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Thread: WWW vs. Internet
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08-22-2003, 02:39 PM #1WHT Addict
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WWW vs. Internet
I've been told many times that the Internet and the WWW (World Wide Web) are two different things. If and how so is this true?
Regards,
WebNinja
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08-22-2003, 02:45 PM #2Junior Guru Wannabe
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Basically, the WWW is the web, what you browse on IE/netscape etc. Thats where the web sites are (hence the web part). The internet is all of the computers connected. The internet would be say FTP, gopher, telnet, SSH, networks all that nifty stuff.
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08-22-2003, 02:48 PM #3Aspiring Evangelist
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Yes they are different. The internet is a massive worldwide network, www is like the website part of it. The internet would exist without www as it orginally did.
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08-22-2003, 02:53 PM #4working on it
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http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/I/Internet.html
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/W/World_Wide_Web.html
The Difference Between the Internet and the World Wide Web
http://www.webopedia.com/DidYouKnow/...s_Internet.asp
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08-22-2003, 02:55 PM #5ex-Aussie
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what about the intraweb then?
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08-22-2003, 03:03 PM #6Aspiring Evangelist
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I never heard the term "intraweb" used before but I would guess it would be the websites on your internal network which are not available to the internet.
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08-22-2003, 03:04 PM #7Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by WebNinja
I've been told many times that the Internet and the WWW (World Wide Web) are two different things. If and how so is this true?
Regards,
WebNinja
In 1989 an English guy called Tim Berners-Lee effectively came up with the WWW, the world wide web basically consists of all the resources and users on the Internet that are using the Hypertext Transfer Protocol. By inventing things such as URI's, HTTP, HTML, browsers etc Tim Berners-Lee enabled everyone to easily access the internet and in the process created the WWW .Last edited by bagpuss; 08-22-2003 at 04:44 PM.
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08-22-2003, 03:52 PM #8WHT Addict
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Very interessting
So bascially the 'Internet' is made up of 'Protocols'.
WWW (World Wide Web) being the HTTP protocol.
I have another question regarding this concept. Are coding languages such as 'HTML' and 'PHP' a protocol of there own OR are they a coding language of their own but use the HTTP protocol.
I tried to make that sound as clear as I could, I know it sounds a little confusing.
Regards,
WebNinja
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08-22-2003, 04:37 PM #9Junior Guru Wannabe
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It's good to see people who know there stuff, especially when it comes to this issue when there are so many misconceptions (like that the Internet didn't exist before the Web or like e-mail is a part of the Web.) As far as protocols go, this has to do with the method by which data is transmitted and recieved. HTTP is regarded as a "robust" protocol because it supports the exchange of all sorts of files in addition to HTML documents. PHP is not a protocol in terms of transmission -- it preprocesses information to generate HTML as output, which is sent through HTTP as is anything else that looks like hypertext to the final recipient. In the early days, it was important to know about FTP (file transfer protocol,) Gopher (a pre-HTML method of transferring documents,) NNTP (I could be wrong about the acronym, but "news servers" constituted the Usenet, which was the precursor to discussion groups like this,) IRC (the chat network which many people still know today,) and Telnet (the groovy way to interact remotely with command line systems.) I'm sure I'm leaving some out, including the various mail handling protocols, and all sorts of special protocols devised for specific applications like online gaming or realtime media streaming.
However, for the most part, protocols are independent of languages and coding techniques. For example, I could write an HTML page, complete with CSS and JavaScript in the header, include it in an e-mail to someone else, and the whole thing would never have been transferred through HTTP. I might have browsed it as a local file during editing, and the recipient might browse it as a local file after downloading, but never would it have been transmitted through the protocol that defines the Web. As everything is connected to everything, there are plenty of options for crossover. For example, just about anything can be made accessible through the Web, from services that make e-mail accounts browsable to Java applets that act as Telnet clients. Understanding the distinctions between various protocols is crucial to administering a server, but less important for those who are simply media designers or end users. Some protocols such as Gopher and Usenet, are becoming obsolete, and pretty much everything that isn't specific to one client like a multiplayer game has folded into modern browsers, either directly or as a related "helper appplication."
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pro
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08-22-2003, 04:42 PM #10Junior Guru
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Hm, to be to the point: the HTTP protocol can be though of as a method of communicating and/or transporting data.
HTML (HyperText Markup Language) is more of a scripting language. PHP on the other hand is a little more of a programming language where it can be interactive, etc.
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08-22-2003, 05:49 PM #11Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by WebNinja
So bascially the 'Internet' is made up of 'Protocols'.
WWW (World Wide Web) being the HTTP protocol.
The thing is, "the World Wide Web" doesn't really exist as a separate thing... so it's hard to say I suppose whether when you type an "ftp://" irl into a web browser you're still using the web. To me, the web's more conceptual in nature than it is physical. The physical infrastructure is the Internet.
I have another question regarding this concept. Are coding languages such as 'HTML' and 'PHP' a protocol of there own OR are they a coding language of their own but use the HTTP protocol.
The most interesting thing to me here is the idea that there are people for whom the web was their first taste of the Internet. For those of us who've been using the net for twenty years or so, it's still a newfangled gimmick.Last edited by JayC; 08-22-2003 at 05:55 PM.
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08-22-2003, 05:56 PM #12Junior Guru
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I don't really consider FTP as part of the "web"... just like people still ask "do you have internet?"
As for the web: you gotta love Lynx!
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08-22-2003, 06:03 PM #13WHT Addict
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So basically when someone says, "Let's get on the web" they mean let's fire up are Web Browser and access HTTP protocol. I figure HTTP Protocol is one of the many protocols on the Internet that can be intergrated with LOTS of languages. (Client and Server side).
Thanks to everybody that reply'd You really helped me clear things up
Regards,
WebNinjaLast edited by WebNinja; 08-22-2003 at 06:23 PM.
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08-22-2003, 06:27 PM #14Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by BlueB
I don't really consider FTP as part of the "web"...
just like people still ask "do you have internet?"Specializing in SEO and PPC management.
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08-22-2003, 07:04 PM #15WHT Addict
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That's sort of the point I was getting at. If I create a web page and give you its address as http://example.com/download_here.html, you'd say it's on "the web," right? Now, if that page has a link, that link's also on the web? But that link is to ftp://example.com/file.zip -- when you click on it, your browser will download the file. So, is that file on the web? It's being delivered to you using the ftp protocol.
just like people still ask "do you have internet?"
Regards,
WebNinja
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08-22-2003, 07:36 PM #16Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by WebNinja
An Internet Browser can access FTP because your browser supports FTP. Just because your browser supports FTP does not mean that certain ftp file is on the web.
So I have a web page, on the web. There's a link on that page to a particular file, and the link is on the web. But that file is not on the web, even though it's on the same server, in the same directory, and will be transferred to your computer over the same network connections through the same software (your browser) on your machine... just because the data is formatted and transmitted under a slightly different set of technical specifications (a protocol)?
Like I said, that's interesting.
At the beginning of this thread, you didn't know what a protocol was or what the difference was betwen the World Wide Web and the Internet. So, if I may ask, have you drawn your firmly-stated conclusion, "No, I beleive the 'web' is short termology for 'HTTP' protocol," only from the information in this thread?
Again, I'm not saying it's wrong. To me the definition of the term "the web" is an elusive one... so I'm interested in how perceptions of it are formed.Last edited by JayC; 08-22-2003 at 07:44 PM.
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08-22-2003, 08:19 PM #17WHT Addict
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At the begenining of this thread I did know what and how protocols worked it was just slightly blurry to me and I was just asking for second opinions on the concept, maybe it came out differently.
As for an FTP file being on the web... Nope
The 'web' is short termology for 'HTTP'...
However, yes, when you type a FTP link into your browser your browser then recognize's the link and starts to download that file to your computer via FTP... The whole process has nothing to do with the web (HTTP). The only reason your able to use your browser to access FTP is because your browser supports FTP...
Your basically saying that HTTP and FTP are different protocols and just because you can use your HTTP client to download files via FTP means that file is HTTP... No..
A internet browser is also a FTP client in it's own way
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08-22-2003, 08:38 PM #18Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by WebNinja
Your basically saying that HTTP and FTP are different protocols and just because you can use your HTTP client to download files via FTP means that file is HTTP... No..
OK, one more: go back to my hypothetical page at http://www.example.com/download_here.html. Now I have two links on that page:
http://the_big_file.zip
and
ftp://the_big_file.zip
And, my server is configured in such a way that both of those links point to the exact same file. If you click one, a copy of that file will be delivered to you over the Internet using the hypertext transfer protocol. If you click the other, a copy of the same file will be delivered to you over the Internet using the file transfer protocol.
So of course the question is: Is that file "on the web?"
If yes, is it still "on the web" if I remove that first link, without changing anything about the file, my server, or how the server is connected to the Internet?Specializing in SEO and PPC management.
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08-22-2003, 08:55 PM #19WHT Addict
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I'm going to say this one more time.
HTTP (Hyper Text Transfer Protocol) MEANS WWW (World Wide Web)
HTTP cannot transfer files BUT FTP (File Transfer Protocol) CAN!!!
HTTP means the web.
If HTTP cannot transfer files that also means there not being transfered via the web..
BECAUSE HTTP IS THE WEB...
Enough said, I will not continue the thread because 'technically' I am correct..
P.S. Sure http://the_big_file.zip can be pointed to the download.. THATS DNS POINTING.. It's a WHOLE different concept..
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08-22-2003, 09:20 PM #20Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by WebNinja
Enough said, I will not continue the thread because 'technically' I am correct..
Well... I would disagree with this:HTTP cannot transfer files
But what I was getting at is the perception of what the web is. It seems like the same file could, under this definition, be both on the web and not on the web at the same time. I find that an interesting concept; I apologize if you felt you had to be on the defensive. I was looking at this exchange as more or less an anthropological exploration, which is why I said at the beginning that I was "exploring" and that I was simply finding it interesting.
Again, my apologies; clearly you haven't been finding it so interesting.Last edited by JayC; 08-22-2003 at 09:38 PM.
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08-22-2003, 09:31 PM #21WHT Addict
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No, I appologize for all the missconception..
I've come to a conclusion that we are both right in certain aspects..
It's always a good thing to get different views on things and it all depends on who you talk to and what their definitions are on the workings of things weather it be the internet or something totally different...
Regards,
WebNinja
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08-22-2003, 11:26 PM #22Junior Guru Wannabe
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I'm not a sysadmin guru, but I believe that a file transfer via http is not just a matter of pointing an http URL at ftp software. Hypertertext transfer protocol was developed to encompass several older types of information exchange, including downloading files. The idea was to create an environment where people could download just about anything without needing to fire up a seperate piece of software to serve as a client in the transfer. For users who rarely do anything but point and click, there may be no perceptible difference. However, in the case of http, Web server software handles communications with a browser client. In the case of ftp, file server software or perhaps even some feature of an operating system functions to coordinate the transfer of data. In both cases the same file is sent, but there are technical differences in the way requests are sent and acknowledged. That's really what the protocols are all about -- html is html and a zipped archive is a zipped archive, no matter how they are sent and recieved. However, getting those files out to the right machines as efficiently as possible involved that the data be packaged in a way that coordinates the flow of information.
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pro