Web Hosting Talk : Other Forums : Web Hosting Lounge : Is time free?

[Speedie]

This is partly me letting off steam, but also a valid topic of conversation....apologies in advance to anyone who finds it irrelevant.

Why is it that as programmers/designers/webmasters and so on, our time is supposed to be free to other people? I run a news site at the moment, and also have a sideline doing custom CGI work plus selling standard scripts. The number of times I get emails saying "Love xyz script, could I have the source code please?" or "I like this free script you offer, but could you customise this, this and this for me please" is unbelievable. But if I reply and say "Sure, though there will be a charge of $xx to cover some of the development time" I can guarantee that 95% of the time I never hear anything further.

Would these same people visit an attorney or an accountant and expect their services to be free? Of course not. So why are we the exception? Or am I the only one who gets this?

Would be interested in hearing other thoughts and experiences.

Speedie.

[BC]

You're not the only one here. It's the 'freebie' mentality on the Net - if you get something for free, they expect to go the whole hog. Of course, this isn't supposed to be a generalisation, but I've seen it happen on many, many occasions.

Of course, one way to get around it is to just place a prominent notice on your site stating like : "Here are the scripts you want. However, I do NOT have the time to supply you with the source code, or provide help in any way. I will charge (insert ridiculous sum of money) amount per hour for any help required. You have been warned, and I will not respond to e-mails regarding the above."

That's worked effectively for a CGI developer I know.

[akashik]

*lol*

I've been thinking much the same myself lately. Last week I got an email from a guy wanting a 'community' site built. He showed me what he had so far, and straight off I was a little cagey (lots of stuff thrown together and stolen from other sites), but I figure ok - he's tried it and now realises it's not as easy as it looks.

Anyway he asks for a frameset navigation (top, left, main) with graphics built in. It's a straight fee with more added as he needs it for negotiable fees (I build, he pays, I build, he pays etc). I give him a price for the frameset and am told it all ok and the check is in the mail. Having recently had to drag someone over the coals to get a final payment, I decide to lay back and just draw up a sketch, leave it as a solid (smaller), graphic of poor quality and post it off to him for confirmation I'm in the right direction, explaining it's only a rough draft.

He emails me back saying it's great and go ahead, and by the way can you do this cgi thing? Sure I say - for a price... Next day I get a zip in the mail with the cgi script he's having trouble with, but no mention of prices. As it was just a matter of changing a .pl file to a .cgi file I fire off one back saying as much.

Anyway, two weeks later now, and no check. So far I'm down a couple of emails and about 2 hours in photoshop, so it's no biggie. Had I gone ahead and tried to do the RIGHT thing for this guy and got him a full frameset with all the html, navigation plus a few bells and whistles I had planned I would have been truly in the hole.

So yeah, you're right. They expect things for nothing just because you're through a computer screen, and you're making webpages or programs (not 'real' things apparently). The addage of 'Time Is Money' is true and never moreso than in this business. All those hours I sit on my ass making things for people who don't pay up, is time I could have been spending working on real clients. It's becoming more common too. It used to be people almost ALWAYS paid up, and paid on time. Maybe it's MP3's *lol* too many young kids online now that think the net is all free, all the time.

I feel like I'm becoming a bitter prick at times but often find myself having to say "As soon as the check arrives, I'll let you see something". Once explained why, most people are ok with it, and usually have plenty of stories of their own of missing payments and rip-offs. Also I work on a weekly rate now, whereas I used to just say "Pay me at the end of it, when you're happy". A lot of webdesigners *used* to do it that way too - not many do now, unless they don't need the money in the first place. *chuckle*

Also, people try to get extra things added for nothing all the time - another reason I'm weekly now. I used to get what they wanted done and quote them... Suddenly you start to get "I want you to do this too?" and not mention anything to do with pricing *again*. Now they can add all they want as it'll just mean the deadline blows out, and I get paid longer for it. *shrug*

Still, the good outweighs the bad and I love what I do. I managed to turn a hobby into a job, which most people would kill for (getting paid to enjoy myself). My client base at the moment is all return jobs, for new sites, or related to clients and trustworthy. The checks are coming in and I'm paid well for it. The fact I haven't slept in almost 60 hours, am dead tired right now, but STILL in front of the laptop doing my 'job' must say something.

Greg Moore
http://www.akashik.net

[akashik]

Goodness...

That WAS pretty long wasn't it *lol*. Time to log off for a while

Greg Moore
http://www.akashik.net

[Laci]

Originally posted by Speedie
This is partly me letting off steam, but also a valid topic of conversation....apologies in advance to anyone who finds it irrelevant.

Why is it that as programmers/designers/webmasters and so on, our time is supposed to be free to other people? I run a news site at the moment, and also have a sideline doing custom CGI work plus selling standard scripts. The number of times I get emails saying "Love xyz script, could I have the source code please?" or "I like this free script you offer, but could you customise this, this and this for me please" is unbelievable. But if I reply and say "Sure, though there will be a charge of $xx to cover some of the development time" I can guarantee that 95% of the time I never hear anything further.

Would these same people visit an attorney or an accountant and expect their services to be free? Of course not. So why are we the exception? Or am I the only one who gets this?

Would be interested in hearing other thoughts and experiences.

Speedie.

When the net first started there was this real spirit of give and take example Zone Alarm is free for personal use but businesses must pay ...now people seem to expect it and as with anything people demand more.

I find myself flooded the min I come online to help with this or that...Ive learned to set limits with people

I strongly belive in the spirt the net was founded on..its trying to keep the balance thats the issue.

[BC]

Greg, totally sympathise. I was actually thinking about this last night before I tried to go to sleep (after over dosing on caffeine ). I keep thinking that it would show some 'generosity' if I said 'Just pay me at the end', but your point's basically scuttled that. What if someone takes advantage? Then I'd be out of time, money and what not.

So I've decided to instead demand a deposit up front. I usually quote them clearly explaining everything, and requesting a 25% deposit up-front. That way, I'm not out of pocket, they know they have to hold up their side and we can get moving. If they refuse, too bad. There's always other clients willing to pay for quality design work done on time.

And Dana, correct. Sometimes I wish the Net wasn't as big a phenomenon as it's been - that way we'd keep all the hogs off the Net

[Speedie]

Greg, BC and Dana - it's good to know I'm not alone

What sparked the original post (said with the benefit of hindsight and several large coffees) was this email:

"I went to moreover for getting the script for news in one category. But you have done nice work of combining them into one cgi file. Is it possible for you to give me that news.cgi file?"

Reading between the lines, and probably completely unintentionally, the sender was actually saying:

"I went to Moreover.com and got the Javascript that lets me display one category of news. You've done a good job of creating a CGI script that will dynamically display the other 314 categories for practically no extra effort, and I like that idea. However I'm giving no consideration at all to the time and effort you put into writing that CGI script and think that you should give it to me free for no good reason other than that I asked you to".

You're all perfectly correct in that there's a "freebie" culture that's pervasive on the internet. All well and good, for example Greg had a hassle with some Javascript earlier and I was happy to help him out - for no charge. But that was *my* choice, Greg sure as hell didn't send me an email expecting me to help without payment. And I know that if I need something in return one day....you get the picture.

BC, I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said "There's always other clients willing to pay for quality design work done on time". Same with programming and any other type of work, there will always be a need for good services at a reasonable cost.

So...no more freebies unless I *give* them rather than having them practically *demanded* of me :p

Best wishes,
Speedie (the calmer version).

[Duster]

Speedie (hopefully the decaffeinated one),

You have to be careful adding your own interpretation to what others say. It distorts communication when you do so. It may very well have been someone expecting something for nothing, and there are other possibilities as well.

So many people help each other with no recompense required, that the person in question may be accustomed to thinking that way. Sometimes a person knows how to do something and it only takes a moment's work, so they gladly share it.

It may be a case where that person expected that you would quote a price once you saw the project and got an idea how much work was entailed (and maybe hoping there would be none).

Then again, there are always the cheapskates and freeloaders who expect everything for free (except their own services, of course). A pox upon them and their miserliness. ;-D

Tis good to give and receive. Anything else is unbalanced.

[Speedie]

Duster,

Decaffeinated? Moi? Noooooo....you're thinking of someone else. Last time I went to give blood a bidding battle started between the Blood Transfusion Service and Starbucks

(Small note here - I am actually banned from giving blood in the USA by the FDA because I come from England!!)

I agree that sometimes putting your own spin on things can distort the intended meaning, but...considering that I responded to that email with a very polite "Whilst I cannot give it away free of charge, I am more than willing to negotiate a fair price"...and further considering that I sent that reply less than 5 minutes after receiving the mail...and finally considering that it was nearly 10 hours ago and I haven't heard anything since...I draw my own conclusions.

A pox upon them and their miserliness. ;-D

LOL....and may their webhost forever be *****, and may they get English blood next time they need a transfusion :p

Speedie (the unclean one apparently)

[Martie]

Ive found since 1995 people have been able to obtain free services of ALL sorts, web design, graphic design, and hosting too....As long as people will still do things for free it does make it harder on ones that do charge, and yes time is a major factor isnt it!!?

[angela]

I wonder if part of the problem is that people do not see your face. Maybe they forget that there are people sitting at the computers on the other end. In some cases it may also be that people new to the web and computers just don't understand the extent of what they are asking and the time commitment involved. I know that when someone asks for something they generally think that you have nothing better to do and that their request should come first. This is not always possible or reasonable of them.

I say do the best you can for everyone but don't forget that that includes doing the best thing for you.

[Laci]

Originally posted by angela
I wonder if part of the problem is that people do not see your face. Maybe they forget that there are people sitting at the computers on the other end. In some cases it may also be that people new to the web and computers just don't understand the extent of what they are asking and the time commitment involved. I know that when someone asks for something they generally think that you have nothing better to do and that their request should come first. This is not always possible or reasonable of them.

I say do the best you can for everyone but don't forget that that includes doing the best thing for you.

People do forget each of us behind the computer is a real person with *GASP* Feelings, needs and limitations.

I have an online friend who refuses to use an HTML editor she prides herself on using note pad (fine for a personal site) now she wants to get into design messages me every 10 seconds with "how do I" so I tell her, she messes it up and tells me Im wrong ARRRG..*Vent*Ive been online since 1995 on my old 386 (the only recently gave up the ghost Y2K killed it)I started with HTML soon after...it really really bugs me when a newbie tries to tell me Im wrong or someone that uses a WYSIWYG editor and knows no HTML at all that Im wrong *Stop Vent*

This was a good vent thread

[Duster]

Hey Dana,

Do you realize that the face you seem to love is cyanotic? Quick, call the paramedics. That poor little thing needs oxygen desperately (and maybe a transfusion)! :-D

[AtlantaWebhost.com]

Some people may forget that there is a person on the “other side of the screen.” However, I believe that more often they simply do not understand how time consuming getting something to work can be. We have had customers that really thought that we had an enormous library of stuff that we could pull from do anything. The case is that many things must be done from scratch.

I program in several different languages and I can tell you that it takes time. Each program has a different goal and needs to be programmed accordingly. Even though I have code from past projects, it almost never does exactly what is needed in the current project. The last database driven scripting project I worked on for a customer was done with PHP and MySQL and it took approximately 50 hours of work to complete.

In the end, I found that most people are more than willing to pay for time when they know what is involved.

Best regards,
Frank Rietta

[Speedie]

Duster said:
That poor little thing needs oxygen desperately (and maybe a transfusion)! :-D

<--volunteers some of that highly infectious English blood. MWUHAHAHAHA.

At least this thread has accomplished a couple of things:

1) Everyone has had a good vent.

2) I feel less like a miserable old git.

Or worst case scenario, we're all miserable old gits together. Which is fine too

Speedie (and his bell - "Unclean, unclean")