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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsj5j View Post
    Indeed, but if such division is to be implemented (and I'm all for it!), some lines must be drawn. The implementation can be worked out: managed can mean provider must provide software updates, setup, or a list of other items.

    These problems occur out of lack of standardization of advertising terms. WHT is in the position to define some of them to reduce confusion for everyone involved.
    I'm afraid asking for standardization of advertising would be a massive task.

    Take for example a horrible gift I received for Christmas a few years ago.

    "As Seen on TV" "Electric De-Icer"

    Here's a link to it:

    http://www.keanmiles.com/Electric-Wi...d-Scraper.html

    They advertise in "seconds" , however, while testing it on a 20 degree day with a light frost, it took 48 seconds just to melt one small hockey puck size under the element. Needless to say, it went in the garbage lol.

    They didn't lie, it does work in "seconds" but its more along the lines of deceptive.

    If things like that can be advertised legally, there is no hope in coming up with a consensus within a single industry.

    Not downing the idea as I think it wouldn't be horrible, but just being a realist about the chances of such a thing happening.
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  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnownHost-Jonathan View Post
    I think something like this would be a good idea, however it's implementation would be near impossible.

    For example, you say "24x7 Phone Support" could define a "managed" host. Now I realize that's just something you threw out there, but I believe we are a well-respected fully managed host and we don't offer phone support, so where would we fall?

    This is just an example, but every aspect that WHT could consider as a definition of "managed" for example could be argued.
    You're right, how about instead of implementing strict guidelines, enforce strict punishments instead? If a host claims to be fully managed and they get enough reports against them from reputable members of the community stating tickets going unanswered and services going offline for extended periods then ban that host from advertising altogether.

    If that idea wouldn't work, how about a community driven method? Add a rating system to WHT for hosts and then have different offer sections based on ratings (i.e. copper/silver/gold or new/established/trusted or something along those lines). Of course this system could be abused but this is where the strict punishments come in (fake reviews? no advertising. paid reviews? no advertising. etc...) and having requirements from the voters (X votes + X days/months registered before you can vote).
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  3. #128
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    Honestly, I think MannDude's approach to this was the best I've seen. Don't try to police the offerings - instead, make enough information available to clients so they can make the decision themself.

    That being DailyServerDeals, of course. The Find a Plan option, where you get a list of options you can toggle. Have something like this, just with more criteria listed. Only trust registered businesses? *toggle* Don't want to deal with providers younger than two years? *toggle*

    Let the consumer make the definitions. They'll either care or they won't, and the ones that do will take the time to use filters to get what they're comfortable with. That should be the point anyways - protect the consumer, not the companies. It's our job to protect ourselves by staying relevant and in demand.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsj5j View Post
    It might seem like the opposite, but in a truly free market with low barriers to entry (which shared/VPS hosting pretty much is), consumer's demand and willingness to pay really determines the market.

    Short of price fixing, which is illegal, other providers will naturally respond with lower prices while still remaining profitable. Economics 101.
    (This is simplified, but ignoring a few exceptions, accurately models the current hosting market.)
    I agree that customers are largely in the drivers seat in the hosting market right now, especially in the shared hosting section of the hosting market. The shared hosting market is operating like a commodity market. But web hosts could regain some control over price if they can find ways to differentiate their services from the rest of the crowd.

    There is a massive surplus of hosts to choose from that all appear to offer nearly the same thing. For example, lets say a potential customer is looking for a Linux/cPanel host with PHP and MySQL to host a WordPress site. There are many thousands of potential hosts to choose from, and nearly all of them claim to have the "best support" and "best reliability". Most of the hosts have nice looking websites, but nearly all of them say the same thing (and often use the same templates). To a potential customer, nearly every shared hosting company is the same based on the data the customer has available. When that happens, the potential customer will try to sort by price and then choose the cheapest.

    The only way to prevent the customer from choosing solely based on price is to make a business seem different in some meaningful way. Every host in this forum that thinks the world is over and WHT is somehow doomed needs to immediately read the book Different: Escaping the Competitive Herd by Youngme Moon. It should be required reading for every web host before being allowed to post on WHT.

    Web hosts cannot successfully compete by looking like other hosts and saying exactly the same thing as other hosts. Every host proudly claiming "best support" and "best reliability" is fighting a tough battle, since every host claims those things and those things can be hard for a potential customer to quantify. Claims like "we take care of our customers" are just as pointless, because every business tries to do that. If you stood up in a crowded room and said "I wear a hat in the winter", how many people in that crowded room would possibly care? Doing the same thing everybody else does won't get you noticed.
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  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsj5j View Post
    I'm contributing to the larger discussion at hand, especially the host's idea of "if you can't beat them, join them" for the industry moving forward. I'm not really keen on discussing them specifically to his host. Since neither you nor I have used his services, I think it's highly inappropriate to pass judgement.
    I was going to respond to the rest of what you said, but I think I can summarize most of my thoughts here...in general and regarding the host in question.

    "if you can't beat them, join them"...I understand what it means....not sure if they do.

    I agree with your broken education statement and how the generation promotes laziness. Quality should never be ripped apart just to "fit in". A lot of the reputable hosts on here don't do it. Just like in music and other industries...there are people that will refuse to work or contribute to garbage.

    Passing judgement....we both know the rules of WHT, and how we can't bad mouth a host we never used. But.....it's not you or I calling it out. It's the dis-satisfied customers calling it out.....every few weeks....every month...over and over again. This is how you end a community or bring the level of intelligence/common sense/organization down.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZKuJoe View Post
    You're right, how about instead of implementing strict guidelines, enforce strict punishments instead? If a host claims to be fully managed and they get enough reports against them from reputable members of the community stating tickets going unanswered and services going offline for extended periods then ban that host from advertising altogether.
    Whose going to count how much bad reports "X" host has and how much good reports "Y" host has?

    This is also subjected to abuse as competitors may write bad reports of someone else...

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    It is my third language, correct. But there you go making assumptions again... If you'd like to know something about me, simply ask me directly. Don't dance around the issue with assumptions and implications.
    It wasn't an assumption but an inference, a conclusion reached based on evidence. Evidently, I was right...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    If you're not aware that mass genocide is "bad", I can only assume you have limited exposure to world history.
    Sigh, do I have to SPELL it out? Just because Hitler was a "bad person", doesn't mean his views on, say, artwork are invalid. Evaluate it objectively, not based on the bias that he's a mass murderer.

    P.S. Hilter got rejected from art school. If only he was accepted...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    Well, dammit, looks like that backfired on you a bit. Since you're trying to attack me for stating my opinion.. what happened to "evaluate on its own merits"?
    Ok I give up. I'm not attacking you for stating your opinion, I'm attacking your opinion that what I said was a personal attack. It's not. I'm addressing your opinion, not you as a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    (It's is short for 'it is' btw, not possessive. Perhaps correct your own grammatical fallicies before you comment on others' grasp of English?).
    You actually spotted a genuine mistake, but you corrected it incorrectly.
    It's = It is.
    Its = Possessive form of it, as intended.

    I typoed an apostrophe at the end. But some mistakes are simply grammar, others can be very insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    If the best you have is resorting to Wikipedia rather than being able to explain a concept yourself, then it's (see, not possessive) time to stop derailing the thread with your idiocy (that was an insult) and get back on topic.
    I shall ignore this personal attack, though I can infer that you have not read the article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    But I'm sure you're going to want the last word, so go for it. Get it out of your system now so we can move on.
    Indeed. As previously mentioned, the current culture breeds laziness and encourages stupidity to be left uncorrected. I'd rather not contribute to that.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielP View Post
    I'm afraid asking for standardization of advertising would be a massive task.

    Take for example a horrible gift I received for Christmas a few years ago.

    "As Seen on TV" "Electric De-Icer"

    Here's a link to it:

    http://www.keanmiles.com/Electric-Wi...d-Scraper.html

    They advertise in "seconds" , however, while testing it on a 20 degree day with a light frost, it took 48 seconds just to melt one small hockey puck size under the element. Needless to say, it went in the garbage lol.

    They didn't lie, it does work in "seconds" but its more along the lines of deceptive.

    If things like that can be advertised legally, there is no hope in coming up with a consensus within a single industry.

    Not downing the idea as I think it wouldn't be horrible, but just being a realist about the chances of such a thing happening.
    I agree, it's not an easy task, but then again I'm not trying to slap on a solution that one can come up with in minutes. This should be considered and evolved upon.

    Let me propose an example:

    managed is currently very poorly defined. Everyone gives it some varying definition.
    Perhaps a "Managed Offers" section can use this as a definition:
    - Provides support for all hardware and software issues (software may be limited, with a minimum of web and database services).
    - Provides software and system updates proactively.
    - Provides server security support.
    - Provides one-time setting up and migration.
    - Offers 24/7 support.

    I'm sure the above can be tweaked, and not everyone needs to agree to it - but we don't need to have everyone agree. WHT isn't a democracy, and they can specify only hosts that meet those requirements advertise in certain forums.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEQ3 - Sam View Post
    Whose going to count how much bad reports "X" host has and how much good reports "Y" host has?

    This is also subjected to abuse as competitors may write bad reports of someone else...
    Anything is possible with time and dedication. No matter what the solution is I can guarantee it's not going to be easy, if it is then I wouldn't trust it.
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  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnownHost-Jonathan View Post
    I think something like this would be a good idea, however it's implementation would be near impossible.

    For example, you say "24x7 Phone Support" could define a "managed" host. Now I realize that's just something you threw out there, but I believe we are a well-respected fully managed host and we don't offer phone support, so where would we fall?

    This is just an example, but every aspect that WHT could consider as a definition of "managed" for example could be argued.

    Guidelines are not that hard to implement.

    Again, using my previous career as an example, some of the resources available to artists are only offered to those that improved on their skills. Trust me when I say it does show the difference between those that are committed to those that don't care.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEQ3 - Sam View Post
    Whose going to count how much bad reports "X" host has and how much good reports "Y" host has?

    This is also subjected to abuse as competitors may write bad reports of someone else...
    That's the catch in moderation. Forum mods always catch hell for their decisions, but nobody stops to acknowledge that not everyone can be pleased, and oft times they simply have to tread the most neutral ground they can find.

    Instead of restricting information (not allowing A or B), I feel the best course would be making the most information available. On a forum, that could be something as simple as "This list of pertinent information needs to be at the top of the posts". Let the consumer make their choice based on the information presented to them, and suddenly the issue of providers trying to retain their hold on a market by making it difficult for others to advertise is removed.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    I agree with your broken education statement and how the generation promotes laziness. Quality should never be ripped apart just to "fit in". A lot of the reputable hosts on here don't do it. Just like in music and other industries...there are people that will refuse to work or contribute to garbage.
    I agree with everything you say... BUT I think there is a need to recognize that hosting is a business after all that feeds people's livelihoods. In it is inevitable that if crap sells, then crap will be sold. It's not the industry nor WHT's responsibility to prevent crap from being sold - as long as that crap is not false advertising or fraud - but rather make it easier to help users find the innovative gems - and why innovation is worth the extra cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    Passing judgement....we both know the rules of WHT, and how we can't bad mouth a host we never used. But.....it's not you or I calling it out. It's the dis-satisfied customers calling it out.....every few weeks....every month...over and over again. This is how you end a community or bring the level of intelligence/common sense/organization down.
    Yes. But short of someone asking specifically about the host in a public "is this host okay" thread, I'd prefer to avoid that can of worms altogether. I believe poor hosts (not implying anyone is poor here, general statement) will suffer with horrible word-of-mouth advertising, and it's not necessary for me to contribute to that.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    That's the catch in moderation. Forum mods always catch hell for their decisions, but nobody stops to acknowledge that not everyone can be pleased, and oft times they simply have to tread the most neutral ground they can find.

    Instead of restricting information (not allowing A or B), I feel the best course would be making the most information available. On a forum, that could be something as simple as "This list of pertinent information needs to be at the top of the posts". Let the consumer make their choice based on the information presented to them, and suddenly the issue of providers trying to retain their hold on a market by making it difficult for others to advertise is removed.
    That's a good approach, but I think looking at the horrible state of the Offers forum, sieving out quality can be next-to-impossible.

    There should be some filters to make it easier for those who want high-quality hosts to get it, and those who want the best-deal-in-town to find it easily as well. Both extremes are placed in the same forum, and it makes it a pain for everyone involved.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    Let the consumer make the definitions. They'll either care or they won't, and the ones that do will take the time to use filters to get what they're comfortable with. That should be the point anyways - protect the consumer, not the companies. It's our job to protect ourselves by staying relevant and in demand.
    Something to think about.

    Nowadays many end users are tech savvy, and I believe that they won't get lured only with low pricing, instead they will want to know how a provider will deliver the service within the price range offered so that they would have an expectation on what level of service they will receive, and I believe that they will be a good customer.

    There are also a lot end users with limited tech knowledge that might be lured by flamboyant low pricing marketing gimmick, whom in the end felt unsatisfied because they expected too much, and start whining in forums and blame the providers.

    Yes, there are also many end users who are not tech savvy, and willing to pay more for a managed service, so the market is still there.

    My point is, educate the end users, offer them something you can really deliver, gain end user's trust and protect yourself by protecting the end users.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsj5j View Post
    That's a good approach, but I think looking at the horrible state of the Offers forum, sieving out quality can be next-to-impossible.

    There should be some filters to make it easier for those who want high-quality hosts to get it, and those who want the best-deal-in-town to find it easily as well. Both extremes are placed in the same forum, and it makes it a pain for everyone involved.
    Again, I'm not positing that certain Offers posts be removed/disallowed due to quality or concern. In fact, I just argued for the exact opposite of that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    Instead of restricting information (not allowing A or B), I feel the best course would be making the most information available. On a forum, that could be something as simple as "This list of pertinent information needs to be at the top of the posts". Let the consumer make their choice based on the information presented to them, and suddenly the issue of providers trying to retain their hold on a market by making it difficult for others to advertise is removed.
    You can see this post for a more in-depth example of what I'm getting at. Making more information available, not arbitrary restriction.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    Again, I'm not positing that certain Offers posts be removed/disallowed due to quality or concern. In fact, I just argued for the exact opposite of that:



    You can see this post for a more in-depth example of what I'm getting at. Making more information available, not arbitrary restriction.
    Indeed, I'm not implying you are making such a suggestion!

    I'm just elaborating that one way to make information "easily available" is to have a filter-style offers forum, to easily filter out anything you aren't interested in, and requiring providers to provide more information so filtering is made easier.

    For example, providers can add support ticket response SLAs, and you can filter offers forum saying, "I want tickets to be responded to within X minutes" or "I want a 99.9% uptime SLA". Just an idea.

  17. #142
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    I don't think WHT should try to police what hosts can and can't post, who are kiddie hosts etc. However, I do like @CloudVZ's idea of segregating the offers forums based on membership level. In this way it's possible to add value to WHT memberships without "getting rid" of non corporate users.

    Most of the issues discussed in this thread should be self-healing. For a long time WHT banned "unlimited" providers, but by doing so they discouraged most of the larger providers from having a presence here. If/when some of these larger providers come back, that should go a long way in helping to deversify the discussions on WHT.

    I'll agree, there are far fewer "debates" (or, depending on how you look at it, 100 pages of blistering rants and raves from a handful of users ) on here than there used to be. Those are definitely missed.
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  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudVZ View Post
    Could just have an advertising section(s) where only corporate accounts can post in. That right there would most likely separate a lot of good/bad hosts.

    That would make corporate accounts worth it. Right now you have the privilege of posting every THREE days in a cesspool.
    That is a brilliant idea. That is the main reason why we do not currently have a corporate account, though we have had a corporate account in the past. It is a cesspool and being able to post every three days means nothing when your post is knocked off the front page in a matter of hours. There no advantage. I would definitely maintain a corporate account if they could weed out all the fly by nights.
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  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsj5j View Post
    I agree, it's not an easy task, but then again I'm not trying to slap on a solution that one can come up with in minutes. This should be considered and evolved upon.

    Let me propose an example:

    managed is currently very poorly defined. Everyone gives it some varying definition.
    Perhaps a "Managed Offers" section can use this as a definition:
    - Provides support for all hardware and software issues (software may be limited, with a minimum of web and database services).
    - Provides software and system updates proactively.
    - Provides server security support.
    - Provides one-time setting up and migration.
    - Offers 24/7 support.

    I'm sure the above can be tweaked, and not everyone needs to agree to it - but we don't need to have everyone agree. WHT isn't a democracy, and they can specify only hosts that meet those requirements advertise in certain forums.
    Just as I was saying to Johnathon. I can even translate this to music and see the correlation;


    - Provides support for all hardware and software issues (software may be limited, with a minimum of web and database services).

    band/artist providing their own equipment


    - Provides software and system updates proactively.

    band/artist understands the schedule performance times


    - Provides server security support.

    band/artist has management or self-managed

    - Provides one-time setting up and migration.

    band/artist has knowledge of live shows


    - Offers 24/7 support.

    band/artist available to perform anywhere last minute, has relevant up to date travel documents


    Trust me as fun as music was, there are guidelines that artists had to follow to be a part of certain communities. Those that didn't....well most of them gave up, got pushed to the side, or weren't that good to begin with. Again...separation of quality.




    Quote Originally Posted by tsj5j View Post
    Yes. But short of someone asking specifically about the host in a public "is this host okay" thread, I'd prefer to avoid that can of worms altogether. I believe poor hosts (not implying anyone is poor here, general statement) will suffer with horrible word-of-mouth advertising, and it's not necessary for me to contribute to that.
    Even if no longer speak of it, it will still exist...and not saying anything is why it exists. I'm just trying to be nice, but it only goes so far.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aldryic C'boas View Post
    Again, I'm not positing that certain Offers posts be removed/disallowed due to quality or concern. In fact, I just argued for the exact opposite of that:

    You can see this post for a more in-depth example of what I'm getting at. Making more information available, not arbitrary restriction.
    It's still a useless approach. I could post an ad stating solar-plated servers that run on water and get all sorts of business. Then 2 weeks later all sorts of complaints are posted on WHT. Since there's no guidelines, I could keep doing this for months, making all sorts of free money. Close shop. Wait until that load of money runs out. Open a new host with specially trained rabbits for support. Make some more $$$ on this concept. Get some more complaints. Repeat. There's nothing to stop this from happening.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEQ3 - Sam View Post
    Whose going to count how much bad reports "X" host has and how much good reports "Y" host has?

    This is also subjected to abuse as competitors may write bad reports of someone else...

    Reports can be verified by the mods (report the domain), host, and domain ownership.

    If a host has x amount of bad reviews within x amount of time, they should be suspended from advertising.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    It's still a useless approach. I could post an ad stating solar-plated servers that run on water and get all sorts of business. Then 2 weeks later all sorts of complaints are posted on WHT. Since there's no guidelines, I could keep doing this for months, making all sorts of free money. Close shop. Wait until that load of money runs out. Open a new host with specially trained rabbits for support. Make some more $$$ on this concept. Get some more complaints. Repeat. There's nothing to stop this from happening.
    I highly doubt that bizarre of an example would work.. but you have a point there. But you're going to have this happen either way, regardless of setup. The more you try to 'protect' the consumers, the more you hurt yourself by restricting legitimate providers and essentially tyrannising the market. Besides, we've already established that there are plenty of veteran "providers" that pull these schemes

    One thing that your situation doesn't cover though... anyone searching specificly for hosts open for more than X years won't be subject to the scheme. And most folks that are willing to try new companies are going to see "Amazing claims from someone I've never heard of? I smell scam".

    Okay, okay, sure there will always be the ones gullible enough to fall for it. At that point you just have to let Darwinism take over... let them get burned once, and they won't touch the fire again.

    Unless, of course, the entire purpose of moderation and criteria would be to protect the current providers That's a whole different monster - one that needs to be quickly euthanized.

  22. #147
    I feel the reactions in this thread are more negative than the reality. Various memes:

    * help me compete against people with less money than me by excluding them from the forum

    * help me compete against people with more money than me by not allowing them to post 'ridiculous' offers which I cannot match

    * stop people from asking questions I already know the answer to because it's a waste of my time

    * stop people from asking for help with questions because I feel if they can't figure it out on their own they don't belong in this industry

    * I really long for the days where my customers had to pay through the nose for services that were difficult and expensive to provide

    * all this software and technology that makes it cheaper and easier to sell web hosting is killing the industry

    Really? Why do these seem to be the only themes people are discussing? The people making these argunents should be ashamed of themselves.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    I feel the reactions in this thread are more negative than the reality. Various memes:

    * help me compete against people with less money than me by excluding them from the forum

    * help me compete against people with more money than me by not allowing them to post 'ridiculous' offers which I cannot match

    * stop people from asking questions I already know the answer to because it's a waste of my time

    * stop people from asking for help with questions because I feel if they can't figure it out on their own they don't belong in this industry

    * I really long for the days where my customers had to pay through the nose for services that were difficult and expensive to provide

    * all this software and technology that makes it cheaper and easier to sell web hosting is killing the industry

    Really? Why do these seem to be the only themes people are discussing? The people making these argunents should be ashamed of themselves.
    There is no upvote button big enough.

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    I like Aldryic idea. The more info the better. Let the customer decide. Restricting people ability to advertise based on profile tags (paid tags) is not justice. I've seen lots of decent providers with no paid tag, even more decent and legit than the ones with the Corporate tag.

    Taken from vpsboard.com , they put something like-> Verified Provider tag into the company profile.

    We can tweak it a little more maybe putting something like years in service (verified with evidence).

    2- Adding the amount of good reviews vs the amount of bad reviews in a visible tag for the profile, something like ebay. Why not following the practice of eBay?

    3- You can also specify type of business, is it Inc? LLC? DBA? Not specified? Some people are peaky for that, so maybe some customers may enjoy that.

    4- Specify where the business is registered. Is it USA , UK? India? China? etc... For example, I tend to take that into consideration. If the business is from India, then I know that since I'm from the US, if they commit any fraud to me, then I already knew that there is a high change of not being able to take them to court or something like that.

    ---
    Aside from the above ideas. WHT is a business, but remember that primarily is a public forum. Is not a professional , paid and verified listing service.
    --

  25. #150
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kepler 62f
    Posts
    16,699
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Injection View Post
    I like the idea of having a Corporate Advertising sub section this way when you are looking for servers you can know you are atleast looking at a legit business not a 12 yrs old scam site.
    I'd REALLY like to see this! A reserved section for ONLY corporate members. One for Premium. One for neither. There's far too much noise, too many kids, in that section. I'd like to know which ones are serious (invest something for their business), and which ones are not (invest squat).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuguhost View Post
    the fee to upgrade to corporate member isnt that big
    Uhhh.. what?

    The fee is $100/monthly. That's not a good budget expenditure for some. WHT is nice and all, but sometimes the ROI is very poor. I hate to speak ill of the place, but we're talking business not friendships. For some hosts, it's a perfect venue. For others, not so much.

    It's nothing more than an ad/sponsorship level.

    ------

    There's many ways to clean up some parts of this site. I see several really good ideas being posted here. Too many "hosts" are not businesses, not run by adults, run from shady locations, etc.

    WHT needs to also protect consumers, not just itself. WHT skates the fine line with both host + consumer relationships -- it need BOTH type of members/visitors! -- and could always lose that if it sides with kids/amateurs instead of the buyers. Part of what makes a market.

    Industry is just the businesses.
    Market is the businesses AND buyers.
    So WHT has to decide what type of site it wants to be. Which demo?
    || Need a good host?
    || See my Suggested Hosts List || Editorial: EIG/Site5/Arvixe/Hostgator Alternatives
    ||

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