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Thread: Where to get SpamExperts
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09-21-2019, 04:35 AM #1Aspiring Evangelist
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Where to get SpamExperts
Hello,
I am not sure if this is a good place to post this question but I know that SpamExperts can also be self-hosted and then it's a software so I hope this section is WHT is acceptable.
We are looking to get SpamExperts services for our hosting customers but we'd like to buy this in the beginning as a service from another provider (SpamExperts direct purchase seems expensive at this point). Are there providers that sell SpamExperts services to smaller hosting companies at a good price?
Thanks!
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09-21-2019, 09:06 AM #2
You can't purchase SE pn premise unless your server provider provides it.
Look for MailChannels instead. It will allow you a low starting cost if you get it from your server provider.█||||[ MechanicWeb.com - Shared Hosting | Reseller Hosting | KVM VPS | Dedicated Server ]
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09-22-2019, 02:14 AM #3Aspiring Evangelist
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Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately we can't get anything from our upstream datacenters. We are a local (national) hoster and we use 2 DCs and neither is any good at this. Now with the cPanel ridiculous move, one of our DCs offered us cPanel for a much bigger price than we'd pay to buy directly from cPanel licenses one by one, and the other is still considering if they'll offer cPanel or not. So you imagine that either SE or MC are way too far away from their interests (I bet they've never heard of either one).
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09-22-2019, 04:38 AM #4Premium Member
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We are using SpamExperts ourselves and had been contacted by MailChannels recently with a very good pricing but weren't keen due to some key differences in how the software works, so we can provide some insight to you which can hopefully help you to make a more informed choice with more accurate information.
SpamExperts offer two setups, one is Local Cloud and one is Hosted.
A Local Cloud setup means apart from leasing the usage of their software, you also need to provide them with the servers to install the software on (i.e. you colocate/lease the servers as well) so this is an added cost on top of the licensing. Also, you are free to lease the servers from anywhere - it can be a VPS or a Dedicated Server - and you absolutely do not require your datacenter to provide the software for you (i.e. they don't need to be a software reseller or any nonsense like that) because all along you just liaise directly with SpamExperts and provide them with your filtering servers' login details so they can install the software and run routine software updates for you.
A Hosted setup means you only lease the software but there is usually a premium involved because of the fact you are using their servers to route emails through.
A Local Cloud setup does involve a higher upfront cost but starts to make sense once you are sending at least a million emails a month. But I would say the main benefit of using a Local Cloud setup is the much higher rate of email delivery than any hosted setup (regardless of MailChannels or SpamExperts) can do. This is because only your own emails are routed through your own filtering servers and this allows you to gradually build up a better IP reputation over time which is something a Hosted setup can never provide.
And yes, you'd be surprised but even using SpamExperts or MailChannels does not guarantee a high rate of email delivery. Unfortunately many budget/irresponsible providers advertise their services as having near 100% email delivery rate which is completely untrue if they are using a Hosted setup. In fact it is precisely the proliferation of these softwares in the past years which caused the delivery rate for Hosted setups to decline drastically in recent years. Because in the past, budget and/or irresponsible providers would at least need to know how to monitor their servers for spam otherwise they risk getting shut down by the datacenter for abuse reports, but now they just route their emails through the Hosted setups and the consequences are much lower for them.
When we tested the Hosted setups - and we still do so occasionally as part of our ongoing R&D - majority of emails were never making it to the Inbox and were instead being sent to the Junk folder. I believe both SpamExperts and MailChannels run a free trial and you are free to test it yourself. In terms of public email providers, Gmail is an extremely easy provider to send emails into the Inbox for, try Hotmail, Yahoo and AT&T and you will see what I mean. As a result with many of the budget providers using a Hosted setup, when you ask them why your emails are entering Spam, they will never have a concrete answer for you and would either tell you the requirements with Hotmail/Yahoo/AT&T are unknown or to ask the recipient to whitelist your email addresses which is obviously not feasible when you/your clients are operating an eCommerce setup. This is why even though a Hosted setup can be extremely/potentially cheap and there is zero effort needed for maintenance, we will never consider it. As a matter of fact, SpamExperts and MailChannels have increased their Hosted setup prices in recent years, probably because they realized the issues all the budget and/or inexperienced providers are causing to the quality of their IP Addresses, and that probably gives you an idea of how cheap their prices were getting before.
By the way, MailChannels sort your email by quality and send the emails it thinks to be lower quality through IP Addresses that are on blacklists. Based on a fairly recent discussion, it seems the types of emails include quotations, invoices and so on. So with MailChannels, it is bad enough that on a Hosted setup, even the "better quality IP Addresses" already have a low chance of making it into the Inbox of several major email providers, but on top of that seemingly important emails involved in eCommerce are also being deliberately sent via "low quality IP Addresses".
All in all, a Local Cloud can be extra work but for us and most of the non-budget providers, it is definitely worth the extra time and effort. Pricing wise it makes sense past a certain email volume which is honestly easy to meet if you have at least a few servers.Last edited by HostWithLove_Cody; 09-22-2019 at 04:43 AM.
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09-22-2019, 04:58 AM #5Aspiring Evangelist
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Thank you very much for this detailed answer! Based on this, we'd never use MailChannels. Simply sticking to the cPanel's default SpamAssassin seems like a much better option. I mean receiving spam is bothering our customers but an increased rate of delivery to the spam folder would be a much much bigger problem.
But I have one question regarding SpamExperts: if we'd only use hosted cloud inbound filtering, would our outbound email still get delivered through SE's IPs? Thanks!Last edited by AndyB78; 09-22-2019 at 05:02 AM.
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09-22-2019, 05:42 AM #6Web Hosting Master
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We were using Spam Experts for inbound filtering through our server provider and Mail Channels for outbound filtering also through the same provider.
We have since moved our hosting platform to Microsoft Azure and all customers are required to buy Office365 hosted exchange.
This has saved us money and time in not having to bother trying to manage mail servers.
We also moved our DNS service into Azure and our external monitoring as well.
With the Cpanel price increases it really made us evaluate our entire business.CPK Web Services
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09-22-2019, 05:48 AM #7Web Hosting Master
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In terms of the Mail Channels platform, nothing wrong with it, the outbound filtering works fine, Spam Experts for inbound missed a bit of critical mail though, it allowed some pretty nasty fishing emails through and blocked mail from PayPal and banks so it was hit and miss.
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09-22-2019, 06:21 AM #8Aspiring Evangelist
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We are not considering giving in our business to Microsoft but we have lost a few customers to Microsoft Exchange services that would have accepted nothing else so we were wondering if we could implement this on a smaller scale. Can you say if you know what would be a minimum commitment for a small host to start reselling Microsoft mail services? Thanks!
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09-22-2019, 06:40 AM #9
Well, when it comes to SpamExperts vs MailChannels discussion, the opinions are obviously going to be biased as the users of either platform will favor their choice.
Whether the opinions are worthy of taking into consideration lies in the details of the opinions posted. Some would say whatever that come into their mind attacking/insulting others while supporting their own opinions. You might want to ignore those opinions.
MailChannels does allow a few key advantages over SpamExperts, specially for smaller/budget providers. Smaller/budget providers don't necessarily mean they deliver poor quality, rather some of them actually provide better quality hosting services than some of the higher priced providers. Same goes for data centers. You will find some data centers offer servers with a higher price while others offer the same or better servers with recent (and better) hardware for a lower price but with a better service. There are a number of such server/shared hosting providers here on WHT and you would be amazed at the price differences among them:
Here are some of the benefits of MailChannels:
1. Low starting cost
2. Less management required. So more time for you to focus into other things.
3. Better email deliverability to Hotmail and other 'hard to deliver' ISPs due to it's approach of using thousands of IPs to send email.
4. It scans the emails relayed from your server in real time and reclassifies them as they are being sent. If a rouge user somehow get past the spam filter, which happens with both SE and MC once in a while, and if MC detects the user is sending bulk email, MC automatically reclassifies the email and send them out using specific IP blocks to eliminate chances of hurting the reputation of its 'main' IP blocks that have a higher reputation. By doing this, it ensures increased email deliverability for legitimate emails that are sent using its 'main' IP blocks.
5. You can get MC from any provider and integrate it into a server with another provider.
There are other benefits too over SE. If you search on the hosting forums, you would see that there has been a recent trend of switching to MC from SC, too.Last edited by MechanicWeb-shoss; 09-22-2019 at 06:48 AM.
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09-22-2019, 07:08 AM #10The Linux Specialist
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Since you mentioned SpamAssassin, you should look at RSpamd. Really amazing and very effective than SpamAssassin. We have one server receiving a lot of spam with spamassassin enabled and after switching to RSpamd, boom.... gone. You can even monitor it easily by using Redis.
Specially 4 U
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09-22-2019, 08:13 AM #11Web Hosting Master
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09-22-2019, 10:01 AM #12Premium Member
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Inbound and Outbound Filtering are two different products. If you are solely using Inbound Filtering then it is entirely fine to use the Hosted setup because the IP reputation of the email server isn't factored into the equation for receiving emails.
My point about the Local Cloud setup triumphing over the Hosted setup is when Outbound Filtering is concerned because any email being sent is directly delivered by the filtering servers' IP Addresses. As long as it is a Hosted setup, and I will emphasize it really doesn't matter whether the software is SpamExperts or MailChannels, the fundamental flaw is the same in that both softwares have a pool of IP Addresses which is being shared amongst millions of emails being sent on a daily basis. Any email you send is randomly delivered via one of the thousands of IP Addresses within the pool and this is precisely the issue - while you can control how much spam is being transmitted from your own servers, you can't control how much spam is being transmitted by other users of the Hosted setup and honestly many of the IP Addresses within the pool (again, whether it is SpamExperts or MailChannels) are never going to make it into the inboxes of the three very specific email providers I mentioned (Hotmail, Yahoo and AT&T) and instead get delivered directly to the Junk folder.
If you read some of my other posts on the forums, you will notice I give very specific details on this topic and this is only possible because we have done an inordinate and extensive research in this area for very good reasons.
Here is a point I mentioned on the forums before and I doubt you will hear it coming from anyone else: Although unpublished, we have consistently found that these three email providers (Hotmail, Yahoo and AT&T) are much more stringent in accepting an email and sending it to Inbox instead of Spam folder. As anyone with experience in this field can attest, you can try sending an email from an IP Address which is not blacklisted on any RBL or even a completely new IP range which was just obtained from any RIR, the email will in most cases get delivered straight into Spam folder even though it is "clean". It seems the policy with these email providers is to ensure your IP Address is not only "clean" but you also need to "prove" it by sending a decent volume of emails with low spam report rate over a period of time (usually weeks) to their mailservers, before their system flags your IP Address as "good" for your emails to get delivered into Inbox automatically. The tough part about this is it can take weeks for your IP Address to be treated as "good" but it can take just one day of poor emails making through the filters and then the whole process resets. Surely you can see, with this sort of condition it is almost impossible to get emails from a Hosted setup to be delivered to Inbox for these providers.
The quandary is if either SpamExperts or MailChannels are willing to spend and get their IP ranges certified with programs such as Return Path or 250ok then my opinion on a Hosted setup would change, otherwise for now the hard truth is anyone telling you a Hosted setup allows good delivery to Hotmail/Yahoo/AT&T's Inbox is grossly misinformed and either has other agenda or has probably never run any field tests. Honestly it really doesn't take much to prove my point - just send a few emails from a MailChannels or SpamExperts Hosted setup and see how many of those actually makes it to the Inbox.
But I guess depending on the marketed clientele or your current situation, having a Hosted setup can still be an improvement if lets say you are consistently struggling with gettings emails delivered in the first place. For example you may be seeing a lot of bouncebacks (i.e. outright rejections), then in this case having the emails accepted by most email providers, with the drawback that emails to Hotmail/Yahoo/AT&T are still accepted but enter Spam folder, it could still be considered an upgrade.
However for us and a few other reputable providers, we've found email delivery to be an extremely core aspect of our hosting service and getting emails delivered into Inbox really matters, so it is well worth the extra effort with a Local Cloud setup where you would have 100% control over the IP Addresses being used and so on. Notice I didn't mention pricing, because it is honestly fairly similar past a certain volume and what really comes out additional is the extra effort being put in.
Think of it this way, you are being served two pizzas, one is hand-made and one is mass-manufactured by a caterer. In most cases the hand-made one is going to taste better because more effort and attention to detail has been put in. Similarly it can be easy and effortless to offload the email delivery entirely to either SpamExperts or MailChannels by using their Hosted setup and it might work in "filling your stomach" in the sense the emails would still get delivered but in terms of "taste" it is going to lose out because emails sent to Hotmail, Yahoo and AT&T (again notice I specifically mention these 3 but not Gmail and other providers) which are arguably major email providers would in most cases enter the Junk folder.█ HostWithLove.com - World Class Hosting Personalized - 9 Locations Across 4 Continents
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09-22-2019, 09:34 PM #13█||||[ MechanicWeb.com - Shared Hosting | Reseller Hosting | KVM VPS | Dedicated Server ]
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09-22-2019, 11:19 PM #14Web Hosting Master
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09-23-2019, 02:08 AM #15WHT Addict
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There is also Magicspam, which is very affordable in comparison to SE or MC. Anyone have any experience using Magicspam?
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09-23-2019, 09:38 AM #16Junior Guru Wannabe
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Hosted cloud - yes.
One thing that wasn't mentioned about SpamEsxperts is that using Local Cloud you can tweak settings\filters yourself. For example, if your email was blocked by SE you can release it and "teach" SE not to filter such messages. With Hosted cloud you'll have to contact SE.
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09-23-2019, 09:56 PM #17Web Hosting Master
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09-24-2019, 06:50 AM #18WHT Addict
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Thanks Vince, that's good to know!
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