Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 72
  1. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    33
    No. Not when it's grasping at straws.
    You aren't understanding the concept of zealous representation. As an attorney, my primary objective is not fairness to you or the industry, my concern is the client. If that means going after a party that is vicariously liable, then so be it... as long as the wronged party has a viable legal claim and chooses to pursue same. The client is the one that ultimately chooses who to sue.

    Go after the person that did you wrong, not just whoever you think has a piggy bank big enough to pay.
    You're quick to presume that the main hosting company is always innocent.

    This is a problem with a legal system, and it starts with lawyers -- not courts.
    You haven't suggested why lawyers are the source of the problem. You only seem to be irked by the fact that lawyers do exactly what lawyers are intended to do... to zealously represent clients.

    They never do.
    Perhaps there is no case-law directly on point to establish liability or a duty. But guess what - I don't need any cases on point in order to apply an already existing legal theory to this set of facts and hold a defendant liable. It's called a case of first impression.

    To me, there's is a problem how you're approaching everything. You're thinking like a lawyer ONLY -- sue, sue, sue, who's to blame, etc -- without understanding a single aspect of the industry. I think you need to go digest about 50-100 ToS/AUP first. See what's protective, and see what's farce.
    I am trained to think like a lawyer, so that's my core thought process. Understand that I do not need to be a web-hosting expert in order to completely ignore your Terms of Service and Acceptable Use Policies and find liability based on tort theories or a local consumer statute. Claiming that I do not understand a single aspect of the web-hosting industry is simply ad hominem, so I won't respond to that nonsense.

    Look at how that's wrecked the medical industry, with doctors actually now afraid to do things, for fear of getting hit with malpractice. That's bad!
    That's your opinion, and surely is not fact. Could that exposure to malpractice also promote safer health care? Maybe.

    It's not at you, not at all. But it's something that exists because lawyers are not ACTUALLY hearing and addressing the problems.
    I'm here. How do you propose we address the problem? Who am I going after? Will my actions make any difference for my client? Who are my clients?

    They're too myopic, and fail to see the bigger picture.
    You aren't giving me the bigger picture. My client is my concern, not the industry.

    You're talking about a liability against a secondary company, because you think to kiddie host is "too hard" to pursue. Or worse, not "worth it" (not enough money for high-priced legal fees). That doesn't do diddly-crap for all the little people that will continue to get screwed as a result.
    You do not see how holding a secondary company liable may promote industry self-regulation?

    Some aspects of what's going on falls under U.S. law. Most kiddies hosts are foreigners using USA servers.
    What's your point? If the owners of the "kiddie" web-hosting company are in China, what exactly do you expect an American lawyer to do?

    Company? Right. Most of these are NOT companies. Just kiddies pretending to be companies. Therein lies the issue.
    An unregistered partnership is still a company, just like a sole proprietorship is a business.

    You can pretend and hide online still. When you have a blog about cats, that's fine. When you're taking money from other individuals and businesses, and then disappear -- and often THEN it's discovered that the contact info was all bogus -- there's a problem.
    And your solution to this? Wait for the government to enforce federal consumer protection statutes... against foreign entities and persons? Vicarious liability makes more sense.

    You're not ready for taking cases in this industry.
    Sounds like bitter talk. You haven't really done a solid job of showing that.

    Sorry to be blunt, to seem mean, rude, whatever.
    No, just sounds bitter.

    Too many of us have been screwed by large and small hosts alike. And we're bitter about it.
    Well that's a good start. I presume you're a web-hosting consumer, so instead of attacking lawyers, how about you work with us and see where our objectives and goals align?

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by JordanF View Post
    The concept of a lawsuit is to serve justice upon the person or persons who have wronged you, but it quickly becomes a game of leeching the most money from SOMEONE: hence why people ignore the clueless reseller and go for the big fish provider. The legal system is corrupt in that sense, the purpose of a lawsuit becomes distort.
    Unfortunately, when you get your leg ripped off in an accident, you can't always force the defendant to give you your leg back. In that case, sometimes money helps heal wounds. Just like in this case, if your data is lost and it isn't recoverable... perhaps money is close to a good alternative - especially since your data is lost. Money is a universally recognized remedy for problems, and also a form of penalizing a wrong-doer. Now as far as leeching is concerned, I guess it depends on what side of the court you're on.

    Heck, if I had to pay... I would also be upset. But that's life, that's order, and that's the law.

    <snip>
    Last edited by SoftWareRevue; 01-07-2014 at 02:53 PM. Reason: you folks are welcome to PM me

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kepler 62f
    Posts
    16,703
    You strike me as freshly out of law school, and in some sort of "ambulance chaser" mode.

    Furthermore, you come into this thread wanting to know about the legal issues this industry faces ... but now it's about a client only? Something stinks here, and I don't know what the ulterior motive is. So I'm not participating in this thread anymore.

    Good luck to you, whatever your end-game is.
    || Need a good host?
    || See my Suggested Hosts List || Editorial: EIG/Site5/Arvixe/Hostgator Alternatives
    ||

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
    You strike me as freshly out of law school, and in some sort of "ambulance chaser" mode.

    Furthermore, you come into this thread wanting to know about the legal issues this industry faces ... but now it's about a client only? Something stinks here, and I don't know what the ulterior motive is. So I'm not participating in this thread anymore.

    Good luck to you, whatever your end-game is.
    Wrong. You're assuming that a client can only be a consumer. From the very beginning you have shown to be entirely unprofessional, and your latest ad hominem attacks only buttresses that notion. I am not interested in entertaining your comments any further.

    If I were you, I also wouldn't participate in this thread. The other board users, as well as those that have PMed me, have great character.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kepler 62f
    Posts
    16,703
    There's NOTHING unprofessional about what I've written here. Being professional doesn't mean being nicey-wicey all the time, smiling, and always agreeing (or passively disagreeing) with others. In fact, being a professional often means taking on difficult issues head on. Sadly, you've not been able to keep up with the conversation that you yourself have started. It rambles about, without focus.

    You've said some VERY questionable things in this thread, to the point where I even question your claimed legal expertise. It reads like an interaction with an over-enthusiastic law school student that doesn't quite understand things.

    I've seen this exact type on conversation before online in years past.

    I long to see a serious legal discussion of the issues in this field. I'm disappointed yet again, as this is not it. That is the reason I'm leaving the conversation.

    Again, good luck with whatever it is you're doing here.
    Last edited by kpmedia; 01-06-2014 at 09:07 AM.
    || Need a good host?
    || See my Suggested Hosts List || Editorial: EIG/Site5/Arvixe/Hostgator Alternatives
    ||

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    127.0.0.1
    Posts
    5,732
    Quote Originally Posted by legalese View Post
    Wrong. You're assuming that a client can only be a consumer. From the very beginning you have shown to be entirely unprofessional, and your latest ad hominem attacks only buttresses that notion. I am not interested in entertaining your comments any further.

    If I were you, I also wouldn't participate in this thread. The other board users, as well as those that have PMed me, have great character.
    Well for starters I wouldn't start on one of our respected member of the community, well if you want help I wouldn't if I was you. And I fully agree with what KPMedia has said which is why I've liked his posts. I didn't want to reply since I don't know the legal sides as much as I want to as I'm not a lawyer. However I know the do's and don't do in our industry.

    If you are professional you'd see it from both sides and listen to the community.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Cybertron
    Posts
    10,484
    I vote for kpmedia to head the legal department. Finds an issue and fights it to the end.

    I'm amused when people run once a wall is presented in a situation. Would one run out the courtroom if presented with a difficult scenario? Oh wait, they do.....recess anyone.








    Quote Originally Posted by wswd View Post
    Holy cow...I can't believe everyone here missed the obvious. Legal issues? "Unlimited" hosting!! A class action lawsuit against some of the big brands, EIG, Godaddy, etc., and their "unlimited" plans would do wonders in this industry, just as the "unlimited" class action lawsuits did to the cell. phone industry when Verizon and AT&T were sued years ago.

    You have to keep in mind that these folks have their own huge legal teams, many might even define the limits in some hidden TOS somewhere, but capping "unlimited" users is exactly what got the cell. phone companies in trouble. "Unlimited" hosts do it all day long, because they are small enough and there is absolutely no regulation in this industry.

    As you said, legal teams. One would need a few teams, a force of nature, and Matlock to take such actions. Then to make really make an example of the case; web hosts, telephone companies, cable companies, and any service using "unlimited" as a marketing term would have to be taken to court too.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Cybertron
    Posts
    10,484
    Quote Originally Posted by legalese View Post
    I am trained to think like a lawyer, so that's my core thought process.
    In my previous career, such statements breakdown into;

    "I do stuff in the industry" Stuff????

    and

    "I am the industry" Actualization of self-confidence. Case closed!!


    I enjoy cartoons, and I found this to be the best conversation that proves the point of someone saying they think like a lawyer and I AM a lawyer;



    Terry McGinnis (new batman) and Bruce Wayne (original batman) discussing recent attempts to make Bruce Wayne look crazy.
    Terry McGinnis: Why were you so sure those voices weren't coming from you?
    Bruce Wayne: Well, first, I know I'm not psychotic.
    Terry McGinnis: ...I hope your other reason's more convincing.
    Bruce Wayne: And second, the voice kept calling me 'Bruce'. In my mind, that's not what I call myself.



    Time to reconvene in the batcave.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,393
    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    Then to make really make an example of the case; web hosts, telephone companies, cable companies, and any service using "unlimited" as a marketing term would have to be taken to court too.
    Broadband and Mobile carriers have already been taken to court for this (and had their behinds handed to them). While they can still use the term "unlimited" they can no longer hide limits in their service agreements, instead these limits need to be printed/spoken directly on any advertisement.
    WHMEasyBackup.com - Take Control Of Your Backups!
    Complete Backup Solution For WHM Reseller Accounts

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Cybertron
    Posts
    10,484
    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    Broadband and Mobile carriers have already been taken to court for this (and had their behinds handed to them). While they can still use the term "unlimited" they can no longer hide limits in their service agreements, instead these limits need to be printed/spoken directly on any advertisement.
    Ah. The mobile companies here have been crafty with the usage of unlimited. Only for voice or text/sms messages....nothing data related.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Harrisburg, PA
    Posts
    2,074
    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    As you said, legal teams. One would need a few teams, a force of nature, and Matlock to take such actions. Then to make really make an example of the case; web hosts, telephone companies, cable companies, and any service using "unlimited" as a marketing term would have to be taken to court too.
    Not really. Say a customer orders a premium shared hosting package at $20 / month with "unlimited" disk space. He prepays three years. That's $720. He's fully compliant with the TOS / AUP and is nowhere near the host's established inode limit. Yet after uploading a few dozen 1 TB files (for the sake of example, let's say this customer is operating a website for his video surveillance business, and he's providing 24-hour compressed multi-channel video streams to his customers for archival purposes; all are linked from a password-protected part of his website for customer access) in month three, he's informed that his service is being suspended for excessive disk usage.

    Now he wants a refund of his remaining $660, but the host points to their "no refunds" paragraph in their terms.

    The customer takes the host to small claims court for $660 plus another $150 in filing fees. The host now has to fly out there and/or hire a local lawyer to represent them in court. As is the case with most small claims judges, the judge is more interested in the spirit of the law and "right versus wrong" than a strict interpretation of the letter of the law.

    As soon as that customer mentions that there's no such thing as an unlimited disk, it's game over for the host. The judge probably won't be too interested in hearing the host explain "well it's true that we can't technically deliver on what we offered, and that the inodes limit technically means 'unlimited' does have a limit, but this is how everybody else does it".

    If you want an area to pursue, look into the nebulous or shady claims of web hosts. Their logic is always "we'll advertise unlimited, knowing full well that this is impossible to provide, then bury some contradictory limitations in the terms".
    Fresh Roasted Hosting :: High-performance Harrisburg web hosting since 2012!
    "The only thing better than the world's best customer service is never needing them in the first place."
    Shared :: VPS :: Reseller :: Dedicated :: Co-Location :: SSL Certificates

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Harrisburg, PA
    Posts
    2,074
    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    Ah. The mobile companies here have been crafty with the usage of unlimited. Only for voice or text/sms messages....nothing data related.
    After being sued and/or pursued by multiple states' Attorneys General, yes.
    Fresh Roasted Hosting :: High-performance Harrisburg web hosting since 2012!
    "The only thing better than the world's best customer service is never needing them in the first place."
    Shared :: VPS :: Reseller :: Dedicated :: Co-Location :: SSL Certificates

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,393
    @FRH_Lisa, I hear you, I definitely think actions could be taken regarding the false advertising that is so prevalent in the hosting industry, that is, if it were ever actually pursued. Unfortunately, unlike the mobile industry, hosting is rather niche and doesn't affect the greatest majority of the population.

    The legalized theft that is also far too prevalent in regards to hosting (so much so that more and more gateways are refusing hosting providers all together) is even more alarming. Specifically, the example scenario that you used, with the 3yr prepayment and providers "God" like ability to cancel for essentially any reason without refund.
    WHMEasyBackup.com - Take Control Of Your Backups!
    Complete Backup Solution For WHM Reseller Accounts

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,184
    You guys are forgetting (or don't seem to know) that lawsuits in the phone e industry have already happened, and were won on behalf of the consumer. Wonder why Verizon and AT&T no longer offer unlimited plans? They were sued up one side and down the other and were forced to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages. Sprint is the only major carrier left with an unlimited plan, and the only reason is because they haven't capped anybody yet, and haven't been sued. Verizon and AT&T were selling unlimited plans and then throttling and/or capping the usage. Sound familiar?

    Whomever called legalese out ad being fresh out of law school is 100% correct. Lawyers are the scum of the Earth and he is no exception. I'm sure he's going around to some major industry forums trying to drum up business for himself.

    Why this thread hasn't been locked or moved to the advertising forum, I have no idea, since this is nothing more than an ad for his legal services.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Alabama of course
    Posts
    2,247
    Forget webhosting. When is someone going to start a class action against all the fast food companies! I want my Burger to look exactly like the burger in the commercial, not some deflated bun with 1 pickle and a slice of lettuce that stands 1/3rd the height of the one in the commercial.
    KnownHost Managed Services Specialists
    Fully Managed WebSite Hosting
    Offering WordPress, Shared, Reseller, VPS, KVM, WordPress, Dedicated servers and more!
    Contact us: sales@knownhost.com or by phone 1-866-332-9894

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,393
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielP View Post
    Forget webhosting. When is someone going to start a class action against all the fast food companies! I want my Burger to look exactly like the burger in the commercial, not some deflated bun with 1 pickle and a slice of lettuce that stands 1/3rd the height of the one in the commercial.
    Manufacturers of TV dinners would not be happy if such a suit was put forward. LOL
    WHMEasyBackup.com - Take Control Of Your Backups!
    Complete Backup Solution For WHM Reseller Accounts

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Alabama of course
    Posts
    2,247
    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    Manufacturers of TV dinners would not be happy if such a suit was put forward. LOL

    Ooo, I forgot about those as well... Those hotpockets that in the commercials seem to ooze out filling and goodness except when you cook one at home their dry and have maybe 1/4 of them filled.
    KnownHost Managed Services Specialists
    Fully Managed WebSite Hosting
    Offering WordPress, Shared, Reseller, VPS, KVM, WordPress, Dedicated servers and more!
    Contact us: sales@knownhost.com or by phone 1-866-332-9894

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    33
    Lawyers are the scum of the Earth and he is no exception.
    And that's why I'm going to continue ignoring kpmedia and wswd. Although professional discourse doesn't have to be artificially pleasant, I am not going to carry on a discussion with someone that is attacking my profession and/or my professional... and starts such nonsense from the very beginning.


    If you want an area to pursue, look into the nebulous or shady claims of web hosts. Their logic is always "we'll advertise unlimited, knowing full well that this is impossible to provide, then bury some contradictory limitations in the terms".
    Well written FRH Lisa and thanks for the suggestion.

    Has anyone here actually pursued any litigation related to the web-hosting industry? Any success stories?

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,184
    Quote Originally Posted by legalese View Post
    And that's why I'm going to continue ignoring kpmedia and wswd. Although professional discourse doesn't have to be artificially pleasant, I am not going to carry on a discussion with someone that is attacking my profession and/or my professional... and starts such nonsense from the very beginning.
    I have my law degree from UCLA, 2002. Passed the California Bar, and never practiced a day in my life, because I knew I would make far more money in business than I would ever make as a lawyer. Was nice to have something to fall back on though if anything happened.

    I saw guys like you in law school all over the place. You were a dime a dozen. Didn't feel like making 50 G's working for somebody else and wanted to take on the world, trying to prove yourself. You go to all these different group meetings and forums and try to whore your services out.

    You don't care about the web hosting industry in the slightest. You don't care about the troubles we face, you don't care about the services we provide, you simply want to find a large group of people like us, and attempt to make a quick buck and build your case portfolio. I know the game. You don't have to come here and try to BS people.

    Unfortunately, all you're doing is advertising your services, and that's disallowed by the forum rules, which I'm sure you would know if you actually read them and cared about joining our community.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    33
    never practiced a day in my life
    Sometimes no response is response enough.

    My sincere gratitude for those that actually provided interesting suggestions.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Cybertron
    Posts
    10,484
    Quote Originally Posted by legalese View Post
    Any success stories?
    Are you a lawyer or a screen writer looking for material?

    You asked for issues....you were presented with many...many that members have also take personal...but you would rather something else?


    Take Care

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    Are you a lawyer or a screen writer looking for material?

    You asked for issues....you were presented with many...many that members have also take personal...but you would rather something else?

    Take Care
    I sense the hostility, and I understand that many are trying to jump on the bandwagon here now that the thread has turned sour.

    FRH Lisa briefly discussed a hypothetical case that did not have a positive result for a web-hosting business, so I asked if anyone had any actual success and felt pleased with the outcome of legal intervention. Perhaps some can learn civility from FRH Lisa.

  23. #48
    OP, I suggest communicating with David Snead. Among the lawyers (especially those in the U.S.) I've read and/or communicated, Snead seems well-versed on legal issues involving the web-hosting industry. Disregard that, of course, if you're since in touch with him.

    From reading and "studying" the legal issues that intrigue me for some reason, I think they can be summarized at least to two: contributory or secondary liability, and (breach of) contract disputes.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    33
    Thanks for the suggestion Dave Z! I was actually perusing legal topics on this forum, and I came across his information yesterday. I might shoot him an email and say hello.

    Now when you mention contributory or secondary liability, what is the area of law or the type of dispute that is the basis for this? Usually when you mention contributory or secondary liability it usually relates to tort law and negligence.

    So for example... failing to take adequate security measures in a web-hosting business may create vicarious liability, secondary liability, and contributory liability, even though another party was more "directly" responsible for the damage. So instead of "failing to take adequate security measures," which I am just using as a place-holder, is there something more specific that you are referring to?
    Last edited by SoftWareRevue; 01-07-2014 at 04:53 PM.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Kalamazoo
    Posts
    33,412
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Z View Post
    OP, I suggest communicating with David Snead. Among the lawyers (especially those in the U.S.) I've read and/or communicated, Snead seems well-versed on legal issues involving the web-hosting industry. Disregard that, of course, if you're since in touch with him...
    Let's not forget that Mr. Snead and I both sit on the i2C board. If the OP is interested in the legal challenges of hosting providers, he should join our efforts.

    We have an Internet Infrastructure Coalition forum right here on WHT to make it that much easier to get involved.
    There is no best host. There is only the host that's best for you.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Avoiding Legal Issues in Web Hosting
    By HostingConRSS in forum From the HostingCon Blog
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-13-2013, 03:10 PM
  2. Legal issues related to starting a web hosting company.
    By trickyy in forum Running a Web Hosting Business
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-10-2011, 01:07 AM
  3. Legal Issues & Web Hosting Problems
    By JSteele in forum Web Hosting
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-25-2006, 02:40 PM
  4. Legal Protection for the Hosting Industry – Are You Protected?
    By hostlegal in forum Other Offers & Requests
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-21-2006, 06:29 PM
  5. Web Hosting Laws & Legal Issues
    By EzHost in forum Running a Web Hosting Business
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 11-07-2003, 06:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •