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Thread: Linux Users

  1. #41
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    At last, reasoned arguement. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming Linux, your statements are by and large correct. I too run Linux, on a ****** old laptop that is so out of date that Windows 2000 won't even install (P75/40Mb). Why? Because its handy to test code against, instead of dumping everything on one desktop.

    However, the biggotry that goes on between the Linux/Unix/MS camps is beyond religion. Every thing has its place. Unix and Windows 2000 are production level systems (see the TPC charts for proof http://www.tpc.org/new_result/ttperf.idc and http://www.tpc.org/new_result/ttpp.idc - bear in mind this is an independant council), i.e. mega bucks hardware handling millions of transactions. If someone wanted to build such a system, and didn't know which to go for, I would always recommend Windows 2000 as I know what you need to do it to get it right. However, if someone was dead set on using UNIX, I wouldn't try to talk them out of it, as it too is capable of handling the load.

    Linux, on the other hand, is largely a UNIX clone that is developed and made better by peer pressure. I believe in the long run this is a good thing (Darwins theory and all that), but due to its nature I wouldn't trust it (as an OS) without decent testing, for both scalability and redundancy, on decent spec hardware for any full scale production system.

    If you go to http://www.netcraft.com, it shows that Unix/Linux have the fast majority of the market share. But bear in mind that the fast majority of sites are not running heavy loads. I would hazard a guess that of the top 1000 sites (in terms of traffic), Unix leads the way (by a small margin), Windows 2000 is catching up and Linux isn't used (or a slim %age). Again, a matter of everything has its place. However, in the SME market, where traffic is not that great, I dare say that Linux is the king - basically for the fact that its free, and is very flexible.

    For desktops, its a matter of choice. My choice is MS all the way, but thats my hangup. But then again, desktops are a completely different ballgame......

    BTW, did you know that the minimum spec for Windows 2000 Server (Standard and Advanced) is 128Mb, 256Mb recommended. No wonder it doesn't work on 64Mb. If I remember correctly, it will refuse to install......

    [Edited by inwks on 10-04-2000 at 12:45 PM]

  2. #42
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    Exactly inwks. That was my point. Every OS has it's advantages/disadvantages. It all depends on what you want to do.

    Yeah, I knew the minimum specs for Win2k Server, that's why I bet you the $100... hehe I didn't know it wouldn't install though, haven't tried it.

    The great thing about Linux is that is brings *nix to the masses, where previously that was impossible. I do think that your underestimating it's ability to perform in a high traffic environment, but if you have the cash, and there's millions of dollars on the line, then I want someone to be accountable for their software.

    The more choice, the better, in my opinion.

    [Edited by tabernack on 10-04-2000 at 01:02 PM]

  3. #43
    I agree with you guys, but the only reason I work in windows is coz of its GUI. Linux is getting to it, but is not quiet there are yet. Also, the linux install is tuff! Very tuff It took me 8 formats, and yet I couldnt install it. On the 9th try, I finally did it, and then it dint support my mouse, so I had to reformat and install windows on my box.


    Though I like the stability and opensource of linux, I like the GUI of and support for Windows. But then again, beggers cant be choosers
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  4. #44
    kunal, try Corel Linux... its ideal for a home user... almost as easy tos et up as windows.

    I am sorry here, but we do have some servers hosted in our facilities that are p3 dual 700 mhz, igb of RAM, RAID of 40 GB SCSI, etc, etc.

    They are all under linux and run, you can guess, a tremendously amount of process / traffic / etc. If you want to do the same as we are doing on a win2k box, you will need a dual 1.3 GHZ, which is... either $15,000 or not even buyable right now.

    Linux is far better than unix now... sure it is open source and one could think it is not stable. False! It ws below the *BSD families, for a while, but while BSD grow slow, linux grow fast and does a better job at anything than unix was doing before.

    Yah, I do have windows here, simply because all my design tools are all done to work under windows. Yes, I am a power user and yes my windows crash AT LEAST once a day. These dual 700 mhz with an incredible load are up for ...
    35 days, 14h37

    See the difference? Try to have a win2k system run for that long under that pressure with the same lenght required to tweak the system.

    One good thing I saw on a win2k system... was someone who disabled the graphical GUI. That reduced the CPU and RAM usage by 50% already and brought it near the power of a unix or linux system.

    Else... bah windows is nice, it looks cute... but its not a server.
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  5. #45
    Originally posted by Félix C.Courtemanche
    One good thing I saw on a win2k system... was someone who disabled the graphical GUI. That reduced the CPU and RAM usage by 50% already and brought it near the power of a unix or linux system.
    Whaaaaaaaaaaat?????


    I need to multi boot, coz my mom is new to the computer, and she tends to sneak in, and work on mine, when I aint around. So what would you advice? Format the full Harddisk, Install Linux and then windows or what??
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  6. #46
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    Félix,

    I've conducted tests (for a proof of concept) on the last beta of Win2K advanced server on some very nice kit lent to us from Compaq (dual PIII Xeons, 1Gb RAM, load balanced across 3 servers) running at approx. 80-90% use (courtesy of RadView) for about 30 days before I switched them off (had to return the servers, so unfortunately didn't find out how long for). I think thats pretty good performance. NT on the other hand was a different story.....
    "Woof" said Daisy,
    Poor Daisy is not so sure of
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  7. #47
    I heard the word XEON here... you just doubled the price

    For the same hardware, linux does better.
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  8. #48
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    Why put a fiesta engine in the chassis of a ferrari? Xeons don't double the price, sure they add to it, but not quite double. Xeons are optimised for the server environment, like the new PIII steppers (can't remember their real name) are optimised for laptops. Horses for courses....
    "Woof" said Daisy,
    Poor Daisy is not so sure of
    her animalility anymore.....

  9. #49
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    Kunal,

    I would personally recommend buying a second hard drive to install Linux on if you're going to dual boot. Hard Drives are so cheap right now and it's the best way to go.

    I have installed Linux (RedHat and Mandrake) several times, and one time it wiped out my FAT (File Allocation Table) and I lost my windows partition.

    For an easy install I would recommend Linux Mandrake 7.1 +. It's optimized (or compiled) for Pentium class processors and performs better (not much, but better) than RedHat and it's %99 RedHat compatible. If you were logged into a Mandrake system you'd swear it was RedHat. But the Mandrake install is very, very, very easy. It has a begginner feature where it will automatically make your partitions for you and autoconfigure almost everything.

    Or, go find yourself an old computer for $100 bucks and use that to install Linux on.

  10. #50
    Originally posted by inwks
    Why put a fiesta engine in the chassis of a ferrari? Xeons don't double the price, sure they add to it, but not quite double. Xeons are optimised for the server environment, like the new PIII steppers (can't remember their real name) are optimised for laptops. Horses for courses....
    Well, we just quoted the price of a PIII dual XEON 800 MHZ and it was not double but a lot more expensive than the equivalent PIII dual 800 MHZ

    Of course the XEON does better, but my point here was not about the computer itself... but about the fact that on the same hardware configuration, Linux does better than Unix, which does better than win2k, which does better than win NT

    The usage of linux's system is so low that on our servers, before they were installed, on the dual CPU, the load was:
    0.02% and 0.00% (dual 700 mhz) with all the needed services opened but not serving content.

    Start win2k and you aready have a 20% used on both.
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  11. #51
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    Well something must be wrong with your config, I'm more than happy to run perfmon and post the results.
    "Woof" said Daisy,
    Poor Daisy is not so sure of
    her animalility anymore.....

  12. #52
    go ahead, I'm curious.
    post your system specs and usage when the server has every neede service up but idle.
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  13. #53
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    Pleasure, but you'll have to wait until I get to work tomorrow (I'm a consultant, don't run a hosting company)
    "Woof" said Daisy,
    Poor Daisy is not so sure of
    her animalility anymore.....

  14. #54
    one issue we didnt adressed... SECURITY.
    Get your watch, and time the time it takes to MS to fix a bug and time the Linux gurus.

    here is an example:
    "A hacker found exploits in NASDAQ server, could have changed market info and admin passwds. Server: IIS. Hacker did ethical job of providing info to fix. Also, mentions BugTraq and how MS didn't fix the hole when it was posted July 17. "
    July 17th and it is still not fixed??

    now, see a bug one day on ANY distribution of linux and the day after you have a solution.
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  15. #55
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    Smile

    At my highschool we received sponsorship from MS. The network consists of well over 100 workstations. The entire network is firewalled/masqed/and proxied. By a single Linux box. Oh yeah and not too mention it also acts as a reverse cacheing proxy/firewall for our win2k servers.

  16. #56
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    Felix brought up another excellent point, and that's the ability of the Linux community to reponded quickly to bugs, security issues, etc...

    You will never wait longer than 2 days for a fix. This is something that no Unix flavour or MS OS can offer.

  17. #57
    Originally posted by tabernack
    Kunal,

    I would personally recommend buying a second hard drive to install Linux on if you're going to dual boot. Hard Drives are so cheap right now and it's the best way to go.
    Wouldnt this make me remove one and insert the other one whenever I wanna switch between the OS? Or can I just go into the BIOS settings and not detect the other one? Also, wouldnt linux detect the system to be a raid by doing something like this???
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  18. #58
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    No. Most cases have room for at least 2 hard drives. You would simply choose which one to boot from. There would likely be no need to continually have to tinker with your BIOS settings.

    RAID is much more than multiple disks, so your answer to that question is no also.
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  19. #59
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    Kunal,

    you can have several hard drives with several different os's on one pc. But you can only have one Master Drive which has the boot loader (in the master boot record).

    They key here is to have a boot loader (like Linux's boot loader LILO) that allows you to specify multiple OS's and where they are located.

    So what happens is when I install Linux (on a dual boot machine) I also install LILO in the master boot record (this overwrites the NT Loader or the Win9x loader). The linux installation allows you to specify which other OS's you have and where they are located. This information is stored in a config file called lilo.conf on your Linux partition.

    So when you turn on your computer, Lilo is started and you get to choose which OS you want to run.

    The great thing about Lilo (like anything in Linux) is that it's completely under YOUR control.

    At one point when I only had 1 PC, I had Win NT, Win98, and Linux on 2 hard drives (1 drive for the windows OS's) and 1 for Linux. I simply selected the OS I wanted to boot with using Lilo.

    Very simple, once you've used it a couple of times.

    Linux Mandrake uses a different bootloader than Lilo, but it's essentially the same.

  20. #60
    Ah. Now I get it. Thanx
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  21. #61
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    No Problem,

    I ordered my Linux CD's from http://www.cheapbytes.com for only about $3/cd

    The last order I got was the *BSD package which came with OpenBSD 2.6, NetBSD 1.4.2, and FreeBSD 4.0. It came to $15 plus shipping of $5.

    Some people will tell you to just download it. I've tried several times and every time my download was corrupt. Not mention the fact that you need a burner and a blank CD. It's just easier to order them since they're so inexpensive.

    Good luck!

  22. #62
    Well, I am in India. I dun think they would ship here. Anyways, I can get the same for 200Rs. including shipping
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  23. #63
    Originally posted by tabernack

    Some people will tell you to just download it. I've tried several times and every time my download was corrupt. Not mention the fact that you need a burner and a blank CD. It's just easier to order them since they're so inexpensive.
    I burned Slackware 7, RH 6.2 and RH 6 on different occasions without any problems.

    It downloaded nice and fast, took approximately 1 hour from the click to download to the CD burned.

    No problems at all... you may want to check your ISO program maybe?
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  24. #64
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    Felix,

    That assumes you have decent bandwidth and/or you want to use up your customer's bandwidth to download. If you're on anything less than xDSL, its cheaper to buy the media (Amazon have RH7 for about 100GBP for professional server, 30GBP for bog standard), and you get the manuals as well!

    PS. Results for idle is:

    "(PDH-CSV 4.0)","\\CADWELL\Processor(_Total)\% Processor Time"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:38.150","8.999914475850744"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:39.151","6.9999999999999947"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:40.153","4.0000000000000036"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:41.154","4.000000000000002"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:42.156","0"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:43.157","0"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:44.158","2.0000000000000018"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:45.160","1.0000000000000009"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:46.161","2"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:47.163","0"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:48.164","0"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:49.166","5.000000000000002"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:50.167","0"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:51.168","1.0000000000000009"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:52.170","0"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:53.171","1"
    "10/09/2000 11:30:54.173","6.0000000000000053"

    However, doesn't really say much. On the other hand, under load..... any one fancy devising a standard test? i.e. Build scripts for both ASP and PHP. Load balance each, on identical hardware, and see which is fastest under light, moderate and heavy loads?
    "Woof" said Daisy,
    Poor Daisy is not so sure of
    her animalility anymore.....

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