Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1

    WWW vs. Internet

    I've been told many times that the Internet and the WWW (World Wide Web) are two different things. If and how so is this true?

    Regards,
    WebNinja

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, Ca
    Posts
    53
    Basically, the WWW is the web, what you browse on IE/netscape etc. Thats where the web sites are (hence the web part). The internet is all of the computers connected. The internet would be say FTP, gopher, telnet, SSH, networks all that nifty stuff.
    AIM/MSN- nirkillerangel
    ICQ- 1248428229
    skunkwar@pacbell.net
    http://www.killerangel.net

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Lebanon, PA
    Posts
    420
    Yes they are different. The internet is a massive worldwide network, www is like the website part of it. The internet would exist without www as it orginally did.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    paradise
    Posts
    6,220

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington
    Posts
    9,576
    what about the intraweb then?
    Former Webhost... now, just a guy.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Lebanon, PA
    Posts
    420
    I never heard the term "intraweb" used before but I would guess it would be the websites on your internal network which are not available to the internet.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    England
    Posts
    726
    Originally posted by WebNinja
    I've been told many times that the Internet and the WWW (World Wide Web) are two different things. If and how so is this true?

    Regards,
    WebNinja
    The internet is a collection of computers, which started out with the US military in the 1970's, then slowly spread to universities and other research facilities.

    In 1989 an English guy called Tim Berners-Lee effectively came up with the WWW, the world wide web basically consists of all the resources and users on the Internet that are using the Hypertext Transfer Protocol. By inventing things such as URI's, HTTP, HTML, browsers etc Tim Berners-Lee enabled everyone to easily access the internet and in the process created the WWW .
    Last edited by bagpuss; 08-22-2003 at 04:44 PM.

  8. #8
    Very interessting

    So bascially the 'Internet' is made up of 'Protocols'.

    WWW (World Wide Web) being the HTTP protocol.

    I have another question regarding this concept. Are coding languages such as 'HTML' and 'PHP' a protocol of there own OR are they a coding language of their own but use the HTTP protocol.

    I tried to make that sound as clear as I could, I know it sounds a little confusing.

    Regards,
    WebNinja

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    central Illinois
    Posts
    65
    It's good to see people who know there stuff, especially when it comes to this issue when there are so many misconceptions (like that the Internet didn't exist before the Web or like e-mail is a part of the Web.) As far as protocols go, this has to do with the method by which data is transmitted and recieved. HTTP is regarded as a "robust" protocol because it supports the exchange of all sorts of files in addition to HTML documents. PHP is not a protocol in terms of transmission -- it preprocesses information to generate HTML as output, which is sent through HTTP as is anything else that looks like hypertext to the final recipient. In the early days, it was important to know about FTP (file transfer protocol,) Gopher (a pre-HTML method of transferring documents,) NNTP (I could be wrong about the acronym, but "news servers" constituted the Usenet, which was the precursor to discussion groups like this,) IRC (the chat network which many people still know today,) and Telnet (the groovy way to interact remotely with command line systems.) I'm sure I'm leaving some out, including the various mail handling protocols, and all sorts of special protocols devised for specific applications like online gaming or realtime media streaming.

    However, for the most part, protocols are independent of languages and coding techniques. For example, I could write an HTML page, complete with CSS and JavaScript in the header, include it in an e-mail to someone else, and the whole thing would never have been transferred through HTTP. I might have browsed it as a local file during editing, and the recipient might browse it as a local file after downloading, but never would it have been transmitted through the protocol that defines the Web. As everything is connected to everything, there are plenty of options for crossover. For example, just about anything can be made accessible through the Web, from services that make e-mail accounts browsable to Java applets that act as Telnet clients. Understanding the distinctions between various protocols is crucial to administering a server, but less important for those who are simply media designers or end users. Some protocols such as Gopher and Usenet, are becoming obsolete, and pretty much everything that isn't specific to one client like a multiplayer game has folded into modern browsers, either directly or as a related "helper appplication."

    Regards,
    pro

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    205
    Hm, to be to the point: the HTTP protocol can be though of as a method of communicating and/or transporting data.

    HTML (HyperText Markup Language) is more of a scripting language. PHP on the other hand is a little more of a programming language where it can be interactive, etc.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    6,623
    Originally posted by WebNinja
    So bascially the 'Internet' is made up of 'Protocols'.

    Not really. The Internet is made up of networks and the connections between them. Various services, like the World Web Web, Usenet, email, and looking more historically, Gopher, UUCP, etc., are carried over the Internet. The various protocols essentially define how each of those services may be communicated.

    WWW (World Wide Web) being the HTTP protocol.
    Sort of, but data may be transmitted over the Web using protocols other than http. For example, go to the address bar and type ftp://example.com -- you'll be using the File Transfer Protocol over the web. Similarly you might use nntp://, or whatever.

    The thing is, "the World Wide Web" doesn't really exist as a separate thing... so it's hard to say I suppose whether when you type an "ftp://" irl into a web browser you're still using the web. To me, the web's more conceptual in nature than it is physical. The physical infrastructure is the Internet.
    I have another question regarding this concept. Are coding languages such as 'HTML' and 'PHP' a protocol of there own OR are they a coding language of their own but use the HTTP protocol.
    Not really either. You could use html to lay out a document in Word, for example, and not use http or any other network protocol.

    The most interesting thing to me here is the idea that there are people for whom the web was their first taste of the Internet. For those of us who've been using the net for twenty years or so, it's still a newfangled gimmick.
    Last edited by JayC; 08-22-2003 at 05:55 PM.
    Specializing in SEO and PPC management.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    205
    I don't really consider FTP as part of the "web"... just like people still ask "do you have internet?"

    As for the web: you gotta love Lynx!

  13. #13
    So basically when someone says, "Let's get on the web" they mean let's fire up are Web Browser and access HTTP protocol. I figure HTTP Protocol is one of the many protocols on the Internet that can be intergrated with LOTS of languages. (Client and Server side).

    Thanks to everybody that reply'd You really helped me clear things up

    Regards,
    WebNinja
    Last edited by WebNinja; 08-22-2003 at 06:23 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    6,623
    Originally posted by BlueB
    I don't really consider FTP as part of the "web"...
    That's sort of the point I was getting at. If I create a web page and give you its address as http://example.com/download_here.html, you'd say it's on "the web," right? Now, if that page has a link, that link's also on the web? But that link is to ftp://example.com/file.zip -- when you click on it, your browser will download the file. So, is that file on the web? It's being delivered to you using the ftp protocol.

    just like people still ask "do you have internet?"
    That's probably an accurate way to ask it, though (while perhaps not grammatically the best way). You have an Internet connection, not a web connection.
    Specializing in SEO and PPC management.

  15. #15
    That's sort of the point I was getting at. If I create a web page and give you its address as http://example.com/download_here.html, you'd say it's on "the web," right? Now, if that page has a link, that link's also on the web? But that link is to ftp://example.com/file.zip -- when you click on it, your browser will download the file. So, is that file on the web? It's being delivered to you using the ftp protocol.
    No, I beleive the 'web' is short termology for 'HTTP' protocol. An Internet Browser can access FTP because your browser supports FTP. Just because your browser supports FTP does not mean that certain ftp file is on the web.



    just like people still ask "do you have internet?"
    That's not 'technically' the correct way to ask but not everyone understands this so we all just answer back 'Yes' or 'No'. I don't think I'd correct someone if they asked me that way on the street.

    Regards,
    WebNinja

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    6,623
    Originally posted by WebNinja
    An Internet Browser can access FTP because your browser supports FTP. Just because your browser supports FTP does not mean that certain ftp file is on the web.
    That's interesting. To be clear, I'm not arguing, just exploring...

    So I have a web page, on the web. There's a link on that page to a particular file, and the link is on the web. But that file is not on the web, even though it's on the same server, in the same directory, and will be transferred to your computer over the same network connections through the same software (your browser) on your machine... just because the data is formatted and transmitted under a slightly different set of technical specifications (a protocol)?

    Like I said, that's interesting.

    At the beginning of this thread, you didn't know what a protocol was or what the difference was betwen the World Wide Web and the Internet. So, if I may ask, have you drawn your firmly-stated conclusion, "No, I beleive the 'web' is short termology for 'HTTP' protocol," only from the information in this thread?

    Again, I'm not saying it's wrong. To me the definition of the term "the web" is an elusive one... so I'm interested in how perceptions of it are formed.
    Last edited by JayC; 08-22-2003 at 07:44 PM.
    Specializing in SEO and PPC management.

  17. #17
    At the begenining of this thread I did know what and how protocols worked it was just slightly blurry to me and I was just asking for second opinions on the concept, maybe it came out differently.

    As for an FTP file being on the web... Nope

    The 'web' is short termology for 'HTTP'...

    However, yes, when you type a FTP link into your browser your browser then recognize's the link and starts to download that file to your computer via FTP... The whole process has nothing to do with the web (HTTP). The only reason your able to use your browser to access FTP is because your browser supports FTP...

    Your basically saying that HTTP and FTP are different protocols and just because you can use your HTTP client to download files via FTP means that file is HTTP... No..

    A internet browser is also a FTP client in it's own way

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    6,623
    Originally posted by WebNinja
    Your basically saying that HTTP and FTP are different protocols and just because you can use your HTTP client to download files via FTP means that file is HTTP... No..
    Hey, I'm making no statements at all. I'm asking questions.

    OK, one more: go back to my hypothetical page at http://www.example.com/download_here.html. Now I have two links on that page:

    http://the_big_file.zip

    and

    ftp://the_big_file.zip

    And, my server is configured in such a way that both of those links point to the exact same file. If you click one, a copy of that file will be delivered to you over the Internet using the hypertext transfer protocol. If you click the other, a copy of the same file will be delivered to you over the Internet using the file transfer protocol.

    So of course the question is: Is that file "on the web?"

    If yes, is it still "on the web" if I remove that first link, without changing anything about the file, my server, or how the server is connected to the Internet?
    Specializing in SEO and PPC management.

  19. #19
    I'm going to say this one more time.

    HTTP (Hyper Text Transfer Protocol) MEANS WWW (World Wide Web)

    HTTP cannot transfer files BUT FTP (File Transfer Protocol) CAN!!!

    HTTP means the web.

    If HTTP cannot transfer files that also means there not being transfered via the web..

    BECAUSE HTTP IS THE WEB...

    Enough said, I will not continue the thread because 'technically' I am correct..

    P.S. Sure http://the_big_file.zip can be pointed to the download.. THATS DNS POINTING.. It's a WHOLE different concept..

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    6,623
    Originally posted by WebNinja
    Enough said, I will not continue the thread because 'technically' I am correct..
    I certainly have never said you are not correct "technically" or otherwise; I haven't disagreed with you at any point. I haven't looked at this at all as an argument; I asked how you defined "the web" and was interested in learning how you had arrived at that definition.

    Well... I would disagree with this:
    HTTP cannot transfer files
    Of course it can. That's why it's called the hypertext transfer protocol, after all. Every file you view is transferred to your computer.

    But what I was getting at is the perception of what the web is. It seems like the same file could, under this definition, be both on the web and not on the web at the same time. I find that an interesting concept; I apologize if you felt you had to be on the defensive. I was looking at this exchange as more or less an anthropological exploration, which is why I said at the beginning that I was "exploring" and that I was simply finding it interesting.

    Again, my apologies; clearly you haven't been finding it so interesting.
    Last edited by JayC; 08-22-2003 at 09:38 PM.
    Specializing in SEO and PPC management.

  21. #21
    No, I appologize for all the missconception..

    I've come to a conclusion that we are both right in certain aspects..

    It's always a good thing to get different views on things and it all depends on who you talk to and what their definitions are on the workings of things weather it be the internet or something totally different...

    Regards,
    WebNinja

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    central Illinois
    Posts
    65
    I'm not a sysadmin guru, but I believe that a file transfer via http is not just a matter of pointing an http URL at ftp software. Hypertertext transfer protocol was developed to encompass several older types of information exchange, including downloading files. The idea was to create an environment where people could download just about anything without needing to fire up a seperate piece of software to serve as a client in the transfer. For users who rarely do anything but point and click, there may be no perceptible difference. However, in the case of http, Web server software handles communications with a browser client. In the case of ftp, file server software or perhaps even some feature of an operating system functions to coordinate the transfer of data. In both cases the same file is sent, but there are technical differences in the way requests are sent and acknowledged. That's really what the protocols are all about -- html is html and a zipped archive is a zipped archive, no matter how they are sent and recieved. However, getting those files out to the right machines as efficiently as possible involved that the data be packaged in a way that coordinates the flow of information.

    Regards,
    pro

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •