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  1. #1
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    No support dedicated server

    I am planning to offer no support dedicated server and wonder if there is a market for it, or someone is already doing this ?

    As the name "no support" means, there will be no technical support provide for whatsoever means, this is one step further than "unmanaged server" or "self managed server" as there is no support for network or server hardware issue.

    Server is billed on daily basis, user will be provide with ipmi/ipkvm access to self manage the server. If there is network problem or hardware problem, customer can cancel the server anytime as it is bill on daily basis.

    The plan is to deploy in multiple data center, one in LA, one in Dallas and one in New York, so that customer can create their own redundancy across difference data center.

    Each data center is using a single upstream which will be difference from the other data center, so when there is a network problem, user can switch to another backup server in the other data center which is on difference network.

    There will be no server hardware, upgrade, downgrade, as all hardware config is preset and fixed. If the server is breakdown, no repair will be done on the server.

    This project is to be deployed and fully tested by a contractor and after that there will be no one maintaining this system for the next 3 year.

    There is will no ddos protection service and automated null route will be configure to null ip when there is attack.

    Network setup will be a fully redundant router and redundant switching and each server. So hopefully the redundant router + switch setup can survive for 3 year, without a single maintenance needed.

    This project concept is like doing Mars exploration, once it is deployed there is no turning back.
    Alan Woo, alan [@] ne.com.sg
    = NewMedia Express Pte Ltd (AS38001)
    = IP Transit, Colocation & Dedicated Servers in Singapore | Hong Kong | Tokyo | Seoul | Jakarta |
    = Singapore Speedtest speedtest.sg

  2. #2
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    It seems like you'd be making yourself a target for abusers. What has any spam junkie got to lose by paying cheap on the daily, as long as they can get away with it?

    It's unclear to me ... the machine breaks, user abandons it, then what? I mean if you're not supporting hardware, are you just planning to leave it that way or...what? Pull it and fix it yourselves?

    I don't know if there's a market for this or not. I mean, I personally wouldn't want to go to the trouble of a full build and config that I paid for daily and had no reassurance of quality. About the only thing I would imagine it could be used for are people who want to QA one thing, one time. Good luck though!

    JE

  3. #3
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    If the server is breakdown, no repair will be done on the server.
    there will be no one maintaining this system for the next 3 year.
    So hopefully the redundant router + switch setup can survive for 3 year
    This project concept is like doing Mars exploration, once it is deployed there is no turning back.
    So you want to offer pay-by-day 100% unmanaged dedicated servers? There's dozens of competitors for this type of business, and OVH would be your biggest since they basically provide zero support other than hardware support, and they're already the cheapest on the market (I'm just using them as an example). If your hardware fails there will be no replacements, so the client is just out of luck?

    This just isn't how it is. I wish you best of luck, but you'll probably regret trying to offer a service like this since there's already many companies providing dedicated server and other IaaS services that are already cheap and provide full hardawre replacements and basic support.

  4. #4
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    As the name "no support" means, there will be no technical support provide for whatsoever means, this is one step further than "unmanaged server" or "self managed server" as there is no support for network or server hardware issue.
    There will be no server hardware, upgrade, downgrade, as all hardware config is preset and fixed. If the server is breakdown, no repair will be done on the server.
    This project is to be deployed and fully tested by a contractor and after that there will be no one maintaining this system for the next 3 year.
    It really depends on the pricing since this is targeted on the low end market ( I suppose). Do bear in mind that you have much larger competitors which offer "unmanaged" service instead of "no support" service, thus your service should be much lower than them. I believe your pricing needs to be really affordable since those competitors already have attractive pricing.

    I personally would not be interested in "no support" service for production usage or anything serious as it's really risky and I foresee a catastrophe when anything breaks. However, I wouldn't mind using it for non-production usage such as testing purposes since the server is billed daily.
    The Creative Destruction.

  5. #5
    Exactly! You are opening a market for spammers. People will signup for the server, use it for 1-2 days to spam and then leave it. Most of the spamming will be done for ****** and other blackhat SEO tools and ofcourse DDoS to other providers just for the sake of revenge by skids. So I'd suggest that you drop this idea, it will only lead to problems.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for all the valuable feedback.

    1. Yes, spam/abuser is the number 1 concern, will need to workout a solution to prevent this.
    - Maybe by collecting a deposit upfront will help to deter abuser.

    2. Data center outage, network outage, hardware breakdown is a common issue that most user is facing, proper configuration on software failover is the way to go, instead of building a single expensive and reliable system, multiple less expensive system with failover capabilities may make more sense.

    3. Here is a summarised of key complaint/pain point of dedicated server user I found from WHT.
    - Bad support from XXX provider.
    - Hardware problem, take days to resolve, keep replacing parts.
    - Network problem, routing issue from XXX provider.
    - Delay in provide hardware either in new setup or replacement.
    - Data center outage due to human mistake, natural disaster, lack of maintenance or proper design etc.
    - Of course, the most important is the right "Pricing".

    To solve the above pain point, one of the solutions is to throw in a lot more resources, increase the number of tech support headcount to reduce time delay to support customer, better training to improve the quality of tech support, better redundancy in data center infrastructure, all this will only lead to higher cost to the end user. The end product will be a "Premium dedicated server service" that come with a higher price tag.

    I am looking at a difference angle to solve the pain point while not increasing the end user costing.The no support dedicated server will cost a lot less, so instead of deploying one server at 1 single data center, now user can afford to deploy 2 or more server in difference data center using difference network, and configure failover to achieve higher uptime than having a single server.

    So having only a single server in 1 data center, with 4 hour hardware replacement, will cause you a couple of hour downtime, compare to having 2 server in 2 difference data center that you can failover immediately with zero downtime.

    I agree not many user know how to setup server with failover/backup capabilities, it will take a while for this technology to mature.
    Alan Woo, alan [@] ne.com.sg
    = NewMedia Express Pte Ltd (AS38001)
    = IP Transit, Colocation & Dedicated Servers in Singapore | Hong Kong | Tokyo | Seoul | Jakarta |
    = Singapore Speedtest speedtest.sg

  7. #7
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    Maybe by collecting a deposit upfront will help to deter abuser.
    Since it's billed daily, I figured clients have to prepay for a month and credits are deducted daily? However, clients do not like to be locked into a contract or prepaid credits.
    Maybe you could allow non-abusive clients to withdraw the credits while abusive clients are suspended without refunds? But again, transaction fees..

    To deter abuse, I suggest conducting manual screening of every orders and rejecting orders from high risk countries/regions.

    I am looking at a difference angle to solve the pain point while not increasing the end user costing.The no support dedicated server will cost a lot less
    This is a really interesting business model and I'm really interested in knowing the pricing of the servers.

    If the server is breakdown, no repair will be done on the server.
    I would like to know, what will happen to these servers when they breakdown? Will new clients be "automatically" set up on a broken server/network?

    automated null route will be configure to null ip when there is attack.
    Will the server be automatically restored when the attack stop?

    I understand that "no support" dedicated aims to reduce staffing as much as possible. But, it's inevitable to have a couple of staffs handling the service.
    Last edited by Promex; 11-09-2014 at 06:37 AM.
    The Creative Destruction.

  8. #8
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    as everybody said this is the best opportunity for spammers, high loaders, hackers, attackers, malware hosts and ...personally never prefer to get a server which has been used by everyone everyday and everywhere for everything!

  9. #9
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    I'm still not understanding how you plan to not fix anything. Does that mean the server's done for?

  10. #10
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    I would like to know, what will happen to these servers when they breakdown? Will new clients be "automatically" set up on a broken server/network?

    Will the server be automatically restored when the attack stop?
    1. Those server that broke down will be marked as dead and will just remain in the rack till the end of the project. (Estimate 3 year timeframe). New client will only be automatically setup on good server.

    2. Automatic detect network flood/attack to the server and null route the ip for a threshold (eg. 30 minute or 1 hour), and auto remove after that. Within 1 hour after the remove of null route ip, if the server is facing the attack again, it will null route for longer period (eg. 4 hour), then auto remove after 4 hour. This kind of policy can be establish easily without human intervention.
    Alan Woo, alan [@] ne.com.sg
    = NewMedia Express Pte Ltd (AS38001)
    = IP Transit, Colocation & Dedicated Servers in Singapore | Hong Kong | Tokyo | Seoul | Jakarta |
    = Singapore Speedtest speedtest.sg

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonchun View Post
    I'm still not understanding how you plan to not fix anything. Does that mean the server's done for?
    Server hardware is manufacture and design targeted to work for 24/7 for at least 3 year, hence the manufacturer warranty normally is 3 year.

    Chances are these server breakdown within first 3 year period is low. At least base on my personal experience running hosting for more than 10 years. I don't see that many server broke down. Unless there is a big batch of manufacture defect, that is an exception.

    The plan to not fix anything broke down is to reduce human error and reduce cost to fix the server.

    What is the cost to fix a broken server ? how many hour needed to diagnose a broken server to bring it back to operational state ?

    The idea, is to use a software to failover to a backup server and resume operation immediately, when the production server broke down. This help customer reduce lengthy downtime, there is no more waiting the service provider to repair your server.
    Alan Woo, alan [@] ne.com.sg
    = NewMedia Express Pte Ltd (AS38001)
    = IP Transit, Colocation & Dedicated Servers in Singapore | Hong Kong | Tokyo | Seoul | Jakarta |
    = Singapore Speedtest speedtest.sg

  12. #12
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    Question:

    1. For server hardware, if I agreed to not to send in a single server for RMA/repair/replace other than dead on arrival, will the server vendor/manufacturer willing to lower the server hardware price for me ?
    Once you sold me the hardware, once deployed and working, I will not disturb you for the next 3 year.

    2. For colocation provider, if I agreed to a 3 year contract, with no technical support needed, no onsite visit needed, only to make sure all the server is power on 24x7, will I get a better pricing ?

    3. For Internet Service Provider, if I sign a 3 year contract, agreed to I won't send in a single support ticket to your NOC, will not make any complaint of bad route, as long as your network is generally up and working, will I get a better pricing ?

    Alan
    Alan Woo, alan [@] ne.com.sg
    = NewMedia Express Pte Ltd (AS38001)
    = IP Transit, Colocation & Dedicated Servers in Singapore | Hong Kong | Tokyo | Seoul | Jakarta |
    = Singapore Speedtest speedtest.sg

  13. #13
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    While this sounds to me like a very interesting concept to try and do, just really seems like you are opening yourself more to possible problems and issues then it's even worth the time and hassle to do it. I mean you will have to worry about what people will be doing on the servers and then just leave like that. What about security risks? Have you thought about that? Sorry but to me just doesn't sound worth it.
    Hey Mikey likes it!

  14. #14
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    Since you ask for feedback.. here it is.

    You have to fix network issues. I don't see anyway around that. Customers are not going to understand or appreciate a wonky network due to router/switch bugs or misconfiguration.

    At any scale you will have some initial equipment failures. They may show up in a day, week or month. So if you have 10 servers you would just leave them and not replace the failed hard drive so it sits not generating revenue for the next 35 months? Really? Why?

    Low prices drive high support. A good portion of that is abuse but it is often the user not knowing how to manage & monitor their systems properly.

    If you said network and power support but no OS support I would understand it. Even if you said you would lengthen the hardware replacement time to 24 or 48 hours it would make more sense to me.

    I don't agree with the other poster that it is like OVH. OVH manages their network and while their support may not be great they do offer some level of support.

    It seems like a bad idea.
    CloudNexus Technology Services
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanwoo View Post
    Once you sold me the hardware, once deployed and working, I will not disturb you for the next 3 year.
    Not really, as hardware vendors just pass on the hardware warranty from the producers of the hardware, the saving may only be related to handling of the RMA and shipping costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanwoo View Post
    2. For colocation provider, if I agreed to a 3 year contract, with no technical support needed, no onsite visit needed, only to make sure all the server is power on 24x7, will I get a better pricing ?
    No, its likely they want to charge you more as there is no income for remote hands and support, additional cross connects and power.
    Problem with your business model not to repair broken hardware is that you pay for space&power that is not used, unless you can agree on a payment by usage scenario however most USA datacenters charge a flatfee for capacity.

    One other problem i see: what happens if a switch or switchport fails?

    Quote Originally Posted by alanwoo View Post
    3. For Internet Service Provider, if I sign a 3 year contract, agreed to I won't send in a single support ticket to your NOC, will not make any complaint of bad route, as long as your network is generally up and working, will I get a better pricing ?
    Yes, you can go for the lower cost ones and on a 3 year agreement you get a better price. No support will not give you discounts however, the long term agreement will.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanwoo View Post
    I am planning to offer no support dedicated server and wonder if there is a market for it, or someone is already doing this ?
    We actually plan something like this (very similar idea) where servers are paid per hour and payments a prepaid on wire transfer basis only to prevent abuse and chargebacks.
    Swiftway.net Your Business deserves our Quality - Experts on Hand since 2005. Europe & US locations, we operate our own network AS35017 Support response time <15 minutes 24/7
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  16. #16
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    You have to fix network issues. I don't see anyway around that. Customers are not going to understand or appreciate a wonky network due to router/switch bugs or misconfiguration.
    Yes, good point, option 1: is to outsource the network management to the provider, but it will likely increase cost, option 2: deploy 2 set of router/switch from difference brand, maybe 1 cisco, 1 juniper, running in Active/standby mode, that can quickly failover. The router/switch is pre-configure, test and commissioned by a contractor, and no change of configuration for the next 3 year, there will be no misconfiguration, the worrying part is unknown bugs in router/switch, I hardly see any switch fail, yes router, I have seen, if this happen, then no choice have to bring in a contractor to fix it.

    At any scale you will have some initial equipment failures. They may show up in a day, week or month. So if you have 10 servers you would just leave them and not replace the failed hard drive so it sits not generating revenue for the next 35 months? Really? Why?
    Yes, I am based on the concept that we have calculated the failures rate which is acceptable within 36 month, and the cost to replace is higher than just dump it. If we are looking at only 10 servers, yes, if one of the HDD failed, and we left with 9 server, and 10% capacity loss, but if we looking at a larger number say 200 server, divided into 5 rack, randomly over the period of 1 - 36 month, there is some server failed, assume every month we have 1 server breakdown, at the end of 36 month, we loss 36 server out of 200. There is quite a bit of statistic to be calculate, but it is managable.

    If you said network and power support but no OS support I would understand it. Even if you said you would lengthen the hardware replacement time to 24 or 48 hours it would make more sense to me.

    I don't agree with the other poster that it is like OVH. OVH manages their network and while their support may not be great they do offer some level of support.
    Yes, This model will be difference to OVH, the concept will be based on "disposable infrastructure", anything broke-down/fail, just dump it, the cost we spend to send in an engineer to diagnose, repair, re-instate, is more costly than just dump it.
    Alan Woo, alan [@] ne.com.sg
    = NewMedia Express Pte Ltd (AS38001)
    = IP Transit, Colocation & Dedicated Servers in Singapore | Hong Kong | Tokyo | Seoul | Jakarta |
    = Singapore Speedtest speedtest.sg

  17. #17
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    Not really, as hardware vendors just pass on the hardware warranty from the producers of the hardware, the saving may only be related to handling of the RMA and shipping costs.
    Hardware vendor won't, maybe I have to negotiate directly with the hardware manufacturer then.

    Problem with your business model not to repair broken hardware is that you pay for space&power that is not used]
    Yes, need to calculate the percentage of the under utilisation of the space & power vs the failure rate.
    It is also depends on the cost of space & power, if the space & power cost is on the low end side, then it will not present a issue, but if the space & power is in Tokyo, then is difference story.

    One other problem i see: what happens if a switch or switchport fails?
    All server have 2 x 1Gbit NIC, connect to 2 switch running Teaming/Bonding, so 1 switch or port failed, it will still run. Again this have to calculate the risk ratio of both switch failed within a 3 year timeframe.
    Alan Woo, alan [@] ne.com.sg
    = NewMedia Express Pte Ltd (AS38001)
    = IP Transit, Colocation & Dedicated Servers in Singapore | Hong Kong | Tokyo | Seoul | Jakarta |
    = Singapore Speedtest speedtest.sg

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