    Last edited by piramida; 03-15-2004 at 03:15 AM.

  20. #20
    Well, since no one has done any proper math on the video streaming thing, I'll tell you.

    There are 1800 seconds in 30 minutes (30*60=1800)

    If the video files are 15MB a piece (like you stated), 15MB = 120Mb = 120,000,000 bits

    120,000,000bits/1800sec = 66,666bits/sec = 66.67kbits/sec

    So, for every user streaming a video you can figure they'll consume 66.67kbits/sec.

    If at peak he'll have 1000 users, you can safely figure the most streaming video at any one time will be 900. 900*66.67 = 60mbits/sec

    So he is definitely going to need at least a 100mbit port and SCSI drives in RAID5 (or pick your poison) to handle the constant load on the drives.

    Now, assuming he's doing this the right way and will have ample money to spend on his set up, I would enlist the help of two servers for video streaming and possibly member storage as long as he chooses decent servers. 2.8ghz hyperthreaded with 1.5gb ram and 5 36gb SCSI hdds (in RAID5, that will give 144gb space on each server)

    If he has 30,000 members storing 2mb each (not all members will store stuff, I think this is a fair estimate), that would take up 60gb of the space right there, leaving him with about 60-70gb of space for his vids after OS install, swap, etc.

    I would choose either a dual xeon 4gb ram (or opteron) or two 2.8ghz 1.5gb ram(or similar) servers for the webservers, and also run mail/dns here

    I would choose dual xeon or opteron with 4-8gb ram for the sql server.

    Of course, he could probably get by with two servers, dual xeon or dual opteron with loads of ram. However, if he's making a decent sum of money, he should provide his users with the stability and speed possible with a nice config like the setup i first described.

    Anyhow, I hope you at least found the math helpful.

    Matt

    Edit: clarification

  21. #21
    Matt, I think you're correct with your bandwidth calculations. Regarding the hardware, if this is a true streaming application rather than just file downloads, you're probably accurate there too. We've seen clients just hosting download servers max out a 100Mbps port with a plain old P4 and IDE drives, though we often suggest SATA (Raptor) or SCSI.

    I'd recommend a 100Mbps unmetered port. We've got a few clients like this with "event-based" bandwidth usage. One of them has a weekly release of new streaming video content. Each time this happens, the client comes very close to maxing out the 100Mbps port for about 10 hours, then utilizes about 70% of the port for the next 10-12 hours.

    So, on 95th%, this client would end up with quite a large bill.

    Good luck,
    Russell
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  22. #22
    Hi Rusty,

    I think this guys best solution would just be to buy half a rack with an unmetered 100mbps port, and share the line between all the computers with a router.

    While, no doubt he could use IDE drives in his file servers, by using SCSI he could take some of the processing load off of the processor and extend the life of his hardware.

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