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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    Illegal: "You get unlimited* disk space!" Fine print under ad: "* Disk space is limited to 300 GB"
    The asterisk is legal as long as the definitions are on the same advertisement though aren't they. Mobile and cable ads generally have a few symbols going, but they are always defined in the tiny print at the end of the ad.
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  2. #127
    They can and will -- by getting burned by unlimited hosting. Some will say "heh, that's too bad, should've read the fine print", but I say "let's ban impossible offers in the first place".
    Hi Lisa,

    I am not trying to start a fight - and believe me when I tell you - I used to be on your side of this argument, so, please just humor me here?

    May I ask how this scenario is any different then a customer being "burned" by a "limited host" because they didnt read the fine print?

    I can tell you, explicitly and with the greatest humility - that on our unlimited bandwidth cpanel plans - we are getting customers who have been "burned" by such fine print with limited hosts. They are running their applications with us, because we give them more CPU and more RAM per account then their previous host did - and as a result, they can use more bandwidth

    << removed >>

    The jist of it is this - they cant use "unlimited bandwidth" in our plans, but, they can consume as much as they can within their allotted CPU and RAM limits.

    Differences? our CPU and RAM limits are listed right on the buy page (not hidden in the TOS)

    End Result? we are actively hearing that customers can push significantly more bandwidth with our accounts, then they could with their previous limited package accounts, arent getting suspended for resource abuse and if they are throttled or do hit those limits, they understand what their CPU and RAM limitations are because its published prominently on our plan pages

    so, I ask you

    1) is it really fair for you and others to call our offering a "scam" and a "threat to consumers" and "illegal"?

    2) how is it possible that people sell a limited bandwidth plan and allocate less CPU and RAM per $ then we do, hide that limit in their fine print, and yet, we are considered the scam?

    3) isnt the real difference now between providers how much cpu, ram and disk IO a user gets? (more so then whether someone says 500GB bandwidth or unlimited?)


    I can tell you all - I am starting to feel like Im the witch in the witch hunt. everyone keeps saying that unlimited is the devil, unfair to consumers, illegal, etc, etc

    meanwhile, our resource limits are clearly advertised and I am watching "limited" hosts hide their miniscule resource limits in their TOS while screaming "look, the witch is over there - burn them !!!"

    I think a bigger emphasis should be made on educating consumers and helping them identify what they are buying for their dollar - and frankly, telling me any host is doing things properly when they have hidden resource limitations in their TOS doesnt fly. Standup and tell people what they are buying - right there on your buy page - or frankly, you have lost your right to complain

    if everyone really wants to compete with the "unlimited hosts" - its simple really

    on your buy page, list CPU, RAM, IO, etc limitations of your account

    then, go to the TOS pages of these unlimited hosts and put up a little table on your site comparing your resource allocations and how much better they are then the other guys offering unlimited bandwidth
    Last edited by writespeak; 09-12-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    The asterisk is legal as long as the definitions are on the same advertisement though aren't they. Mobile and cable ads generally have a few symbols going, but they are always defined in the tiny print at the end of the ad.
    Maybe. If the fine print makes it impossible for anyone to get the deal, then it's illegal. The grey area comes when it begins imposing terms on the offer. If those terms substantially change the offer, then you're likely to face criminal prosecution at a federal or state level.

    Exactly what defines "substantially change" is up to the courts, but it generally is taken to mean "different from what an average consumer would understand". Scammers love to challenge this with "but the average consumer WOULD understand this if they just read the fine print and terms", and of course, that's ridiculous. "Of course the consumer would understand this if they understood it".

    Of course, my opinion doesn't matter. It's only how the judge or jury feels that ultimately matters. In regards to banning those offers from WHT, I'm in favor of keeping them off because it's a pretty good defense for consumers. It's certainly not bulletproof, but it takes a big bite out of a common problem area.
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  4. #129
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    A lot of these unlimited host are either slow loading (because their pipe is flooded and / or they're on under developed managed networks)

    Or I would call it misleading when they use a wonderful network and setup for their own site, but push all their customers else where (usually even a different data centre).

    This is not quality in the least.

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  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    May I ask how this scenario is any different then a customer being "burned" by a "limited host" because they didnt read the fine print?
    What specifically -- banning unlimited ads on WHT? Nobody is suggesting that the community can protect every customer from every problem host. That's an unrealistic expectation. But blocking ads from plans that have a well-documented and well-earned reputation of causing problems for consumers is a great start.

    1) is it really fair for you and others to call our offering a "scam" and a "threat to consumers" and "illegal"?
    Feel free to point to the post where I said your company is a scam, that your company is a threat to consumers, or that your company has done anything illegal. Until then, you might want to rethink your wording.

    2) how is it possible that people sell a limited bandwidth plan and allocate less CPU and RAM per $ then we do, hide that limit in their fine print, and yet, we are considered the scam?
    You started off saying that you aren't trying to pick a fight, but now you're basing your conclusion off of false premises. I'm assuming you're just fired up about the subject and did this without realizing it, but some less-reputable characters use this fallacy to "win" a debate.

    3) isnt the real difference now between providers how much cpu, ram and disk IO a user gets? (more so then whether someone says 500GB bandwidth or unlimited?)
    I wholeheartedly agree with this point, and it's a subject that we all continually need to educate consumers on. Bandwidth and disk space are important, but there are many, many factors that come into play. CPU and I/O throughput are good points, as is network congestion, hardware quality, presence / quality of backups, quality of support, IP reputation, and bundled features are just a few.

    You'll get no argument from me that these are the things that matter. In case I haven't been clear from my posts here or my posting history, offering unlimited disk space or bandwidth does not automatically make one a bad host, nor does the lack of either automatically make one a good host. They are, however, characteristics that are at best confusing, and they tend to be a red flag that says a host warrants closer scrutiny.

    I just looked through your shared hosting order pages, and I don't see any unlimited disk or bandwidth packages. Where are you offering them?
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  6. #131
    Hi Lisa - thanks for your comments - some very good points, and I "think" we are both saying the same thing. I just think the word "unlimited" is a wild goose chase (and I "think" WHT sees that now)... if we really want to protect the consumer, there are better and more effective and practical ways...

    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    What specifically -- banning unlimited ads on WHT? Nobody is suggesting that the community can protect every customer from every problem host. That's an unrealistic expectation. But blocking ads from plans that have a well-documented and well-earned reputation of causing problems for consumers is a great start.
    my point was, the word unlimited doesnt do this - 500GB disk, 1000GB bandwidth for $2.99 from a company started yesterday on a hostgator reseller plan is no different - and is actually a bigger problem in my opinion

    Feel free to point to the post where I said your company is a scam, that your company is a threat to consumers, or that your company has done anything illegal. Until then, you might want to rethink your wording.
    Sorry Lisa if I offended you or if I came off wrong. I dont need to re-think my wording - though, you have illustrated my point. We should not simply assign labels like "fraud, scam, illegal" to a WORD - as each scenario is different. And no, you never called our company or our offerings any of those things - but, if you throw a label on the word unlimited, then anyone using that term gets caught within that label - and I dont think that is appropriate.

    Again, I think there are MUCH better ways to protect both consumers and vendors



    You started off saying that you aren't trying to pick a fight, but now you're basing your conclusion off of false premises. I'm assuming you're just fired up about the subject and did this without realizing it, but some less-reputable characters use this fallacy to "win" a debate.
    I understand - and honestly Lisa - I have followed you for awhile and hold a good amount of respect for you. I am not trying to pick a fight, I promise


    I just looked through your shared hosting order pages, and I don't see any unlimited disk or bandwidth packages. Where are you offering them?
    its our newer cpanel offerings - we never used to offer something like this and we would not convert our traditional clustered offerings to this, as customers explicitly bought into a non-unlimited model, so, we didnt think it was right to force them into an unlimited model. If they choose to, they can switch to our new offering. Figured that was the best way to handle this
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  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    The thing is by advertising the word "unlimited" then having in your ToS limitation is almost against advertising laws.

    Take a look at this: http://www.hostingdiscussion.com/web...g-illegal.html

    Here is a classic example of recent affairs: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/T...Service-109801

    By all means throw the word unlimited around but if you wake up one morning with a letter saying your gonna be fined $10,000 for false advertising who's to blame?
    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    We're providing feedback on their decision. They may decide to change their stance based on their users' feedback, or they may not -- that's up to them. But until then, this thread is exploring the very topic they brought up.
    Well guys, I have been following these threads, people in here are opposing this decision just because this might hurt their business not for advertisement legalities.

    But they should take it this way, they are getting business from WHT, now WHT are reevaluating their business plans so should they. (If they think unlimited offers may beat them out)
    Last edited by Fakher; 09-12-2013 at 02:33 PM.
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  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    The thing is by advertising the word "unlimited" then having in your ToS limitation is almost against advertising laws.

    Take a look at this: http://www.hostingdiscussion.com/web...g-illegal.html

    Here is a classic example of recent affairs: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/T...Service-109801

    By all means throw the word unlimited around but if you wake up one morning with a letter saying your gonna be fined $10,000 for false advertising who's to blame?
    It will be advertised on WHT, legality issues shall be faced by WHT if there will be any. And I am sure they will have plans to tackle these things with.
    I mean WHT management didn't decided it blindly or it was not an overnight decision, they might have considered all pros and corns...
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  9. #134
    Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    The thing is by advertising the word "unlimited" then having in your ToS limitation is almost against advertising laws.

    Take a look at this: http://www.hostingdiscussion.com/web...g-illegal.html

    Here is a classic example of recent affairs: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/T...Service-109801

    By all means throw the word unlimited around but if you wake up one morning with a letter saying your gonna be fined $10,000 for false advertising who's to blame?
    your examples are exactly correct

    its what cell phone providers went through with unlimited evening and weekend minutes. these variables have to be defined in the ads (ie evenings start at 6PM, etc)

    its no different with ISPs or Web Hosts. You cant say "unlimited bandwidth" and then have fine print saying you are limited to 10GB. Whats really going to be fun are the limits on CPU and such hidden in terms - as no one truly understands what bandwidth # those limits translate into for lets say CPU, under "normal" usage.

    the articles linked above are a perfect example of what is illegal and what isnt.

    you will notice ISPs have changed as a result - ie saying unlimited bandwidth and 5/10 Mbps Up/Down (or whatever) in their ads now, vs just "unlimited" before with fine print saying otherwise

    just because companies were sued for particular usage of the term unlimited, does not mean the term itself is illegal. all of those industries, selling all of those services, still use the same word - its all in the presentation, and that is what has changed

    as I have said, if WHT really wants to lead the pack on this, they should enforce all shared hosting advertisers, who utilize the word "unlimited" in ANY capacity, to explicitly state the boundries of the term "unlimited" right on their ad and buy pages

    eventually that is where the hosting industry will get to anyway
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  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakher View Post
    Well guys, I have been following these threads, people in here are opposing this decision just because this might hurt their business not for advertisement legalities.

    But they should take it this way, they are getting business from WHT, now WHT are reevaluating their business plans so should they. (If they think unlimited offers may beat them out)
    I think the thread wouldn't have looked as bad if the supporters had just let the venters vent for a bit. The thought of WHT becoming a veritable EIG top ten list sent some of us into a tangent for a minute, mainly because we sent others here specifically to avoid that. But EIG will still be EIG after all.
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  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    The thing is by advertising the word "unlimited" then having in your ToS limitation is almost against advertising laws.

    Take a look at this: http://www.hostingdiscussion.com/web...g-illegal.html

    Here is a classic example of recent affairs: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/T...Service-109801

    By all means throw the word unlimited around but if you wake up one morning with a letter saying your gonna be fined $10,000 for false advertising who's to blame?
    I would just like to point out right now nearly every provider is going to be guilty on this front. If it's not space and bandwidth then it's advertising unlimited y. The TOS of course is protecting that provider.

    Unlimited databases? - Not possible OS limitations and database software
    Unlimited Emails - Not possible OS limitations
    No defined file limit - Not possible OS limitations
    Unlimited Add-on Domains - Not possible OS and web server limitations


    This does not even take into account every other hidden aspect that is not even mentioned at all. Ever see a database with 100,000 tables? How about a PHP application that attempts to include a million files. Do you specify number of concurrent connections? This could go on for pages about possible aspects that are not advertised but do have very real limits.

    Anyone who thinks those don't matter. A simple script can be provided to show otherwise. It's very easy to break nearly everything. The chances of each scenario happening varies.
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  12. #137
    @DWS2006 - you're probably exactly right and thinking about it, I should have stayed out of this thread and let people vent - afterall, WHT made the change many of us have wanted, so, why get into the discussion again. point well made and lesson learned
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  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    my point was, the word unlimited doesnt do this - 500GB disk, 1000GB bandwidth for $2.99 from a company started yesterday on a hostgator reseller plan is no different - and is actually a bigger problem in my opinion
    That's also a problem. There are any number of pitfalls that a new consumer will fall into. It takes pennies to "start" a "hosting company" (I'm using both of those terms very, very loosely), which means that the barrier to entry is low. So anybody can set up shop tonight, take $10 each from 20 customers for a year of service, then disappear in a month when their next invoice comes due. There's very little that WHT can do to mitigate this. I've often thought that a "preferred members" section, where only corporate users can post offers, would be a great start, but even that isn't foolproof.

    Banning unlimited offers, on the other hand, is a very simple step that yields significant positive results. It's not foolproof, and it prevents some otherwise legitimate companies from advertising their services. But it goes long way towards blocking out a HUGE number of fly-by-night companies

    I understand - and honestly Lisa - I have followed you for awhile and hold a good amount of respect for you. I am not trying to pick a fight, I promise
    No worries, I realize it's a more delicate issue for some than others.
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  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakher View Post
    Well guys, I have been following these threads, people in here are opposing this decision just because this might hurt their business not for advertisement legalities.

    But they should take it this way, they are getting business from WHT, now WHT are reevaluating their business plans so should they. (If they think unlimited offers may beat them out)
    It's not the advertising....it's about the customer and the potential of frustration which makes them leave an "unlimited" host for a better option....or sadly bounce between 7 to 8 unlimited hosts before finding a better option.

    Just like anything in life, you give to someone what you deserve for yourself. If I can give or refer someone to a good option from day 1, and they can grow with that option, why give them something that will break down the road?
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  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    That's also a problem. There are any number of pitfalls that a new consumer will fall into. It takes pennies to "start" a "hosting company" (I'm using both of those terms very, very loosely), which means that the barrier to entry is low. So anybody can set up shop tonight, take $10 each from 20 customers for a year of service, then disappear in a month when their next invoice comes due. There's very little that WHT can do to mitigate this. I've often thought that a "preferred members" section, where only corporate users can post offers, would be a great start, but even that isn't foolproof.

    I've suggested a few times on options to cut down on fly-by nights. My suggestions were;

    1. A host can only advertise if they have been in business for X amount of months or years

    2. Or has X amount of posts

    3. Or X amount customers

    4. Does not have X amount of bad reviews in a 30 or 60 day period.


    My previous industry had such things in place....and in place for a reason. Like only supplying resources to record labels and not directly to artists. Programs only available to established artists with 2 years of experience, and so forth.

    It drastically cuts down on the fly by nights.
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  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by wirefusemedia View Post
    Hosting companies have evolved over the past many years to offer unlimited hosting. Why did they do this? That is the direction of the consumer market, towards unlimited hosting. Regardless of whether you think it is immoral, it is a part of the evolution of the hosting industry as a whole. Unlimited hosting is here to stay, whether you like it or not.

    Following up from a conversation I had with WHT in HostingCon earlier this year, the position of WHT to not allow unlimited hosting was primarily due to the fact that the majority of WHT users voted against allowing unlimited ads. The problem with this perspective is the large percentage of people who post on WHT, are small hosting companies and service providers. One must take into consideration the fact that the WHT users who actively post, are biased towards one answer, while the (much larger) population of WHT visitors are not so biased towards the same answer. The factor that WHT, nor anybody else seemed to take into consideration, is that the larger population of WHT visitors do not have an account, and most importantly, do not have a voice.

    Over the past few years with the introduction of unlimited hosting in the big companies, the only way the smaller companies could conceive of competing is by offering limited plans, and boasting a higher quality service. This is why the majority of the "WHT hosts" are against unlimited hosting. The argument that an unlimited hosting provider is unable to provide the same level of quality as a limited hosting provider is false. With the introduction of CloudLinux, betterlinux and 1H products. The ability to control a server and prevent any one user from affecting other users has greatly advanced. Furthermore, the argument that unlimited hosting is false advertising is incorrect as well. The terms of the particular product are always displayed in the TOS. Furthermore, some hosts are even being more upfront on their website and displaying a "laymans terms" of what is and not allowed on the host. It doesn't take very much experience to know that 99% of hosting companies will never come close to using up all the plan resources on a limited plan. Therefore the idea of offering unlimited hosting to these companies in order to have a competitive advantage was not too distant. It is rooted deep down in every human being, the urge to get a good deal. Unlimited for a digital product was inevitible. It has and always will be a marketing tactic for a market sector that has actually seen decline in recent years.

    It only takes a quick second to check google trends and see just what the search volume for unlimited hosting is: http://www.google.com/trends/explore...hosting&cmpt=q

    Searches for unlimited hosting, is at its lowest levels, EVER. Why is this the case? It is because the market has evolved, as more and more people joined the web, they initially went with an unlimited hosting provider because it seemed like a good deal. That is no longer, so the idea that an unlimited host has a distinct advantage over a limited host is false. If we had a poll, and asked the majority of WHT users if when they signed up for their first few hosting providers, if they ever signed up with an unlimited host, the odds would be in favor of it saying yes. Unlimited hosting was in it's infancy many years ago, however now it not only has no marketing advantages over a limited host, but also no longer means the quality of the hosting is less than the quality of a limited host.

    Remember, unlimited hosting first earned a bad rap when the small reseller kiddies decided to offer it as a way of gaining more usersquickly, all without offering the same level of quality as the bigger hosting companies. Evolution is seen in every aspect of life, and an industry is no different. The tides have turned, the kiddie hosts can no longer get big by offering unlimited hosting and poor support. With WHT allowing the ability for hosts to post unlimited ads, it opens the door for hosting companies to compete closer on the end user experience. This will only broaden the horizon for the hosting industry as a whole, and very likely have the opposite effect most here think it will. I hypothesis that with WHT allowing unlimited hosts, it will contribute to more hosts actually reverting back to limited plans.
    Well said.

    Interesting that no one quoted that post. However, many have bashed WHT/iNET for what they decided must be the reason for the change.

    As SWR has posted, the decision to allow offers with unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers did not happen because of pressure from anyone. There was no such pressure. It's his job to make decisions that are best for the community, and while member feedback will always be important, it isn't the only factor in decision making. He asked for feedback on this topic because he wanted to know what the community thought. And finally there came a point when the only path that made sense was to allow unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers.

    How can it be "honest" to allow offers of 999,999 GB of disk space and bandwidth but not allow offers that don't specify limits on disk space and bandwidth? In both instances, there are caps on usage, but in the first one, the host is lying about what the caps are. We can't draw a line at what are acceptable limits and what aren't. So, we have to either allow ridiculous limits or allow offers with no specified disk space and bandwidth limits.

    I see plenty of complaints as well as plenty of praise for hosts that advertise offers with specified disk space and bandwidth limits. I expect the same will be true when unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers are also allowed. So many factors can contribute to whether a client has a good or bad experience with a web host.

    Let's say for the sake of argument that more people will be unhappy with the hosting they find on WHT after we allow unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers. Those clients will be looking for new hosting, and since they already know WHT, chances are they'll come back here, do more research, and find a host they like better. That means more potential clients for the hosts already posting here.

    And let's say that it turns out that unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers aren't evil and that clients who use those plans have the same average rates of satisfaction or dissatisfaction as clients do with plans that specify disk space and bandwidth limits. We would be wrong not to allow them to advertise on WHT, right?

    WHT will always be a place where mom-and-pop hosts as well as larger companies can thrive. Many of the larger web hosting companies here got their start on WHT as small companies. I see no reason for this to change. Consumers look for quality, and the good reviews that quality, established hosts get will continue as long the companies are being run well. Not-so-good hosts, whether or not they offer unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers, will continue to get bad reviews and thus fewer clients. With evolving technology, disk space and bandwidth limits are not as meaningful as they once were. Good uptime, good customer service, and good value for what they pay will continue to be what people look for.
    "Do what you can, where you are, with what you have." – Theodore Roosevelt
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  17. #142
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    If the advertising of unlimited hosting plans is going to be allowed, I think it would be helpful if the plans were in an unlimted sub forum and perhaps reviews for such plans in a sub forum of it.
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  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    @SoftWareRevue thanks for taking the time to reply.

    I'm the first to admit that my knee-jerk reaction to the move was one sided. I just hope that the transition allows the small and large hosts to coexist as you suggested, I joined after the ban so I can't speak to that. Like 48-14 I've told users to come here specifically to avoid the noise of the top-ten lists, etc., that makes the change a little harder to accept.

    I'm also hoping that some of the largest multi-brand providers aren't allowed to overstate their influence via their separate-but-the-same companies. It's bad enough that they successfully use this tactic to repeatedly hoodwink unsuspecting users, it would be terrible if they were aloud to do the same here.
    The Forum Rules and Guidelines state, "Advertising is limited to one thread per 7 days posted in the Advertising Forums regarding your companies, sub-companies or associated companies. It will remain any companies' responsibility to schedule and maintain the offers your employees post in conforming with this important rule." It's something we enforce quite rigorously.
    Quote Originally Posted by sam9000 View Post
    ... anon-e-mouse said we should give the consumer more credit and that was shot down pretty fast and dismissed. That wasn't fair. The average consumer deserves a lot more credit and hosts would be foolish to think the average consumer doesn't research everything to death before signing up.
    Thanks for giving the consumer the credit they deserve. As you and Jan have pointed out, they're a lot more savvy today than they were eight years ago. Smart phones really have made consumers much smarter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loon View Post
    I actually think that we as a community have an opportunity with this to ensure your average joe consumer is better informed, not the opposite as many are suggesting.

    Right now, if somebody comes here looking for an unlimited plan and doesn't find one in the ad forums, they are just going to find one elsewhere. Wherever that is, it's unlikely to give them any indication that the offer isn't exactly what it says on the tin, and that there are specific limits (other than the TOS, which we know nobody reads). If they do get burned that's when they probably come back here and complain. Yes we often do a good job of educating them at that point in whatever thread they create, but it's after the fact. Their opinion of this industry as a whole is already set.

    This change is just WHT accepting the fact that unlimited plans are out there, people are buying them and they are probably not going away. If we welcome those consumers then we have the opportunity to educate and inform them before they buy - either within the thread (we've already started that with the 'notice to consumers'), through announcements or otherwise - push them away to find an unlimited plan somewhere else then we can only sit and wait for the 'xyzhost is a scam threads' to appear. In the meantime, plenty more people are out there clicking 'buy now' without a clue that an offer might not be exactly as it says.

    We can't pretend something isn't a big part of this industry when it is, but we can say 'here it is if that's what you're after .. and here's what we think you should know before you buy'
    Have you considered changing your username from Loon to Owl. Owls are wise, ya know. Loons aren't known so much for being so wise. But you're changing that perception too!
    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    @cartika-andrew and @Loon, well said and definitely good food for thought.

    Hopefully the change will bring new life to WHT and set the stage for more debates like this one, something that has faded from the forum in recent years. Maybe too, those of us (me included) that have rallied against the "unlimited" model will be exposed to better "unlimited" hosts than what we're used to seeing, we may even find we've been supporting the wrong hosts all along.

    Even the craziest and most stubborn users will come around soon enough.
    You're absolutely right. We won't know the affect until we know.
    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    ... the vast majority of web hosting customers don't care about the underpinnings of their hosts or the finer points of what an inode is, they just want their website to work...
    Exactly. Why should you tell them they can't look at any host that offers unlimited bandwidth and/or disk space?

    Have you seen the complain threads about hosts around here? Are those complaints because their account was terminated or throttled because they purchased an unlimited plan that was limited? I think you'll find the bulk of the complaints are "my website doesn't work". You're right - They just want a website that works. They're not concerned over anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    The thing is by advertising the word "unlimited" then having in your ToS limitation is almost against advertising laws.

    Take a look at this: http://www.hostingdiscussion.com/web...g-illegal.html

    Here is a classic example of recent affairs: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/T...Service-109801

    By all means throw the word unlimited around but if you wake up one morning with a letter saying your gonna be fined $10,000 for false advertising who's to blame?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVisitors View Post
    ... This is not quality in the least.
    Now I don't know who to listen to. Lisa says it's all about quality. You say unlimited isn't quality. So are you saying limited is quality?

    I'd suggest reading through the forum and looking at those threads where consumers are having issues with quality and seeing if those quality concerns arose from limited or unlimited hosts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fakher View Post
    ... I mean WHT management didn't decided it blindly or it was not an overnight decision, they might have considered all pros and corns...
    You would not believe how much time and resources went into this decision. You'd a thunk we were drafting the Constitution or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    I think the thread wouldn't have looked as bad if the supporters had just let the venters vent for a bit...
    And to think I waited until post #91 to reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyB View Post
    I would just like to point out right now nearly every provider is going to be guilty on this front. If it's not space and bandwidth then it's advertising unlimited y. The TOS of course is protecting that provider.

    Unlimited databases? - Not possible OS limitations and database software
    Unlimited Emails - Not possible OS limitations
    No defined file limit - Not possible OS limitations
    Unlimited Add-on Domains - Not possible OS and web server limitations


    This does not even take into account every other hidden aspect that is not even mentioned at all. Ever see a database with 100,000 tables? How about a PHP application that attempts to include a million files. Do you specify number of concurrent connections? This could go on for pages about possible aspects that are not advertised but do have very real limits.

    Anyone who thinks those don't matter. A simple script can be provided to show otherwise. It's very easy to break nearly everything. The chances of each scenario happening varies.
    I mentioned the same thing earlier. You just mentioned it better.
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  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by writespeak View Post
    ... WHT will always be a place where mom-and-pop hosts as well as larger companies can thrive. Many of the larger web hosting companies here got their start on WHT as small companies. I see no reason for this to change. Consumers look for quality, and the good reviews that quality, established hosts get will continue as long the companies are being run well. Not-so-good hosts, whether or not they offer unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers, will continue to get bad reviews and thus fewer clients. With evolving technology, disk space and bandwidth limits are not as meaningful as they once were. Good uptime, good customer service, and good value for what they pay will continue to be what people look for.
    Wait. Don't we live in relative close proximity to each other?

    We should coordinate posting.

    But you're right - mom and pop will be just fine.
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  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    Exactly. Why should you tell them they can't look at any host that offers unlimited bandwidth and/or disk space?

    Have you seen the complain threads about hosts around here? Are those complaints because their account was terminated or throttled because they purchased an unlimited plan that was limited? I think you'll find the bulk of the complaints are "my website doesn't work". You're right - They just want a website that works. They're not concerned over anything else.
    Hence the reasoning for banning unlimited ads. Banning unlimited ads wipes out a huge slew of fly-by-night hosts. It's a simple yet effective pro-consumer strategy. Of course, this is to say nothing of the fact that "unlimited disk space" or "unlimited bandwidth" is a prima facie impossibility. It simply doesn't exist; no host can provide it. Advertising that there's no limit on either is deceptive.
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  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by writespeak View Post
    How can it be "honest" to allow offers of 999,999 GB of disk space and bandwidth but not allow offers that don't specify limits on disk space and bandwidth?
    It's almost as if there's room for moderation and common sense somewhere in the middle.
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  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakher View Post
    It will be advertised on WHT, legality issues shall be faced by WHT if there will be any. And I am sure they will have plans to tackle these things with.
    Not really - the advertiser, not the publisher, would bear the brunt of any criminal proceedings. I don't remember the caselaw off the top of my head but that's been pretty well established.
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  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    as I have said, if WHT really wants to lead the pack on this, they should enforce all shared hosting advertisers, who utilize the word "unlimited" in ANY capacity, to explicitly state the boundries of the term "unlimited" right on their ad and buy pages
    Legal issues aside, I'd feel a lot better about this change if hosts were required to link to their TOS / AUP in each ad, or whatever binding document establishes the terms of their "unlimited" offer, and if the post bumper was modified to say something like "Unlimited offers may include additional terms or restrictions on your usage; be sure to consult the advertiser for full details."

    That still doesn't resolve the fact that it's illegal to say "UNLIMITED* DISK SPACE! * - limited to 4096 files".
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  24. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    Legal issues aside, I'd feel a lot better about this change if hosts were required to link to their TOS / AUP in each ad, or whatever binding document establishes the terms of their "unlimited" offer, and if the post bumper was modified to say something like "Unlimited offers may include additional terms or restrictions on your usage; be sure to consult the advertiser for full details."


    progress - and I agree - Im not sure of the "final" answer - but, I am sure its in the presentation. and I think if we all really want to protect consumers, this is where we should be focussed

    That still doesn't resolve the fact that it's illegal to say "UNLIMITED* DISK SPACE! * - limited to 4096 files".
    its not illegal !!!

    at least not anymore so then saying unlimited minutes (limited to 1440 minutes in a day)

    this battle has already been fought and settled in the courts - so, my only point is, lets be careful about terms like illegal. lets all try and focus on the context and presentation - as thats really what determines legal marketing and illegal marketing tactics
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    Banning unlimited ads wipes out a huge slew of fly-by-night hosts.
    Hey, that gives me an idea. Let's ban everyone who offers hosting on reseller accounts. That would wipe out a huge slew of fly-by-night hosts.

    Of course it would be unfair to all the quality providers using reseller accounts, though. Just as banning unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers keeps out a lot of providers who run good businesses and treat clients well.

    As I said, a lot of factors go into whether clients are happy or not happy with their web hosting providers.

    Advertising that there's no limit on either is deceptive.
    "Unlimited" doesn't mean that there's no limit on either. It means that the limit for those factors aren't specified -- but there are still limits on account usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    It's almost as if there's room for moderation and common sense somewhere in the middle.
    We'd still have to draw a line somewhere. And there's no way to choose a point for that line at which one side is good and the other side isn't good.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    That still doesn't resolve the fact that it's illegal to say "UNLIMITED* DISK SPACE! * - limited to 4096 files".
    Do you have an unlimited cell phone plan? Do the terms for that plan have an asterisk?
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