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  1. #1

    Question spam / advertising question

    Was wondering . . . we just purchased a combined bulk mailier/ e-mail extractor program so that we can both benefit from (and begin offering to our customers) bulk e-mail advertising. The software has a built-in server, so I wouldn't have to worry about the ISP, but are they're any other spam-related concerns I should know about. For example, can the customers receiving these e-mails file a complaint against the company (in this case us, or our customer). Is there a way to make the process more legitimate, perhaps by purchasing e-mail lists of potential users? Any wisdom?
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  2. #2
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    You sound like you are about to get in a world of trouble. This may help you avoid it:

    Do not use purchased lists. You will get in trouble.

    Anyone you mail to should have requested the mail and then confirmed their request. As in: I ask to be signed up on your website. A few moments later an email comes to the account I have asked be signed up. In this mail is a unique to me item that I must either forward back or use as a url to verify my subscription. If I do not complete this step, do not add me to your list.

    If you are in the US: Read and learn the canspam law.

  3. #3
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    What Naes said, legitimate advertising should ONLY be sent to those who have specifically requested it

  4. #4
    Greetings:

    spam, in the purest definition of the email type, is unsolicited email.

    Just because email addresses are on a mailing list that was purchased does not mean the persons to whom the email addresses belong gave their explicit (key word) permission to be emailed.

    Also, while there is software that has its own email server et all; please note that spam steals from the resources of the email providers the spam goes through as well as from the people receiving the spam.

    Lastly, please remember there are people who will email [email protected] (when appropriate) as well as report each and every spam to spamcop.net.

    Thank you.
    ---
    Peter M. Abraham
    LinkedIn Profile

  5. #5
    I understand that people have become fanatical when it comes to SPAM, but when you say you can “get into trouble,” what exactly do you mean? Do people truly consider this some heinous offense?
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  6. #6
    Not to mean or anything, but anyone using an email extractor and sending out emails that have been crawled are pretty much scum of the Earth.

    What you have said.

    "we just purchased a combined bulk mailier/ e-mail extractor program so that we can both benefit from (and begin offering to our customers) bulk e-mail advertising"

    Translation. We don't have emails that we can advertise to and no one has signed up for any of our mailing lists, so we are just going to start emailing people randomly.

    "The software has a built-in server, so I wouldn't have to worry about the ISP"

    Translation. The program uses open proxies and other servers that don't belong to me so I don't have to worry about my own ISP or upstream provider shutting me down.

    This is not a good way to advertise yourself and yes, you will get reported by people that receive your advertising. If you run your own mailing list and allow people to *sign up for the list* then you can contact them all you want. However, what you are wanting to do is grab email addresses randomly through email spiders and use someone elses resources to send the spam and then also have the servers which receive the emails incur the cost of getting the message as well.

    I have my spam filters to direct spam email to [email protected] instead of my inboxes.
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  7. #7
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    Originally posted by cmtusa
    I understand that people have become fanatical when it comes to SPAM, but when you say you can “get into trouble,” what exactly do you mean? Do people truly consider this some heinous offense?
    Yes, they do. Expect to lose your website (EV1 is one of very many ISPs that will not tolerate your type of abuse), respect, and many clients.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

  8. #8
    Geez . . . "scum of the Earth." That's seems a very harsh way to define someone who is simply inquiring about ways of locating potential customers. Keep in mind, we haven't done this. We were simply interested in investigating ways we might locate potentail clients. If I knew my position, I would never have posed the question here. But . . . to be quite frank, I'm really a bit surprised by the response here. This doesn't seem very different than telemarketing or bulk snail mail. Both, in many ways, drain resources in some manner, but both are tolerated, and both, in many cases I'm sure, are quite effective.
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  9. #9
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    Originally posted by amusive.com
    Yes, they do. Expect to lose your website (EV1 is one of very many ISPs that will not tolerate your type of abuse), respect, and many clients.
    As well as your WHT account being shut down if enough people complain to moderators about spam from you, if they know you are a WHT member.

  10. #10
    So, am I to understand that surfing the web, locating a web site that could use a redesign, and then contacting the owner of the website to proposition him/her for a redesign is, in your opinion, unethical?
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  11. #11
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    Originally posted by cmtusa
    Geez . . . "scum of the Earth." That's seems a very harsh way to define someone who is simply inquiring about ways of locating potential customers. Keep in mind, we haven't done this. We were simply interested in investigating ways we might locate potentail clients. If I knew my position, I would never have posed the question here. But . . . to be quite frank, I'm really a bit surprised by the response here. This doesn't seem very different than telemarketing or bulk snail mail. Both, in many ways, drain resources in some manner, but both are tolerated, and both, in many cases I'm sure, are quite effective.
    This is because you haven't properly researched spam.

    Spam is entirely different than telemarketing or snail mail. It shifts the cost of receiving onto the RECEIVER instead of the transmitter. SOMEONE, not you, but someone down the line pays for the bandwidth that you consume by transmitting your garbage emails.

    It's roughly comparable to telemarketing only if you call collect and the person is forced to accept the charges.

    It's roughly comparable to direct mail only if you send it postage due, and the receiver is forced to pay your postage.

    The people who send out spam are scum, plain and simple. If you choose to do it, that is what you will become.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

  12. #12
    If I may jump in and ask.
    Ok NEWbe (that's me)
    I need to help some friends (Fellow Business Owners) We are looking to set up our own email newsleter service online. To email our clients. Where would I get the website setup software ect.
    Thanks
    I may try to post this as a new thread if this would be better.

  13. #13
    Originally posted by cmtusa
    Geez . . . "scum of the Earth." That's seems a very harsh way to define someone who is simply inquiring about ways of locating potential customers. Keep in mind, we haven't done this. We were simply interested in investigating ways we might locate potentail clients. If I knew my position, I would never have posed the question here. But . . . to be quite frank, I'm really a bit surprised by the response here. This doesn't seem very different than telemarketing or bulk snail mail. Both, in many ways, drain resources in some manner, but both are tolerated, and both, in many cases I'm sure, are quite effective.
    I did say that anyone that does it is so. However, I didn't say you are. You haven't yet, so don't be offended.

    amusive.com summed it up very well on what you asked. In addition to that, my domain has been registered for quite some time and my email addresses have been active as well for quite a long period.

    No matter how much filtering I try to do, my inbox along with our support and sales channels inboxes are overwhelmed with spam. Trying to run a company, this is not helpful because for every 100-200 emails received to these addresses, only one or two are legitimate emails from actual clients or potential clients. If the anti-spam filters are too strong, we lose legitimate emails, which is unacceptable.

    Spam is effectively crippling businesses that try to have open channels of communication with their clients.

    dsmart, try http://www.codingclick.com/scripts/
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  14. #14

    I WILL LOOK THAT OVER

    Thanks
    I will look it over.
    I will state the problem as I see it. Email a great tool when in the right hands. A great help to conduct business. Which I'm sure nobody disagrees. The problem started with the snake oil salesman that came thru town with the great cure all. Fancy wagon's great talk. They looked good sounded good and worked on the uneducated and inexperienced. Eventually we created laws in how to deal with them. In fact the "run out on a rail" or "string them up" comes to mind.... Sound good?. So it cleaned it up. Not perfect but it cleaned it up. When the advent of Internet and email came into being we had no laws to protect us from the snake oil salesman. They are alive again and need to be sanctioned. Somebody needs to get hurt so a law will be passed. Then it will get cleaned up. I hate that big brother has to regulate something because it cost us. Then it is left to big business because the rules are so many that the little guy can't find a way to play in the sandbox. The bottom line is if the web hosting companies find way to kill the spam before it leaves with a proof of business connection before emailing it would kill so much of the spam. This is just an idea...." attack the source" instead of trying to filter out the bad snake oil as we drink it. Well there is my two bits.
    Happy emailing

  15. #15
    Originally posted by cmtusa
    So, am I to understand that surfing the web, locating a web site that could use a redesign, and then contacting the owner of the website to proposition him/her for a redesign is, in your opinion, unethical?
    If your intention is to make money, possibly. Bulk mail is spam. If you do this to 100+ web sites, yes, it is unethical and will destroy your reputation and the reputation of everyone involved. It's a waste of web resources and people's time.

    Note, you can spam if you comply with the CAN SPAM act. Some things you must do include putting "ADV" in the subject line and including your entire name and physical postal address. Also, never attempt to forge the mail headers.
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  16. #16
    Greetings:

    "Do people truly consider this some heinous offense?"

    I consider spam to be theft.

    Various states have laws against spam allowing the state to prosecute the spam sender as having committed a felony.

    Thank you.
    ---
    Peter M. Abraham
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  17. #17
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    Originally posted by dynamicnet
    "Do people truly consider this some heinous offense?"

    I consider spam to be theft.
    Agreed 100%.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

  18. #18
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    For crying out loud, what on earth gives you the idea that sending out email to people who didn't ask you to contact them is ok?

    Is your email address so new it isn't overflowing with spam yet? If so then perhaps you should try out the internet thing for a little longer before going into business on it. I agree with Coach 100% here. There are days I so wish I could just shut down support@ and sales@ because I'm tired of the spam that flows through them. And there's not a thing I can do about it. I do all kinds of things that let me escape little bits of spam, such as clever redirecting, etc but it never fails, it eventually gets just as bad or worse then it was before I found a new way around it. It's a pity that my business gets hurt by exactly what you are proposing to do, even though I have 0 (that's right ZERO!@#) interest in whatever it is you'd like to offer me.

    As for telemarketing and bulk mailing. You can't really tell me you haven't been eating dinner only to hear the phone ring... "Hi, would you like to switch to some-phone-company long distance?" GAH!

    As for emailing people asking if you can redesign their pages. I typically either delete the email outright, or depending on my mood, you'll get a response that will probably leave you wanting to claw your eyes out for having read it

    Point is, don't do it. You're wasting the rest of the worlds resources and no one is better off for you having done it, not even you since you're reputation will be ruined.
    Matt Walters
    http://mattwalters.net/ - Weblog

  19. #19
    As I stated at the beginning of this thread, we were considering it, not committed to it. Fact is, we probably won't do it after all, if it does in fact have a negative impact on our company's reputation. We have many customers already, and we don't want to jeopardize our future.

    But I'll be honest, what worries me here is the blatant anti-American sentiment that I'm hearing. Who, precisely, decides that what's being sent is garbage? Who decides that what is being sent is wasting the world's resources. You? So, if information isn’t requested or opted for, it’s then certifiably and inherently bad? Doesn’t seem very American to me. After all, haven’t you ever been convinced by a good sales pitch? Haven’t you ever learned about a great product through some sort of bulk advertisement? I receive tons of spam everyday, tons of junk mail, tons of phone calls from unwanted solicitors. So, because I define this as a nuisance, it should be made illegal?
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  20. #20
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    So I'm anti-american for hating Spam? I've heard some spins before, but wow, that's an extreme, heh.

    And honestly, yes, I think all unsolicited email I receive is garbage. If I want to know about something I know exactly how to find what I want in google or a mall. I don't need spammers cramming it into my inbox.

    And no, I have never seen what I considered to be a great item through bulk mail, email, or unsolicited phone call. The cold calls are always hung up on immediately, the mailings always go in the trash, and the spam always goes straight to the deleted folder. It's not going to change.

    I'm glad to see you're reconsidering, and I firmly believe that if you don't bother with it you'll be making the right decision.

    And as to who decides what ... in general the majority decides what they feel is right and wrong. Although this message board is a very small slice of the internet community, I don't believe I've seen anyone say "Yeah, start yer spamming engine up! go for it!" That might be an indicator worth paying attention to.
    Last edited by mwalters; 03-10-2004 at 01:10 AM.
    Matt Walters
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  21. #21

    .

    I respect your opinion and the opinions of everyone here. And I do think the idea of banning anything because it's annoying is certainly anti-American. I wouldn't argue that you were anti-American for thinking this, however. Don't misinterpret me on that. I'm sure you love this country as much as I. It just concerns me that people are so quick to say that something should be banned or illegal simply because it is annoying or because it wastes resources, again in their opinion.
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  22. #22

    .

    I respect your opinion and the opinions of everyone here. And I do think the idea of banning anything because it's annoying is certainly anti-American. I wouldn't argue that you were anti-American for thinking this, however. Don't misinterpret me on that. I'm sure you love this country as much as I. It just concerns me that people are so quick to say that something should be banned or illegal simply because it is annoying or because it wastes resources, again in their opinion.
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  24. #24

    sorry

    Sorry. I posted this as a new topic instead of reply. This is part of a discussion I'm having in the spam/advertising forum. Glad you agree, though. I could use you in there. I'm getting pummeled with criticism for supporting spam as free speech.
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  25. #25
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    Banning spam is not anti-american. Forcing costs down the consumers throat is anti-american.

    spam will be OK in my book, only when I get $0.10/email or more auto deposited to my bank account when I receive it. Then the costs lay on the sender, and thats fine.

  26. #26

    costs?

    The world is full of costs. What about the time it costs me to throw away that junk mail, or the time it takes to press delete thirty five times when opening my e-mail. This costs me time, but I'm willing to accept that cost to live in a place where people have the freedom to speak to me, even if I haven't asked to be spoken to.
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  27. #27

    by the way

    I didn't invite you to reply to this thread, but you did. And I'm glad you did even if what you're saying isn't what I want to hear. That's America, baby! Embrace it, don't resist it!
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  28. #28
    I hate spam. I hate spammmers. Spam is not free speech, because it costs me my sanity. I hate telemarketers too. They both are people who are stealing my time and my resources 1 minute at a time, so they can profit.

    I have never once purchased an item or service either through spam or from a telemarketer. I never will.
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  29. #29

    Company in Sacramento charged with sending Spam

    Originally posted by cmtusa
    I understand that people have become fanatical when it comes to SPAM, but when you say you can “get into trouble,” what exactly do you mean?

    Business sued here in Sacramento for spam.

    Do people truly consider this some heinous offense?
    Yes. Spam is horrible. Its like if someone chewed tobacco, then spit it out right into your lemonade. That is how bad spam is.
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  30. #30
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    Re: .

    Originally posted by cmtusa
    It just concerns me that people are so quick to say that something should be banned or illegal simply because it is annoying or because it wastes resources, again in their opinion.
    There are several key points that you either don't understand or haven't been made aware of. One is that a good portion of the cost of spam is borne by the recipient in the form of bandwidth, cpu cycles, and disk space. As bad as it is for an end user, it is far worse for the isp or bandwidth provider who has to reinforce their network infrastructure to handle the ever-increasing amount of spam and spam-related traffic that flows through their systems on a daily basis.

    You may see it as nothing more than a few emails promoting whatever it is you want to promote, however, that is ignoring the big picture. AOL blocks over a billion pieces of spam a day. That's billion, with a B. Per day. Who do you think pays for the equipment and manpower to handle that kind of spam load? I'll give you a hint - it aint AOL.

    Another is the "free speech" issue which I saw you mention in another thread. While it's true that as Americans, we enjoy the right of free speech, that right only protects us from government-imposed restrictions. The owner of the network your site/mail server is on has every right to restrict the type of traffic that eminates from it, just as the recipient has the right to accept or deny that same traffic. It's called personal property rights, something that anyone who considers themselves to be a "good American" should be familiar with. You can't come into my home uninvited and start pitching Viagra, so why should you be allowed to come into my server?

    There's considerably more, but it's late, I'm tired...I hope the above made some sort of sense. God how I hate this topic. Google is your friend, spend some time researching. The legal, technical, moral, and ethical reasons not to spam are numerous and broad ranging, while the reasons to spam are very few, and really just boil down to greed when all is said and done.

    Some links that you should check out:

    http://www.cauce.org/about/problem.shtml
    http://www.mail-abuse.org/manage.html
    http://spamcon.org/directories/best-practices.shtml
    http://www.spamlaws.com/


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  31. #31
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    TMX -- I pointed out that there is a cost for the recipient, but the OP just ignored that. Perhaps he'll notice your message.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

  32. #32
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    Re: sorry

    Originally posted by cmtusa
    . . . I'm getting pummeled with criticism for supporting spam as free speech.
    So you support spam under the disguise of free speech?

  33. #33
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    Well, if it is unsolicited, I guess people have the right to shun it. Remember, there's a thin line between free speech and spam. Unfortunately, 90% of the spam we receive today, is not even someone trying to converse with us. I'll bet you a great many of the spammers are not even selling the product they are advertising for.

    It is a very disruptive annoyance. I agree that free speech is a basic right for everyone, and that it should be preserved. But then who's to define speech/spam from one another?
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  34. #34
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    I think that you have free speach a little confused. Freedom of speech is actually more of a Freedom of opinion and the freedom to voice that opinion in an orderly and lawful manner that doesn't interfere with another persons constitutional rights. But I have never recieved spam from someone who only wants to tell me there opinion unless it's there opinion about why I should give them money for some pyramid scam or viagra when I'm a fully functional 27 year old man. Does this impede on my constitutional rights... Yes I have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happieness and non of these involve unsolicited email or anything they have to sell or try to con me into. as a matter of fact when I first got on the internet I got my first spam message promising wonderful things but what I got was a system shutdown and a bunch of windows errors because of the overload of pop ups. Hence I was hindered in my pursuit of happieness

  35. #35
    I agree. It is fine to exercise free speech, but it is not fine to force that free speech on others. It is fine for people to send us e-mails, but not fine for people to send us e-mails which have no relevance to us, and which we have not agreed to receive.

  36. #36
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    Re: .

    Originally posted by cmtusa
    And I do think the idea of banning anything because it's annoying is certainly anti-American.
    Ok, well how does banning it because it's theft sound for you? If you go through with this:
    1) You're using my bandwidth, my disk space, my cpu, on my servers to advertise. That bandwidth, disk space, and cpu was not purchased for you to advertise to me.
    2) You're using my users bandwidth, disk space, and cpu that they've purchased from me to advertise. They did not purchase that to recieve advertisements from you
    3) I'd bet that the program that you bought uses unsecured email proxies to send the messages. It's extremely likely that those server operators don't pay for their bandwidth, disk space, and cpu to have hurricom.net spamming through it.
    4) The labor hours that it costs to delete the garbage from the email box (hitting delete over and over again) or by filtering (more cpu power needed) costs money too.
    5) When your account at ev1servers.net gets terminated for spamming (not if, when), you've added on the costs of whomever reported it's labor, as well as the ev1 abuse departments turning down your machine.
    6) When ev1servers.net gets put on a blacklist because of your spamvertised domains, it's going to cost the abuse person more hours. It's going to cost the rest of the people hosted in the same IP blocks time as well as possible customers (people cancelling because email isn't going through).

    Stealing from others, on so many levels, is not a 'free speach' issue. Your spam is unwelcome. It's not unamerican to not want to be ripped off, and that's what you're proposing.

    And finally - the constitution protects you from government intervention in your life - not from private entities (ev1, us, any of the posters here, etc). Your first amendment rights end at the government, not me.
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  37. #37
    Again, we were inquiring about this, not committed to it. I'd appreciate some recognition of that, rather than statments like the following:

    "to have hurricom.net spamming through it."

    We're not spamming anyone. We just wondered what other more experienced professionals in the field thought about it.
    Why do you think we posed the question in this forum . . . to get opinions.
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  38. #38

    actually

    Actually, I think with this free speech rant, I may have steered us away from my initial concern. I actually agree that SPAM in the traditional sense is fairly unethical, for most of the reasons mentioned here. I'm glad I posed the question actually, because I now realize that this e-mail extractor we received is not worth using after all. I guess my real problem is the distinction between actual SPAM and what people are calling SPAM. It's difficult to deny that that mailing thousands, millions, billions of people you don't know to advertise services that they don't need is unethical (especially when the e-mail contains no return address). My real problem is that I DO NOT believe that emailing particular business owers whose sites I've personally visited is SPAM. I think this is good business, and I think it shows persistance on the part of the business as well. I guess my real problem is that I DO NOT consider this SPAM, and I suspect that many of you would call it such. I think amid our developing hate for SPAM, we've begun to falsely classify things as such when they don't necessarily fit the definition.
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  39. #39
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    Re: costs?

    Originally posted by cmtusa
    The world is full of costs. What about the time it costs me to throw away that junk mail, or the time it takes to press delete thirty five times when opening my e-mail. This costs me time, but I'm willing to accept that cost to live in a place where people have the freedom to speak to me, even if I haven't asked to be spoken to.
    ...and you have every right to make that choice for yourself. For yourself. You have no right to make that choice for anyone else.

    -B
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  40. #40
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    Originally posted by cmtusa
    We just wondered what other more experienced professionals in the field thought about it.
    We think you shouldn't do it. I think we've outlined MORE then enough reasons why you shouldn't do this. Nuff said?
    Matt Walters
    http://mattwalters.net/ - Weblog

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