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  1. #1
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    What exactly does full server management mean?

    I guess perhaps it is defined different by everyone offering server management, but let me ask about a specific incident..

    I recently contacted the guy who I have contracted to do full management for my server with the following service ticket request:

    I am having a problem with the way URLs are being interpreted for my sites.

    URL CANONICALIZATION TEST
    Test your site for potential URL canonicalization issues. Canonicalization describes how a site can use slightly different URLs for the same page - for example: if http://www.example.com and http://example.com displays to the same page but do not resolve to the same URL. If this happens, search engines may be unsure as to which URL is the correct one to index. Learn more about canonicalization issues.
    http://faunaclassifeds.com and http://www.faunaclassifeds.com should resolve to the same URL, but currently do not.
    And the response I got was:
    This is not a server problem, its a mod_rewrite/script issue.
    Hmm, so what does that mean? Tough luck for me? Not his problem? I'm on my own with this one?

    Is that a typical response I could expect for other server managament outfits?

  2. #2
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    I guess that depends on the server management you've bought.

    If it's $10 a month then I suspect you're very much on your own.

    If it's $300 a month and includes coverage of your applications then you ought to be supported.

    Do you know if your support covers applications?

    From the response it looks like a "sorry but that's not covered under your support".

    David Man
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  3. #3
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    This will depend heavily on what is covered under your contract. Server management, at it's core will get mod_rewrite to work at the Apache level. Whether the rewrite is correct or not is not a server issue, it is an application issue for which you will need either a webmaster or developer, or Google.

  4. #4
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    Basically, just try to tell them,
    I would like my site to redirect from http://example.com to http://www.example.com

    And see what they respond.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xerixe View Post
    Basically, just try to tell them,
    I would like my site to redirect from http://example.com to http://www.example.com

    And see what they respond.

    Their response will be something like:

    Good luck. Let us know how you get on.
    as they've already implied it's not something they deal with.

    David Man
    www.openitc.co.uk - We create, we host, we connect - Fully Managed VPS & Dedicated Hosting
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  6. #6
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    I wouldn't expect a server management company to fix a mod_rewrite/.htaccess issue. You're paying them to take care of your server, not develop your website.

    Who are you contacting when you need an image changed or a new page added? This is the job of a website developer, not a server management company.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_EZPZ View Post
    I wouldn't expect a server management company to fix a mod_rewrite/.htaccess issue. You're paying them to take care of your server, not develop your website.

    Who are you contacting when you need an image changed or a new page added? This is the job of a website developer, not a server management company.
    +1

    If you need this done at a server level, then absolutely it rests within the realm of server management. But if this is for a single site requiring an update to .htaccess, that's why developers exist. No fair putting us out of business by goading server admins to do our job

    Edit:

    Code:
    RewriteEngine On
    RewriteCond %{HTTP_HOST} !^www\.
    RewriteRule ^(.*)$ http://www.%{HTTP_HOST}/$1 [R=301,L]
    Drop that into your htaccess file, and go have a beer. Optimizing URLs for SEO purposes definitely is not what a server admin does!
    Last edited by the_pm; 10-22-2013 at 03:38 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_EZPZ View Post
    I wouldn't expect a server management company to fix a mod_rewrite/.htaccess issue. You're paying them to take care of your server, not develop your website.

    Who are you contacting when you need an image changed or a new page added? This is the job of a website developer, not a server management company.
    It's not clear what level of support they're contracted into.

    It could include application level support.

    David Man
    www.openitc.co.uk - We create, we host, we connect - Fully Managed VPS & Dedicated Hosting
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  9. #9
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    Well, it's obviously not just the one site on the server with that URL problem, it's every site. So there is nothing at the server level that controls making "http://www.ThisSite.com" functionally equivalent to "http://ThisSite.com"?

    In most sites it really doesn't make a difference, but in sites that are using message board software such as vBulletin, which uses cookies to keep track of page changes, it does make a difference.

    Anyway, I hear what you guys are saying, and I guess I just thought that a company advertising management services that includes "resolving issues related to the operation of your server" and offers "Third-party server software installation assistance" would take care of such a minor problem as this for me. So apparently I need to be able to figure out every problem that shows up whether it is related to the server or one of the sites before even posting a service ticket. I guess what I want is someone who will keep my sites runing on my server concerning any problem outside of out and out coding issues with the actual applications on the sites.

    As the kids say these days.... "My bad...."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
    Well, it's obviously not just the one site on the server with that URL problem, it's every site. So there is nothing at the server level that controls making "http://www.ThisSite.com" functionally equivalent to "http://ThisSite.com"?

    In most sites it really doesn't make a difference, but in sites that are using message board software such as vBulletin, which uses cookies to keep track of page changes, it does make a difference.

    Anyway, I hear what you guys are saying, and I guess I just thought that a company advertising management services that includes "resolving issues related to the operation of your server" and offers "Third-party server software installation assistance" would take care of such a minor problem as this for me. So apparently I need to be able to figure out every problem that shows up whether it is related to the server or one of the sites before even posting a service ticket. I guess what I want is someone who will keep my sites runing on my server concerning any problem outside of out and out coding issues with the actual applications on the sites.

    As the kids say these days.... "My bad...."
    There's nothing wrong with your expectations. As you say, it's a minor issue. I think where the disconnect is, is what your support package provides and what it doesn't.

    If your hosts are busy I guess they'll want to provide the service that's appropriate for your support level. If they had the time they might just do it for you although that can often lead to problems where the customer now assumes that application level issues are also dealt with as part of their support.

    The support you're looking for will cost more as it covers more but gives you the freedom to email in an issue and expect it to be dealt with.

    Anyway, hope it gets sorted out for you

    David Man
    www.openitc.co.uk - We create, we host, we connect - Fully Managed VPS & Dedicated Hosting
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  11. #11
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    So this issue I am asking about is not something that can be corrected in a configuration file at the server level? I DO want the entire server to respond to URLs as I mentioned in the original post in this thread.

    Heck, I'm not asking the guy to debug application coding. I know that is not his responsibility. But things that affect the way the server responds to page requests based on the URL structure, heck, just seemed to me that IS a server level issue, not something determined by the application coding.

    Now I'm wonding what exactly ISN'T covered. Maybe if I have trouble with anything handled by Cpanel (such as email, or mini-aps it installs in site folders) will get me the "not my job, man" response....

    Yeah, I've looked over his website, but everything is so generic that it could mean whatever someone reading it would want to THINK it means.

    Anyway, I'm paying $150 per month for this management. So it's kind of middle of the road from some of the quotes I see in this thread. Am I just expecting too much for the money?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
    So this issue I am asking about is not something that can be corrected in a configuration file at the server level? I DO want the entire server to respond to URLs as I mentioned in the original post in this thread.

    Heck, I'm not asking the guy to debug application coding. I know that is not his responsibility. But things that affect the way the server responds to page requests based on the URL structure, heck, just seemed to me that IS a server level issue, not something determined by the application coding.

    Now I'm wonding what exactly ISN'T covered. Maybe if I have trouble with anything handled by Cpanel (such as email, or mini-aps it installs in site folders) will get me the "not my job, man" response....

    Yeah, I've looked over his website, but everything is so generic that it could mean whatever someone reading it would want to THINK it means.

    Anyway, I'm paying $150 per month for this management. So it's kind of middle of the road from some of the quotes I see in this thread. Am I just expecting too much for the money?
    You've not asked for much at all.

    I'm not taking a side here, just noting that it's all down to what's offered with the support you're paying for and for what you're paying I'm surprised they'd not just do it for you and let you know that despite it being out of what's supported, they've just dealt with it.

    As you've mentioned, the problem you're facing is more about where the distinction is drawn.

    I can see your point about the issue being more a server based issue but it actually belongs in the realm of software but again, it's all down to the definition of your support contract.

    From what's transpired, my guess would be that what you mentioned regarding CPanel and mini-apps wouldn't be covered.

    David Man
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  13. #13
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    Hmm, well, been reading up on .htaccess files and I'm learning a lot.

    From Apache's web site (http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/howto/htaccess.html):

    When (not) to use .htaccess files

    In general, you should only use .htaccess files when you don't have access to the main server configuration file. There is, for example, a common misconception that user authentication should always be done in .htaccess files, and, in more recent years, another misconception that mod_rewrite directives must go in .htaccess files. This is simply not the case. You can put user authentication configurations in the main server configuration, and this is, in fact, the preferred way to do things. Likewise, mod_rewrite directives work better, in many respects, in the main server configuration.

    .htaccess files should be used in a case where the content providers need to make configuration changes to the server on a per-directory basis, but do not have root access on the server system. In the event that the server administrator is not willing to make frequent configuration changes, it might be desirable to permit individual users to make these changes in .htaccess files for themselves. This is particularly true, for example, in cases where ISPs are hosting multiple user sites on a single machine, and want their users to be able to alter their configuration.

    However, in general, use of .htaccess files should be avoided when possible. Any configuration that you would consider putting in a .htaccess file, can just as effectively be made in a <Directory> section in your main server configuration file.

  14. #14
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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
    Hmm, well, been reading up on .htaccess files and I'm learning a lot.

    From Apache's web site (http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/howto/htaccess.html):



    In practice .htaccess file is a great way to test if a rule would work well without breaking your site theme.
    first step is to create the redirect with .htaccess, and run a sanity check.
    once you are convinced the settings are suitable for your site, then you may commit them to your httpd.conf for your server.

    do you have root access to your server?
    in case you have root , this might not be a part of the support on some hosts. ( i.e: testing the site theme for compatibility with rewrite rules ).

    I also suggest on moving on to apache 2.4

    http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/howto/htaccess.html

    In case you are running a control panel on your server, turning off mod_rewrite , is not advisable.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
    Hmm, well, been reading up on .htaccess files and I'm learning a lot.

    From Apache's web site (http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/howto/htaccess.html):




    For performance reasons you shouldn't have .htaccess files. Sometimes this is unavoidable though so if you do have them enabled for any reason, you should feel free to use them without worry.

    David Man
    www.openitc.co.uk - We create, we host, we connect - Fully Managed VPS & Dedicated Hosting
    www.direvps.com - When nothing but price matters! - Brutal marketing for a brutal market!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
    Well, it's obviously not just the one site on the server with that URL problem, it's every site. So there is nothing at the server level that controls making "http://www.ThisSite.com" functionally equivalent to "http://ThisSite.com"?

    In most sites it really doesn't make a difference, but in sites that are using message board software such as vBulletin, which uses cookies to keep track of page changes, it does make a difference.

    Anyway, I hear what you guys are saying, and I guess I just thought that a company advertising management services that includes "resolving issues related to the operation of your server" and offers "Third-party server software installation assistance" would take care of such a minor problem as this for me. So apparently I need to be able to figure out every problem that shows up whether it is related to the server or one of the sites before even posting a service ticket. I guess what I want is someone who will keep my sites runing on my server concerning any problem outside of out and out coding issues with the actual applications on the sites.

    As the kids say these days.... "My bad...."
    I don't think your request is unreasonable. I would say this should be covered given it's a very simple change and also depending on your setup it may only be achievable in the virtual hosts configuration.

    I would disagree that rewrite rules in general should be covered such as what if there was hundreds of them and you were having an issue with just one, it certainly wouldn't be the sysadmins job to troubleshoot and find the offending one.

    There is always going to be an overlap between what people define as a sysadmin task and a developer task and it's going to be handled differently between each customer and company.
    Server Management - AdminGeekZ.com
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  17. #17
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    Well it's now a moot point concerning this particular server manager.

    Since you don't want to answer me and instead feel the need to keep posting on webhostingtalking about this I am just canceling our arrangement.
    This is how I am going to operate and I could care less what you feel needs to be done. I do not cater to customers ideas of how things to work.
    I guess my thoughts that just not replying to the guy and arguing with him and instead giving us time to both simmer down didn't work as planned.

    And I guess I sort of saw that writing on the wall when I got an earlier response to him concerning whether the fix I wanted could be done AT the server level in a config file:

    Sure, but its not a good idea to blindly apply something that server wide. I refuse to do it.
    That was regardless of the fact that I WANTED this fix, and it needed to be, server wide.

    Oh well, it is what it is. I'm sure it was just a matter of time before we HAD to part company. We just weren't able to see eye to eye about anything, apparently.

    Anyone got a server management outfit they can recommend? And for the record, I BET that the one I have been dealing with will be one that is recommended to me. I originally picked him because he was very highly rated here. Maybe the guy was just going through a bad period in his personal life at this time, but obviously I did not get the same impression about him that others did.

  18. #18
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    Maybe the guy was just going through a bad period in his personal life at this time, but obviously I did not get the same impression about him that others did.
    Nope. Not at all.
    I just don't work well with customers who want to backseat admin.

    Anyway: Rackaid is a good option.
    Steven Ciaburri | Industry's Best Server Management - Rack911.com
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  19. #19
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    They should make a cup of coffee for me too

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Nope. Not at all.
    I just don't work well with customers who want to backseat admin.

    Anyway: Rackaid is a good option.
    Ah well, too bad. I had hoped that was the case so it would have explained your attitude a bit better.

    "Backseat admin"? LOL! Whatever.....

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
    Ah well, too bad. I had hoped that was the case so it would have explained your attitude a bit better.

    "Backseat admin"? LOL! Whatever.....
    Honestly, .htaccess mod_rewrite is not something that should be included with server management, no matter how much you pay a month. That job is for either a web developer or yourself.

    As for doing a blanket setting across your server for all sites for something like this is just asking for trouble down the road and making diagnosing a nightmare. This kind of stuff should only be applied to the particular sites, that's it.

    If your past dealings with another server management company according to your post history has taught you anything, I would work on resolving this matter with your current provider.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by benj114 View Post
    Honestly, .htaccess mod_rewrite is not something that should be included with server management, no matter how much you pay a month. That job is for either a web developer or yourself.

    As for doing a blanket setting across your server for all sites for something like this is just asking for trouble down the road and making diagnosing a nightmare. This kind of stuff should only be applied to the particular sites, that's it.
    If anything, that has proven to be debatable. But the final results of this is what it is. Instead of spending 2 minutes to help me, my ex-provider chose to lose a customer. I'll survive. I'm sure he will too. It just didn't work out between us.

    Quote Originally Posted by benj114 View Post
    If your past dealings with another server management company according to your post history has taught you anything, I would work on resolving this matter with your current provider.
    Yeah, definitely a mine field out there. And I've certainly stumbled onto my share of those mines. I guess I really should learn this management stuff, but honestly, I would rather spend my retirement doing other things.

    As for the "current provider", that is past history. I was trying to allow things to simmer down between us, but that apparently rubbed his personality the wrong way too. So he made his choice, and I can live with it. He did do an excellent job for me fixing the problems with my old server and migrating my sites to the new one, but his hard line attitude about management just doesn't fit my needs.

    I've got a number of possibilities lined up to manage my server. Just need to nudge my toes around them a little bit before seeing if they are just another mine laying in wait for me.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by benj114 View Post
    Honestly, .htaccess mod_rewrite is not something that should be included with server management, no matter how much you pay a month. That job is for either a web developer or yourself.
    Agreed.

    Speaking in relation to a web hosting company that I work for, you can't even begin to imagine the amount of people who request jobs that go above and beyond normal hosting issues. We're talking complex tickets that would take a solid hour or longer to complete - just dedicated to their issue... and yet, they are paying less than $10 a month and get offended when you send them a few links from Google.

    One of the old companies that I worked for made it very clear, and it was a punishable rule too if violated: Never go above and beyond for the customer, because it will turn into an expectation every time. Sure enough, just like clock work, I find myself going out of my way to occasionally help the odd person and then suddenly, they are looking to replace their entire IT department with a shared hosting account and get upset when someone else isn't willing to devote an afternoon to their issue.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
    So this issue I am asking about is not something that can be corrected in a configuration file at the server level? I DO want the entire server to respond to URLs as I mentioned in the original post in this thread.

    Heck, I'm not asking the guy to debug application coding. I know that is not his responsibility. But things that affect the way the server responds to page requests based on the URL structure, heck, just seemed to me that IS a server level issue, not something determined by the application coding.

    Now I'm wonding what exactly ISN'T covered. Maybe if I have trouble with anything handled by Cpanel (such as email, or mini-aps it installs in site folders) will get me the "not my job, man" response....

    Yeah, I've looked over his website, but everything is so generic that it could mean whatever someone reading it would want to THINK it means.

    Anyway, I'm paying $150 per month for this management. So it's kind of middle of the road from some of the quotes I see in this thread. Am I just expecting too much for the money?
    Now that I know how much you are paying, I don't think that a little help on what is clearly a Webmaster Function is outrageous. But that is $150 for the management or is that the total cost for a managed server? Generally, on these kind of issues I take the time to minimally show the client the right place to go or just go ahead and show them the steps to resolve it. If a customer has questions and wants advice I always help as much as possible.

    But there are times when customers say: "We had a practitioner leave our practice, can you edit our website and remove their Bio?" And that is when we tell them we can but that would be billed at a Webmaster Services rate.

    But what you asked we easy peasy. Unless you ask this kind of thing several times a day beyond an initial three month extra slack period I'd just do it for you and tell you what I did and tell you how to edit the .htaccess file next time yourself (also reminding to backup your current file). Assuming you try and solve things yourself first, when they cross the line, and you aren't simply opening massive amounts of tickets for webmaster services, I would value the customer relationship. If $150 is for a managed server (not just the service) then maybe you need to pay for a little webmaster help now and then.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gPowerHost View Post
    Now that I know how much you are paying, I don't think that a little help on what is clearly a Webmaster Function is outrageous. But that is $150 for the management or is that the total cost for a managed server? Generally, on these kind of issues I take the time to minimally show the client the right place to go or just go ahead and show them the steps to resolve it. If a customer has questions and wants advice I always help as much as possible.

    But there are times when customers say: "We had a practitioner leave our practice, can you edit our website and remove their Bio?" And that is when we tell them we can but that would be billed at a Webmaster Services rate.

    But what you asked we easy peasy. Unless you ask this kind of thing several times a day beyond an initial three month extra slack period I'd just do it for you and tell you what I did and tell you how to edit the .htaccess file next time yourself (also reminding to backup your current file). Assuming you try and solve things yourself first, when they cross the line, and you aren't simply opening massive amounts of tickets for webmaster services, I would value the customer relationship. If $150 is for a managed server (not just the service) then maybe you need to pay for a little webmaster help now and then.
    The $150 per month is for ONLY management of the server. I have the server leased through someone else.

    The way I worded the support ticket is I believe indicated in the first post of this thread. I had a problem with how the URLs were being resolved for the sites on my server. Since ALL of the sites were doing this, the presumption was that it was a server level issue. I was told point blank "not my problem". But he did point me to a webpage to explain the problem. Still, I don't think novices should be editing the .htaccess file, as I know from experience that syntax errors can bring your site down.

    I was just asking for help and got slapped for it. So I moved on and now have a new managing company taking care of my server. So no biggie. A year from now I won't even remember the previous manager's name.

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