View Poll Results: Have you ever been to Court on an issue relating to your web hosting business?

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  • Yes

    8 18.18%
  • No

    36 81.82%
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  1. #1

    ArmChair Attorneys

    It's amazing how many people offer "legal advice" here. Seeing all these ArmChair Attorneys I have to ask;
    How many people have been to court over a web hosting issue? I don't mean a settlement or letters. I mean in court with Lawyers and a Judge to decide an issue pertaining to your web hosting business.

    Be honest...

  2. #2
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    What is amazing is how many people always threaten action with a lawyer knowing they don't even have one on retainer

  3. #3
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    Don't take this the wrong way but it's the American Dream, to sue some fat cat and live on easy street for the rest of your life.
    Nobody has and sense of responsibility anymore.

    Hey, I have cancer. Sue the cigarette companies for making me smoke.
    Hey, I'm fat. Sue the fast food companies for making me eat their food.
    Hey, I burned my leg with coffee. Sue McDonald's for serving their coffee too hot.

    We have children suing parents, people suing the electric company because they got drunk and ran into a power pole, people suing gun manufacturers because someone used a certain type of gun to kill. And we have people who want to sue their web host because their site was down for an hour. Where does it end?

    We all pay higher insurance rates for virtually everything because of frivolous law suits.

    Why would anyone even want to pretend to be a lawyer?

    That's my rant for the day.

  4. #4
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    LOL, yeah, that's an unrelated topic (not what Watcher_TVI was saying), but I hear you. I love the emails I get from people who get banned. I have many, but some good ones:

    "I am also in contact with a lawyer to discuss what you have done 2 times"

    His posts were removed.

    "please explain ASAP why I cannot use the forum . If I don't receive a reply immediately and you will turn ON my forum permission IMMEDIATELY I will ask a <snip> chargeback today and I will contact my lawyer to act against YOU , you are adviced ."

    He was banned.

    Anyhow, I don't entirely see how 'offering legal advice' and 'going to court over a web hosting issue' are related. If you're trying to discredit someone (or several people), then you need to make a better point. If you're question is, "How many people have been to court over a web hosting issue?" then that's one thing, and an interesting question. But your tangent of 'offering legal advice' and, "Be honest... " leads me to think you're trying (poorly) to make another point.

    Many people offer legal advice who shouldn't (your neighbor, your brother or sister, your mother or father, your friends, etc.). Unless you've been living in a hole for your lifetime, you've come across these people. Is this news? Not to me at least.
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  5. #5
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    Re: ArmChair Attorneys

    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
    It's amazing how many people offer "legal advice" here.
    I'm with Chicken; it's not really "amazing" because it's not unique to here. It's quite common. People offer legal advice all the time. They also coach their favorite football team, and they all are apparently very talented television programmers, newspaper editors, etc.

    The point is that people like to offer their opinions on things. And actually if anything were amazing, it'd be that people ask for legal advice from people whom they've for the most part never met, and know almost nothing about -- except that they aren't lawyers.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken
    Anyhow, I don't entirely see how 'offering legal advice' and 'going to court over a web hosting issue' are related. If you're trying to discredit someone (or several people), then you need to make a better point. If you're question is, "How many people have been to court over a web hosting issue?" then that's one thing, and an interesting question. But your tangent of 'offering legal advice' and, "Be honest... " leads me to think you're trying (poorly) to make another point.
    You're on a Witch Hunt Chicken. I'll explain what I was thinking for you.

    There have been a LOT of threads lately with many different people posting what would amount to legal opinions. No I am not talking about anyone in particular. If I had someone in mind I would have probably talked to him or her off the forum. I am just curious as to how many people have really been involved in a courtroom issue over a web hosting issue.

    I don't have to posses some hidden agenda to post a poll here do I?

  7. #7
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    Sure there's been several this past week - we've had several hosts suddenly disappear.

    Whenever business is involved you're always going to hear about lawyers, and legal advice. Nobody wants to "get screwed"

    And as a lost resort, some threaten legal action (sometimes with no legal ground to stand on). It's a bargaining chip - the word -lawyer- seems to carry with it a certain feeling of fear.

    And one more thing - taking somebody to court over several dollars is really a complete waste of time. No company or client is willing to "go all the way"
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  8. #8
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    And many posts asks for legal advice, knowing that they won't be receiving it from an attorney.

    Some people are pretty adept at legal issues. Some are toatally confused. A person that gets around the law library fine can help shed some light for someone that didn't know there's a public law library. Let alone, how to use it.

    My post ain't about law libraries. It's about the expectations of the person seeking advice.

    If he wanted advice from an attorney, he would have went to an attorney.
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  9. #9
    about people threatening to bring suit: if you are unable to spell two and three syllable long words, i reserve the right to disbelieve the fact that you can afford an attorney and ridicule you in response to the threat.

    about people giving legal advice: even lawyers will often need to perform a substantial amount of research to render a recommendation. when you receive legal advice from anyone other than a legal professional who has researched the issue at hand, please assume that it is just an opinion based on common sense and a varying amount of background information. with that said, some have more common sense than others and are quite able to give useful opinions.

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  10. #10
    I think in the US the legal lobby has everyone thinking sue first and see if it was smart later.

    Most people that say go "get a lawyer" over a $50 or $100 issue haven't priced a decent Attorney lately. 9 out of 10 times it's not worth it unless you are talking substantial amounts of money.

    I don't know many Attorneys but the ones I do know wouldn't even walk into a courtroom for less then a grand.

  11. #11

    Dirt settling

    Why do you exclude out-of-court settlements from the poll? ADR, arbitration and mediation are very much a lawyer's work.

    Just because a matter doesn't get judged in court doesn't mean it's not "legal experience". I'd say out-of-court settlements adds more to a person's knowledge than cases decided by a judge. In fact, the vast majority of cases are settled (I think it's 90 per cent).

  12. #12
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    An actual lawyer in most states cannot give advice to anyone here. That is why you do not see free help legal services, forum style situations. There may be some states (lawyers are governed by state law) that do not have this restriction, but I am unfamiliar with any such state.

    I have a family full of lawyers, though I do not use them for my business, I like my lawyers mean. We have also had some pretty amazing lawyers in the privacy and copyright front offer us private advice on some subjects.

    I have never been to court, as that would be losing, unless you are on the offensive, you don't ever want it to get to court (not counting court orders served against us for information on users who comitted crimes). We have been served numerous times, have been threatened more times than I can count.

    I imagine there are many people here who have explored the legal ramications of certain acts, or have had a lawyer look into an aspect of their business. That is valid information, that does not need to be tested in the courts, and is nice that people share.

    Chet

  13. #13
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    about people threatening to bring suit: if you are unable to spell two and three syllable long words, i reserve the right to disbelieve the fact that you can afford an attorney and ridicule you in response to the threat.
    Ya, proper grammer counts too
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  14. #14
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    Originally posted by blue27
    Don't take this the wrong way but it's the American Dream, to sue some fat cat and live on easy street for the rest of your life.

    That's my rant for the day.
    I know, I know, I know you were being sarcastic. I also agree. But I can't help but reacting to your first sentence.

    The problem is that too many people think that it is the Amercian Dream.

    There are some who won't see the sarcasm as such.

    The Amercian Dream surely, isn't the right to litigate to death.

    The American Dream, if memory serves, is the right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

    Liberty, includes freedom from litigatory death.

    Thank you for your rant of the day. I've had my rant for the day too.

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  15. #15
    idologicJeff,

    I hear ya. However, over the years, "become rich and famous" has been added to that list

    People want money, and as much of it as they can get. Folks such as Donald Trump, Bill Gates III, Vincent K. McMahon, and Ted Turner, have made money, look more appealing than actual values. Their lifestyles and their ability to buy practically anything they wish or choose to, has made others sit back in jealousy, wanting that very life.

    Unfortunately, the legal population of our country has made it appear as though the easiest way to fulfill that portion of the, "new american dream," is to sue someone's ass off in court, for any reason.

    I guess you could say, that it's not the official "american dream," but it certainly has been added to the list, at least in the minds of the majority of our population.
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  16. #16
    Originally posted by idoogleceo
    Unfortunately, the legal population of our country has made it appear as though the easiest way to fulfill that portion of the, "new american dream," is to sue someone's ass off in court, for any reason.
    Is that the main reason people sue or threaten to sue in the US? To extort money? I think in the rest of the world, it's not the lawyer who instigates the suit, it's one of the parties feeling like s**t after getting horrible treatment from the other.

    Said horrible treatment usually includes bad speling and por gramer.

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by artsreview
    . . . . . . . Said horrible treatment usually includes bad speling and por gramer.
    heh . . . . . well . . . . that's funny.
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  18. #18
    lol....

    Yes the fat kids sued McDonalds because they felt like crap, after McDonalds forced them to eat 8 Big Macs a day.

    It was McDonalds' fault they were fat.

    Extortion is certainly not the primary reason behind people filing suit against others, but in cases like above (which are occuring more and more) it certainly is.

    For example, you cannot tell me that those people actually believed it was McDonalds' fault. They knew what they were doing. They knew their asses we getting 'super sized' by the day, and that it was their own fault. However, since they wanted money, and felt like slobs of their own accord, they decided to go after McDonalds to make them feel better about themselves.....period.

    As for "armchair" attorneys..... I'm probably guilty of it myself lol. However, I try not to advise anyone, on matters I'm not familiar with. If it's something that sparks my interest, and I don't know the answer, I ask my attorney. This not only gives me insight on certain topics, but it also, helps me to avoid the same situations, that many of the folks tend to find themselves in.
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  19. #19
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    Originally posted by artsreview
    I think in the rest of the world, it's not the lawyer who instigates the suit, it's one of the parties feeling like s**t after getting horrible treatment from the other.
    Even in the US, I don't think lawyers have the abililty to spontaneously initiate proceedings (thank God).

    The legal system still requires others to initiate, however, they do have the ability to stretch things out indefinately!
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  20. #20
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    Speaking of armchair attorney's idoogleceo, what do you think of the SCO business?

    For those that don't know SCO is trying to get IBM to pay a billion for contributing to Linux source code

    They feel IBM is stealing from Aix and contributing to linux (give me a fricken break!)

    -oh and idoogleceo theres something about your name I like, but I still can't quite put my finger on it
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  21. #21
    well although I have no "legal" view on it, I feel that it's garbage.
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  22. #22
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    Does small claims court count? Where their are no attorneys allowed, and there's a magistrate instead of a judge? I've been there, suing for money owed us.
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  23. #23

    Re: Dirt settling

    Originally posted by artsreview
    Why do you exclude out-of-court settlements from the poll? ADR, arbitration and mediation are very much a lawyer's work.

    Just because a matter doesn't get judged in court doesn't mean it's not "legal experience". I'd say out-of-court settlements adds more to a person's knowledge than cases decided by a judge. In fact, the vast majority of cases are settled (I think it's 90 per cent).
    I excluded out of court settlements due to costs. You can get a settlement for a lot less money then you can get a Court verdict. The point being that most people who are going to sue you won't ever do more then waste your time. Add that to the fact that web hosting is normally not a high dollar per transaction type of business where a Court appearance would be warranted.

    I'm curious as to what the issues were that caused those 4 people that said "yes" to the poll to got to court about.

    No, Small Claims doesn't count. That is why I specified in the first post the court appearance would be with Lawyers and a Judge.

  24. #24
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    Here's a reason i've never gone, to court, small claims etc..

    I've never put myself in such a position to be sued.
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  25. #25
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    Watcher_TVI, from you continued limiting of the original question, I do not think you understand how the legal system works most of the time. Small claims court and out of court settlements is what most hosts will face, yet you exclude these so your original statement about people giving advice can be false? I pay lawyers not to go to court.

    People on WHT are giving advice on legal issues as they happen in the hosting world, yet those very cases in the real world are being excluded by you, making your whole point moot.

    Why not just limit it to people named jim being sued by people named bob? It would be just as relevant.

    Chet

  26. #26
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    Originally posted by chet
    Watcher_TVI, from you continued limiting of the original question, I do not think you understand how the legal system works most of the time. Small claims court and out of court settlements is what most hosts will face, yet you exclude these so your original statement about people giving advice can be false? I pay lawyers not to go to court.

    People on WHT are giving advice on legal issues as they happen in the hosting world, yet those very cases in the real world are being excluded by you, making your whole point moot.

    Why not just limit it to people named jim being sued by people named bob? It would be just as relevant.

    Chet

    People, this is Watcher_TVI's poll. He can include whatever the hell he wants to. If you don't like it don't vote or go read another post. What's the big deal?

  27. #27
    Originally posted by chet
    Watcher_TVI, from you continued limiting of the original question,
    Continued limiting? I've added nothing new to the original question Chet, try reading it.
    Originally posted by chet
    I do not think you understand how the legal system works most of the time. Small claims court and out of court settlements is what most hosts will face, yet you exclude these so your original statement about people giving advice can be false? I pay lawyers not to go to court.
    Well I will disagree with you here. I know all too well how the Courts in my State work things, so when I see people making statements like "Take them to court" I know they are generally made in ignorance of how much money it costs to do that.
    Originally posted by chet
    People on WHT are giving advice on legal issues as they happen in the hosting world, yet those very cases in the real world are being excluded by you, making your whole point moot.
    Perhaps you missed the point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher_TVI
    The point being that most people who are going to sue you won't ever do more then waste your time. Add that to the fact that web hosting is normally not a high dollar per transaction type of business where a Court appearance would be warranted.
    Perhaps a more thorough read of the thread would help you comprehend a bit better?
    Originally posted by chet Why not just limit it to people named jim being sued by people named bob? It would be just as relevant.
    Because Jim had it coming to him anyway?

  28. #28
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    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
    . . . . . . so when I see people making statements like "Take them to court" I know they are generally made in ignorance of how much money it costs to do that. . . . . . .
    It's a term commonly used to mean the same thing as, "Consult an attorney about any legal recourse you may have. Although a 'court appearance' may not be necessary, it is often what precipitates out-of-court settlements. In fact, most out-of-court settlements are entered into after actual court papers are filed. Your lawyer would be able to advise you further on this matter," but we just say, "Take them to court," because it's easier to type.

    I still don't understand what you hope to gain from this thread.
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  29. #29
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    Re: ArmChair Attorneys

    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
    It's amazing how many people offer "legal advice" here. Seeing all these ArmChair Attorneys I have to ask;
    How many people have been to court over a web hosting issue? I don't mean a settlement or letters. I mean in court with Lawyers and a Judge to decide an issue pertaining to your web hosting business.

    Be honest...
    I can't speak for Watcher_TVI but it looks like he may be trying to determine a ratio between how many times lawsuits are threatened and how many actually come to fruition.

  30. #30
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    Okay, then I am entirely confused by this thread.


    It's amazing how many people offer "legal advice" here. Seeing all these ArmChair Attorneys I have to ask;
    How many people have been to court over a web hosting issue? I don't mean a settlement or letters. I mean in court with Lawyers and a Judge to decide an issue pertaining to your web hosting business.
    To me, you are saying many people on these forums give legal advice, but you are curious about those people giving advice, how well do they know the subject by actually being involved in a case. If that isn't what your first post was getting at, what was it getting at?

    And I agree with SoftWareRevue, "take them to court" is just short hand.

    Chet

  31. #31
    I posted the point.....twice...
    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher_TVI
    The point being that most people who are going to sue you won't ever do more then waste your time. Add that to the fact that web hosting is normally not a high dollar per transaction type of business where a Court appearance would be warranted.
    @SoftwareRevue, taking someone to Court costs money, more then what would normally be warranted from a web hosting dispute. The fact that 4 out of 29 people so far have seen the inside of a Courtroom over a web hosting dispute bears out the fact that there simply isn't enough money in a web hosting dispute to pay lawyers to take it all the way to a Courtroom.

  32. #32
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    So are you trying to warn us not to sue people over "web hosting issues?"
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  33. #33
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    I thougth that was a side point, as that does not seem to be the intent of the original question, but I will go with it since you did post it, you know best.

    And they would still or could still take you to small claims COURT. As you correctly stated, the dollar amount is low so these would be small claims, not criminal or a major civil case. So I stay confused, also small claims court is not expensive. So people who exercise their rights in small claims court aren't really doing it because it is not a high enough dollar amount?

    Also jurisdiction plays a part as most hosts and customers do not live in the same area, and most hosts have a clause that they follow the law of their state and the court venue will be local to them. While this can be ignored from some instances, if you accepted the terms with an electronic signature, you have agreed to the venue.

    Chet

  34. #34
    You can go to Small Claims and never even consult a Lawyer, in fact all you need to know how to do is fill out a form and write a check. That hardly makes you a legal expert now does it?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoftwareRevue
    So are you trying to warn us not to sue people over "web hosting issues?"
    Close, I am saying that the dollar amounts that I see discussed here at WHT certainly don't warrant Lawyers fees and a Court appearance.

  35. #35
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    So what you are proposing is, that when someone asks for legal advice, we first ask them how much money it involves (I've seen no figures from you. So I don't know what you are basing on). If we (or you) figure it isn't a very large sum, we should advise them to do nothing. If the dollar amount is enough (still don't know what that figure is), then tell them to consult an attorney. Is that about it? Sorry if I seem dense. I'm just trying to figure out what this thread is about.
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  36. #36
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    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
    Close, I am saying that the dollar amounts that I see discussed here at WHT certainly don't warrant Lawyers fees and a Court appearance.
    Dont know how true that is. Whenever we have brought anything up to our attorney He tells us how much it will cost and for us to figure out if it is worth it.

    In most cases if you win money you will also be awarded lawyer fees.

    There is no set amount to warrant lawyer fees and court appearances.

    That is a judgement call.
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  37. #37
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    In michigan, you're not allowed attorney representation in small claims court, but in some states you are. Also, if we had disagreed with what the magistrate decided, we could have appealed it to be heard by a judge. Still in small claims court. FYI.

    Also, the question says court. It's possible that some didn't read on to your post, but just answered the question in the poll. And if you really wanted information on web hosts being sued, you should have excluded where the web host was doing the suing, or where the court hearing was for something administrative like determining the legal status of a corporation.
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  38. #38
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    I go to court each and every month. I am the landlord, owner of a couple of apartment complexs. Sometimes I use our attorney, sometimes I do not.
    I write all the legal forms for removing people from my property.
    I have heard every dead beat reason why,"you cannot pay me."
    The going thing now: Because parents will not get off their fat butts and watch their children,"sue your landlord!" Children hang themselves on the mini blind cord (sad), while the parent(s) are smoking crack, shooting the ****, outside doing what ever and it is my fault your child dies?
    I spent $6,000 to put up a pool fence better then code and you fail to watch your child, follow our property rules and the laws of this State. Your child drowns because you fail to be a proper parent, sue me?
    I go to classes to keep very current on the law.
    I raised all my children (3) as a single parent and not one died because I failed to be a proper parent. Yes, one is a lawyer!
    Being able to sue people is way out of control in this country! Being able to sue because you have failed to do what is proper is a not so funny joke.
    Sorry for going on, but sue, sue ,sue!
    PS: I was a dad single parent......................
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  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by SoftwareRevue
    So what you are proposing is, that when someone asks for legal advice, we first ask them how much money it involves (I've seen no figures from you. So I don't know what you are basing on).
    No problem, you must have missed this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher_TVI
    Most people that say go "get a lawyer" over a $50 or $100 issue haven't priced a decent Attorney lately. 9 out of 10 times it's not worth it unless you are talking substantial amounts of money.

    I don't know many Attorneys but the ones I do know wouldn't even walk into a courtroom for less then a grand.
    Obviously I can't quote an exact number because Attorney fees can vary as much as web hosting does. If the amount is less then the cost of the Attorney's time then it's not worth telling people to "Go to Court" is it? Common sense would say no, yet time and again I see people offering their armchair solutions to take a web host to Court for not refunding them for a month or two of web hosting.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarcD
    Dont know how true that is. Whenever we have brought anything up to our attorney He tells us how much it will cost and for us to figure out if it is worth it.

    In most cases if you win money you will also be awarded lawyer fees.
    That is so not true in PA and NJ! I've never been compensated for any Lawyer fees in any judgments we won. Ever! If you can consult an Attorney for free or have one on retainer then asking them what it would cost is a good move. Then you can make a judgment call and determine if it's worth it. Not everyone has the luxury of a Lawyer on retainer or free consultations. AN initial consultation can even be costly. I know I have written off thousands in bad debt because it would have cost more then that to get a judgment though.
    Quote Originally Posted by bitserve
    Also, the question says court. It's possible that some didn't read on to your post, but just answered the question in the poll.
    The question did need a bit of explanation so I included it in the post. WHT isn't really the picture of scientific poll perfection so it's possible that the results are skewed a tad...

    I still think it's pretty obvious that a vast majority of people involved in web hosting never end up in Court.


    nvphone, I truly feel your frustration. I have also had to deal with my fair share of ludicrous suits.

  40. #40
    Originally posted by SoftWareRevue
    So what you are proposing is, that when someone asks for legal advice, we first ask them how much money it involves (I've seen no figures from you. So I don't know what you are basing on). If we (or you) figure it isn't a very large sum, we should advise them to do nothing. If the dollar amount is enough (still don't know what that figure is), then tell them to consult an attorney. Is that about it? Sorry if I seem dense. I'm just trying to figure out what this thread is about.
    I don't quite think that is what what is being advocated here. Increasinly, the legal system is playing a role in technology industry and issues.

    The question that started this thread off was simple enough, it seems to have been trying to determine how many people had legal experience (with regard to the web hosting business) and how many had opinions (arm chair or otherwise)

    Just because someone seems dense about this thread, doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

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