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  1. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVisitors View Post
    In my opinion it still is and I have yet to find a provider who admits to "oversells" and does it well (responsibly).

    But that is a topic for another debate.
    everyone oversells everything

    any reseller account with overselling enabled, means every reseller customer is overselling and means their upstreams are overselling

    plenty of people doing this well, and plenty not so well - it is what it is
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  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    everyone oversells everything

    any reseller account with overselling enabled, means every reseller customer is overselling and means their upstreams are overselling

    plenty of people doing this well, and plenty not so well - it is what it is
    I stand by my original comment.... I have yet to find a good provider who admits to doing this.

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  3. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVisitors View Post
    I stand by my original comment.... I have yet to find a good provider who admits to doing this.

    lol

    I'll take this further for you

    every provider has resold their port capacity to some extent and likely oversold their upstream capacity to a certain extent. add to it, that every single upstream is selling the provider commits which are oversold

    you either do not understand that every single provider is oversold (whether they know it or not), or you assume some simply are not - I can assure you, both the good and bad providers are oversold "somewhere" and to some extent

    our resellers are permitted to oversell, which means, down to the shared hosting server level we are oversold

    what are you trying to say?
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  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    lol

    I'll take this further for you

    every provider has resold their port capacity to some extent and likely oversold their upstream capacity to a certain extent. add to it, that every single upstream is selling the provider commits which are oversold

    you either do not understand that every single provider is oversold (whether they know it or not), or you assume some simply are not - I can assure you, both the good and bad providers are oversold "somewhere" and to some extent

    our resellers are permitted to oversell, which means, down to the shared hosting server level we are oversold

    what are you trying to say?
    I'm saying in your case... Both links in your sig take about 21 seconds to load.

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  5. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVisitors View Post
    I'm saying in your case... Both links in your sig take about 21 seconds to load.
    LOL

    come on, you can do it - have a rational conversation instead of being a troll

    funny thing is, we have been around long enough (13+ years), and have pages of threads on this forum disagreeing with you - this sort of tactic doesnt concern me. maybe try these tactics on more junior folks?
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  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    LOL

    come on, you can do it - have a rational conversation instead of being a troll

    funny thing is, we have been around long enough (13+ years), and have pages of threads on this forum disagreeing with you - this sort of tactic doesnt concern me. maybe try these tactics on more junior folks?
    I think you misunderstand my intention. But given that maybe something a troll would say, I guess I can not fault you for thinking so....

    Never the less, I was being honest when I said it took 21 seconds for both links to load in my browser. You can take it or leave it. But that is one of the first things I do look for.

    Because let's be honest... If the web host’s own site is slow to load, it does make someone a little sceptical about their services.

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  7. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVisitors View Post
    I think you misunderstand my intention. But given that maybe something a troll would say, I guess I can not fault you for thinking so....

    Never the less, I was being honest when I said it took 21 seconds for both links to load in my browser. You can take it or leave it. But that is one of the first things I do look for.

    Because let's be honest... If the web host’s own site is slow to load, it does make someone a little sceptical about their services.
    fair enough... and yes, it did sound a little trollish

    you must admit its kinda a low blow - if you dont understand that every provider is overselling - thats one thing.. happy to explain it to you

    re time to load, you should be careful - has little to do with overselling - external calls(ie google analytics), size of site, your specific route, etc play more into it then anything else

    so, its a long stretch to determine anything by a one time loading test of any site and certainly you should reconsider how you evaluate if thats the case (as you so eloquently put it, you can take it or leave it) - thankfully though, I am comfortable and confident enough to know the average global results and load times of not only our site, but, our average shared site (with or without CDN, using or not using our DNS) on every server (at a glance)
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  8. #183
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    This is good. One corner has logic, the other corner supports a theory they do not practice.
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  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    ...Advertising that there's no limit on either is deceptive.
    What if a host were to simply put a checkmark next to bandwidth and/or disk space to show they were included, just like some hosts put a checkmark next to email, mysql, etc. without stating any limits?
    Quote Originally Posted by HN-Laura View Post
    ...Will there be any point to advertising different sized shared plans after this change takes effect?
    I've stated it before, but perhaps you've missed it in this lengthy thread.

    When unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers were allowed on WHT (remember, they've only been banned 8 years), unlimited offers and limited offers were mixed altogether. The only thing that happened is, good hosts grew, not-so-good hosts didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    so do I and I think its here already, or, just around the corner
    It's been here a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by W1H-Lee View Post
    ... I await the excuses.
    Overselling was the evil before us for many years.

    Until some figured out what it meant.
    Quote Originally Posted by anon-e-mouse View Post
    So nothing will change then It's been that way since 2002 at least
    Some of my favorite "WHT is a blight on the Internet" threads are from 2000.
    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    ... I was one of those who thought overselling was the devil.

    Time, patience and experience is whats needed here. I have come to understand that perspectives change and its our responsibility to work through to consensus (or as close as possible)

    Im happy WHT went this route and now we can all start paying attention and educating customers (consumers and businesses) on what really matters
    I already admitted I was once against overselling. Have I mentioned I was once against unlimited?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVisitors View Post
    I'm saying in your case... Both links in your sig take about 21 seconds to load.
    I think your ISP is having issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVisitors View Post
    ... If the web host’s own site is slow to load, it does make someone a little sceptical about their services.
    Exactly! That's what the majority of consumers want. They want their web site to work. They're not so much concerned with all the numbers. They just want a site that fast and responsive.
    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    ... One corner has logic, the other corner supports a theory they do not practice.
    I think we need more than two corners.

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  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    What if a host were to simply put a checkmark next to bandwidth and/or disk space to show they were included, just like some hosts put a checkmark next to email, mysql, etc. without stating any limits?
    You mean taking the word "unlimited" out of offers? Sure - that definitely absolves you of liability for failing to provide "unlimited" service. Someone else might take issue with a lack of clear disclosure on the plan details, though.
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  11. #186
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    It is unfortunate that instead of coming together as an industry this is creating a bigger barrier. The reality is unlimited vs. limited isn't the issue. There are as many horrible hosts who cap their space as there are horrible host who provide unlimited. Unlimited vs. limited is not the issue.

    In addition, a ton of hosts who have space and bandwidth limits use lengthy AUP and resource use policies to prevent overloaded servers. Everyone really should because space and bandwidth are not truly the issues creating a poor hosting experience.

    Ultimately the fight should be not about pushing away unlimited host; however, it should be about pushing away horrible host no matter whether they are limited or unlimited.

    No one should be penalized for what they offer if they take care of their customers, properly maintain their servers, etc.
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  12. #187
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    Setting aside bandwidth:
    From a technical side, things like unlimited subdomains, email addresses, etc all can exist, however since ultimately their primary limiting factor for their creation is disk space, disk space is the overall limiting factor for every other limit.
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  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    You mean taking the word "unlimited" out of offers? Sure - that definitely absolves you of liability for failing to provide "unlimited" service. Someone else might take issue with a lack of clear disclosure on the plan details, though.
    Just something I noticed on some web host somewhere. Like, Email?[check], FTP?[check], MySQL?[check]. That sure ain't telling the consumer anything. And I sure hope the trend doesn't trickle down to disk space and bandwidth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Setting aside bandwidth:
    From a technical side, things like unlimited subdomains, email addresses, etc all can exist, however since ultimately their primary limiting factor for their creation is disk space, disk space is the overall limiting factor for every other limit.
    Do you think the average consumer knows that? How much of my disk space does setting up an email account cost me? Am I going to consider disk space when it's email? I can't even set up an unlimited amount of emails when I'm sold an unlimited amount of emails. And since I've never used any email account I set up, how can I be out of disk space? They're emails!

    Let's not even start with databases. Do those that offer unlimited databases also state that dbs require disk space?
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  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachary McClung View Post
    It is unfortunate that instead of coming together as an industry this is creating a bigger barrier. The reality is unlimited vs. limited isn't the issue. There are as many horrible hosts who cap their space as there are horrible host who provide unlimited. Unlimited vs. limited is not the issue.

    In addition, a ton of hosts who have space and bandwidth limits use lengthy AUP and resource use policies to prevent overloaded servers. Everyone really should because space and bandwidth are not truly the issues creating a poor hosting experience.

    Ultimately the fight should be not about pushing away unlimited host; however, it should be about pushing away horrible host no matter whether they are limited or unlimited.

    No one should be penalized for what they offer if they take care of their customers, properly maintain their servers, etc.
    Exactly!

    I'm suspecting more and more that at least some of those opposing offers that don't specify disk space and bandwidth limits are afraid of more competition. I doubt they'll admit it, though. They'd rather use outdated thinking and find other points to pick at than look at how the industry as a whole has been managing with these types of offers for years.
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  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    Just something I noticed on some web host somewhere. Like, Email?[check], FTP?[check], MySQL?[check].
    Those aren't quantities though, whereas disk space is. Are you talking about email accounts? Email processes? Email servers? Email storage space? Emails sent per minute? Otherwise, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison with "unlimited disk space".

    That sure ain't telling the consumer anything.
    If I saw a host advertising "MySQL: Check!", I'd assume that the service includes access to a MySQL server. But if you think the average consumer won't get this, then they sure as heck won't understand how "unlimited disk space" isn't really unlimited.

    Do you think the average consumer knows that?
    If they don't, then they sure aren't going to understand inodes, file count, or any other fine print that puts limits on "unlimited disk space". Hence my support for better disclosure.
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  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by writespeak View Post
    They'd rather use outdated thinking and find other points to pick at than look at how the industry as a whole has been managing with these types of offers for years.
    What part of "specifying how much disk space and bandwidth a customer will receive" is "outdated"?
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  17. #192
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    Time to limit all our package's emails, mysqls, ftp to comply with new WHT.
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  18. #193
    I never thought I would see the day that "Unlimited Bandwidth and Disk Space" would be considered a reality at WHT.

    So where can I go buy one of these unlimited hard drives?

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  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by CW Mike View Post
    Time to limit all our package's emails, mysqls, ftp to comply with new WHT.
    I'm still trying to figure out where to buy unlimited disks.

    The notion of "we call it unlimited, but it's not really unlimited, it's just that we provide more disk space than the client is ever likely to use. And if they do somehow manage to fill up the server, we'll just point to the fine print in the TOS, AUP, or order page as justification for terminating their service or impairing their usage" is just completely against every tenet of "truth in advertising".

    I wonder how many of the "unlimited disk space" hosts are willing to advertise "Maximum inode count" front and center on their details page, with an explanation at the bottom of what an inode is.
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  20. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    I wonder how many of the "unlimited disk space" hosts are willing to advertise "Maximum inode count" front and center on their details page, with an explanation at the bottom of what an inode is.
    You have to have one of those "Unlimited Drives" to handle "Unlimited Inodes."

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  21. #196
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    I just wish the anti-unlimited people had new complaints besides just repeating the same thing over and over.

    We get it, you're not happy. Blame the market, not WHT.
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  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyPenguin View Post
    You have to have one of those "Unlimited Drives" to handle "Unlimited Inodes."
    That's a good point, I bet the majority of these anti unlimited providers have no restrictions on INodes. We've had INode restrictions forever. People just think unlimited means INode restrictions, while it's not true at all.

    If you run a hosting company and don't limit the INodes a customer can use, you're asking for trouble....
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  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by stablehost View Post
    We get it, you're not happy. Blame the market, not WHT.
    Don't blame WHT for WHT's decisions? Well, that's certainly an interesting approach.

    "Blame" is hardly the correct word here. We were asked for feedback, and we're providing it. So far it's been a civil discussion. Though we certainly don't agree with WHT's decision, it's not like this has degenerated into a troll-fest or name-calling or anything.
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  24. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by stablehost View Post
    That's a good point, I bet the majority of these anti unlimited providers have no restrictions on INodes. We've had INode restrictions forever. People just think unlimited means INode restrictions, while it's not true at all.

    If you run a hosting company and don't limit the INodes a customer can use, you're asking for trouble....
    Actually quite a few of the unlimited hosts do have inode limits, but here is the paradox of the unlimited lie, with having inode limits such actually places a fixed amount of disk space for a client.

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  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyPenguin View Post
    Actually quite a few of the unlimited hosts do have inode limits, but here is the paradox of the unlimited lie, with having inode limits such actually places a fixed amount of disk space for a client.

    Limited hosts have inode limits as well. Oh we're giving you 10GB space but 500,000 inodes! Depending on the user application they'll go over their inodes before their disk space.
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