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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    Question Small Data Center / Startup

    Howdy WHT,

    I'm in the process of a startup, and wanted to get some pointers, information and feedback.

    Currently what I'm looking at purchasing in regards to equipment is;

    - 1x APC 42U Enclosed rack, 2 separate compartments
    - 2x Cisco 10/100Mbps Wired Routers
    - 2x TRENDnet Unmanaged 10/100/1000MBps Gigabit Switches
    - 2x NETGEAR ProSafe VPN Firewall Switch 12.5 Mbps LAN - WAN 1.2 Mbps
    - 2x APC Smart 120V 1000VA UPS
    - 2x CyberPower 300W 500VA UPS

    Now, this will be used for colocation and I wanted to know if the above would be enough to start off (grow up to) 42U. Power outages aren't really an issue, happens once in a while over a few months.

    I have already been looking into bandwidth providers (Level3, Cogent, NTT, etc.) Seems pretty costly for installation of these. So I wonder if anybody in my area would know if there are any local bandwidth providers (Eastlink, Bell, Rogers, etc.) and if their prices would be much different from premium bandwidth providers.

    As for cooling, would that really be needed for 1 cabinet, or would it require some type of cooling (in cabin cooler or external cooler)?

    For the firewalls, wanted to know if that would affect the network/uplink, would it slow it down or are they fine?

    So any pointers, comments or anything of that sort would help. Also wondering if there should be wireless routers in the setup as well.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Have you looked for a datacenter near you that can lease you a cab or even a cage? This is how most "startups" start.

    http://www.datacentermap.com/
    █ Brian Kearney, Stealthy Hosting/Server Stadium Seattle, WA [AS23033] Skype: StealthyHosting
    Custom Dedicated Servers
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  3. #3
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    Unfortunately, there are no datacenters within a reasonable distance. Otherwise I would have leaned towards leasing cabs as I grow.

    Thank you for the suggestion though

  4. #4
    i wish you luck, but i would recommend not using wireless just because most of the time it will slow down servers (not always, but most of the time)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    55

    Small Data Center / Startup

    Wouldn't recommend hosting this way from residential internet. Perhaps it's worth taking the risk of leasing a cabinet in a nearby city and flying there when necessary?

  6. #6
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    Don't you think it would be pretty costly to fly to the dc and then back? Especially when I would have to manage my own hardware. That would just cut down on time, would not give me the ability to do local travel (i.e. traveling at 3AM if there were an issue).

    I had never said I would use residential internet, providers such as Rogers and Bell provide smb/enterprise solutions. I was only curious as to what kind of connections they offer, compared to main providers such as Level(3) or Cogent. Even though I may get connections from local providers (depending on what kind of connection they offer), I will be getting at least 3 connections from main providers.

    --Edit--
    I want to note that I'm only looking for help in regards to opening a dc, and I'm not looking to lease a suite/cage/rack, it is simply not something that would be ideal in my situation.
    Last edited by Peter-G; 09-21-2013 at 11:15 AM.

  7. #7
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    Hi Peter-G,

    If there are no decent data centers near your location, how would you make providers like Level3, NTT, Cogent or any Tier1 or Tier2 ISP to come to any place? No one would open a POP in a place where they'd light up a few cabinets. You'd need to get a Layer2 transport which would cost you a thousands on monthly basis. It is much better to start a with a 1 cabinet in any decent data center. You'd be able to choose between a number of carriers and to use remote hands if you are not around or just want anyone else to do anything onsite.
    HostColor.com Edge Infrastructure - US Dedicated Servers & Europe Dedicated Hostingsince 2000
    In 50 U.S. Edge Data Centers & 80 POPs worldwide
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    Las Vegas
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    To be brutally honest, you don't know what you are doing.

    You need to develop a business plan, with revenue and cost estimates, before proceeding.

    The main components of colo are power, bandwidth, cooling, security, space.

    That you are looking at 120 volt UPS for a data center means that you dont know power.

    If you are worried about the cost of installing bandwidth to your location, you are seriously underfunded.

    Cooling and security were not mentioned

    The cost of a plane ticket to a data center is ***irrelevant*** to your total costs. Anyways, there are always good remote hands in most data centers that can assist. We have equipment in data centers that I have never been close to.

    Start with a cabinet in a real data center, AFTER you complete your business plan.
    www.vidillion.com Kelly Foster Las Vegas, NV 89117 (702) 222 0999

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    chicago
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    1,781
    if there are no datacenters in your area i doubt you will find cheap transport to a datacenter to get connectivity from be prepared to spend a few k a month on just transport.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    129
    (1) Get loan from bank.
    (2) Design your dc capacity.
    (3) look around your transport line possible landing location.
    (4) rent a PoP rack space at near common dc , order IP Transit bandwidth.
    (5) Buy all your devices, racks, power supply and UPS.
    (6) Small DC open

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter-G View Post
    Unfortunately, there are no datacenters within a reasonable distance. Otherwise I would have leaned towards leasing cabs as I grow.

    Thank you for the suggestion though
    Then there is no reasonably priced bandwidth either (typically the case)

  12. #12
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    Rogers and Bell's small business offering's are for small office businesses and will offer nothing close to what a DC has. Even Bell's Fiber is a joke. Might be fine for a single server at HOME for a few sites but that is it. And be prepared to pay Bell $25 a month per Static IP.
    Tyler S.
    TheWareHive.com | Hosting Sites Since 2010

    "Problems Of Today, Meet Solutions Of Tomorrow"
    US East ~ Shared, Dedicated & Fully Managed VPS Solutions

  13. #13
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    Thanks for all those answers.

    @Vidillion
    I had never said I was worried about the cost of installing bandwidth. I only said I was curious about others pricing.

    In regards to the UPS, is it an absolute need to have a larger unit, considering the very low amounts of power outages (if any, there are less than 10 per year, around 1 - 2 hours per outage). If so, what would you recommend for a single cabin - that may have little outages lasting ~ 1-2 hours.

    And I disagree to the cost of a plane ticket. If I have to travel 5 times per week to a DC, that would put me at $5,000 per week, with that amount of money to burn on flights, I would be able to afford multiple bandwidth providers with at least 100mbps from each.

    @TheWareHive
    Figured as much, thanks for that though.

    For connection (remember, this would be a single cabin), would 10mbps be fine to start with? Until there is significant growth that would require 20mbps -> 50mbps -> 100mbps.

    @HostColor
    I already have quotes from Level3 and Cogent on the pricing levels, and how much they charge for speeds and installation. I realize that I had asked for opinion, I just want to know, should I trust the information from you - or the information directly from the providers?...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter-G View Post
    Unfortunately, there are no datacenters within a reasonable distance. Otherwise I would have leaned towards leasing cabs as I grow.

    Thank you for the suggestion though
    A good datacenter with proper remote hands should be perfect for you. There are many start-ups that rely on remote hands NOC techs to do all the work on their systems. This can also give you the peace of mind that your servers are being monitored 24/7 even while you sleep. Talk with your provider and work out any monitoring/remote hands deals before signing any contract.
    █ Brian Kearney, Stealthy Hosting/Server Stadium Seattle, WA [AS23033] Skype: StealthyHosting
    Custom Dedicated Servers
    Low Cost Instant Dedicated Servers

    █ Email: Sales@StealthyHosting.com

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter-G View Post
    Thanks for all those answers.

    @TheWareHive
    Figured as much, thanks for that though.

    For connection (remember, this would be a single cabin), would 10mbps be fine to start with? Until there is significant growth that would require 20mbps -> 50mbps -> 100mbps.
    Would you be happy with 10mbps capped? Downloading updates to your server would take hours when it should take seconds to minutes. Depends on your application but 10mbps could be easily capped during a download of anything.
    █ Brian Kearney, Stealthy Hosting/Server Stadium Seattle, WA [AS23033] Skype: StealthyHosting
    Custom Dedicated Servers
    Low Cost Instant Dedicated Servers

    █ Email: Sales@StealthyHosting.com

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by StealthyHosting View Post
    A good datacenter with proper remote hands should be perfect for you. There are many start-ups that rely on remote hands NOC techs to do all the work on their systems. This can also give you the peace of mind that your servers are being monitored 24/7 even while you sleep. Talk with your provider and work out any monitoring/remote hands deals before signing any contract.
    Will keep that in mind, thanks!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by StealthyHosting View Post
    Would you be happy with 10mbps capped? Downloading updates to your server would take hours when it should take seconds to minutes. Depends on your application but 10mbps could be easily capped during a download of anything.
    True enough, so keeping that in mind as well, I think that 50Mbps would suffice, until there would be need for a faster connection.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter-G View Post
    Unfortunately, there are no datacenters within a reasonable distance. Otherwise I would have leaned towards leasing cabs as I grow.

    Thank you for the suggestion though
    Whereabouts in Ontario are you, and how far do you define as reasonable distance? WHT users may know of options you do not (and/or are not published anywhere).

    For your UPS's, I can tell you from first hand experience that you can expect to get ~2-3 PC's per 1000VA UPS, on the upper end.

    Most of the smaller office UPS's are rated at ~0.6PF, which means for 1000KVA, you're only going to be able to output ~600w, and even then, that's with ~5-10 minutes of battery (which is fine if you have a genset, but won't ride you through much otherwise). You'd be better off getting a few 3-4kva units, with expansion shelves for additional batteries, at which size you can still stuff 'em on a 208/240v circuit with ease (4kva would need a 30A/208v[/240v] feed for example, which you can still do at home/small office without issue).

    Personally I wouldn't touch Trendnet, or Netgear switching/routing gear, both are plagued with reliability issues when actually pushing bits in my experience. Remember that most manufacturer numbers on switch/route gear are unreliable (Cisco included, don't get me wrong).

    Beyond this, when you got pricing for your transits, those numbers were presumably for on-net buildings (default). Which transport providers are in your area, so you can connect to the quoted transit providers on-net's, or do you know?
    Myles Loosley-Millman - admin@prioritycolo.com
    Priority Colo Inc. - Affordable Colocation & Dedicated Servers.
    Two Canadian facilities serving Toronto & Markham, Ontario
    http://www.prioritycolo.com

  19. #19
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    Located in Sudbury. To me, a reasonable area would be within 1 hour driving distance.

    Thanks for the info on UPS and Switches/Routers, will have a look into other ones. Would you be able to recommend any that you think would be ok to start with that would be in operating condition for an extended period of time?

    The quoted numbers I received are for Off-Net, which do seem reasonable compared to local providers in terms of price, speed and reliability.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter-G View Post
    Located in Sudbury. To me, a reasonable area would be within 1 hour driving distance.
    Contact Bell and Rogers directly, you might be able to secure some colo in one of their local hubs. Mind you that access might be a bit more restrictive, but at least it would still be local. Keep in mind that there will be no redundancy though, so if there is network issues you have no backup.

    10Mbps is nowhere near enough...sorry.
    Tyler S.
    TheWareHive.com | Hosting Sites Since 2010

    "Problems Of Today, Meet Solutions Of Tomorrow"
    US East ~ Shared, Dedicated & Fully Managed VPS Solutions

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter-G View Post
    Located in Sudbury. To me, a reasonable area would be within 1 hour driving distance.

    Thanks for the info on UPS and Switches/Routers, will have a look into other ones. Would you be able to recommend any that you think would be ok to start with that would be in operating condition for an extended period of time?

    The quoted numbers I received are for Off-Net, which do seem reasonable compared to local providers in terms of price, speed and reliability.
    Well, nothing 1 hour of Sudbury is going to be any cheaper than Sudbury, that much you probably already knew.

    Let me ask around on the location.

    UPS's aren't designed to operate for a long time really. Most people don't run their HVAC on UPS, etc., thats what generators and ATS's are for. UPS's are only really meant to bridge the gap.

    APC has a cheap 3/4kva lineup, that with third party battery cabinets may do the trick, but that's not a cheap solution, and you may not be able to keep the batteries balanced properly doing this (small UPS's aren't really designed to charge the bigger [more amperage] batteries).

    You can always price out a 20-50kva generator, fuel tank, ATS, and see what makes sense. Home Depot, Costco, etc. have solutions for gensets/ATS's, and while they're residential grade, they're better than nothing.

    OOC, which transits did you get off-net pricing from, and what sort of rates were they offering? They do know where you are, right?

    Anybody can quote you off-net, and ride whatever fiber exists to your area (IE: Level3 quoting, knowing they're gonna spend $3k/mo of $x quote for Bell fiber to your location).
    Myles Loosley-Millman - admin@prioritycolo.com
    Priority Colo Inc. - Affordable Colocation & Dedicated Servers.
    Two Canadian facilities serving Toronto & Markham, Ontario
    http://www.prioritycolo.com

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter-G View Post
    I already have quotes from Level3 and Cogent on the pricing levels, and how much they charge for speeds and installation. I realize that I had asked for opinion, I just want to know, should I trust the information from you - or the information directly from the providers?...
    If you have received any offerings, you'd look at them, not my comments. Can you please tell me what would be the Level3 price to light up an new off-net location if you are getting 100 Mbps. It should be $15 per meg or even higher, shouldn't it?
    HostColor.com Edge Infrastructure - US Dedicated Servers & Europe Dedicated Hostingsince 2000
    In 50 U.S. Edge Data Centers & 80 POPs worldwide
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  23. #23
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    @HostColor
    For connections from Level3, about 4k/mo for 100Mbps, 3.9k/mo for 50Mbps.. so not much of a difference in pricing for those 2, installation is only $100. These are on 3 year terms as well.

    @porcupine
    Yep that is true, Toronto is about 4 hours away (driving), and Montreal about the same, maybe a little bit longer.

    Gotcha on the UPS.

    Been looking at APC products, thanks for the recommendations for that.

    Pricing above as well. For 4k/mo I'd hope that they wouldn't be running Bell Fibre or Eastlink Cable...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter-G View Post
    @HostColor
    For connections from Level3, about 4k/mo for 100Mbps, 3.9k/mo for 50Mbps.. so not much of a difference in pricing for those 2, installation is only $100. These are on 3 year terms as well.
    Thank you Peter-G! I'm sure you know what are doing, but a price of $4,000 for 100 Mbps looks very, very high to me. At that one you could get 1 or 2 cabinets, bandwidth and remote hands even in some of the most expensive data centers.
    Last edited by HostColor; 09-21-2013 at 05:18 PM.
    HostColor.com Edge Infrastructure - US Dedicated Servers & Europe Dedicated Hostingsince 2000
    In 50 U.S. Edge Data Centers & 80 POPs worldwide
    24/7 Support ★★ Support Tickets - LiveChat - Phone

  25. #25
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    Indeed, however it always takes 1 person to make changes right? Could lead to future DC's being built here. I had heard not to long ago, the city was planning on building a large DC.

    Many web hosting providers here charge way to much for services ($30 for 1GB shared hosting? Without many of the features that you would see in the advertising forums here).

    Market here is good for thing's like this, plenty of businesses are renting servers from the US (Singlehop, Softlayer, etc) or even others like iWeb, Peer1, etc. Just due to the fact they cannot afford to colo out of the city, which is mostly due to travel expenses and is very time consuming, time that could be spent doing work.

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