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09-12-2013, 11:30 AM #126Web Hosting Master
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09-12-2013, 01:07 PM #127Location = SoapBox
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They can and will -- by getting burned by unlimited hosting. Some will say "heh, that's too bad, should've read the fine print", but I say "let's ban impossible offers in the first place".
I am not trying to start a fight - and believe me when I tell you - I used to be on your side of this argument, so, please just humor me here?
May I ask how this scenario is any different then a customer being "burned" by a "limited host" because they didnt read the fine print?
I can tell you, explicitly and with the greatest humility - that on our unlimited bandwidth cpanel plans - we are getting customers who have been "burned" by such fine print with limited hosts. They are running their applications with us, because we give them more CPU and more RAM per account then their previous host did - and as a result, they can use more bandwidth
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The jist of it is this - they cant use "unlimited bandwidth" in our plans, but, they can consume as much as they can within their allotted CPU and RAM limits.
Differences? our CPU and RAM limits are listed right on the buy page (not hidden in the TOS)
End Result? we are actively hearing that customers can push significantly more bandwidth with our accounts, then they could with their previous limited package accounts, arent getting suspended for resource abuse and if they are throttled or do hit those limits, they understand what their CPU and RAM limitations are because its published prominently on our plan pages
so, I ask you
1) is it really fair for you and others to call our offering a "scam" and a "threat to consumers" and "illegal"?
2) how is it possible that people sell a limited bandwidth plan and allocate less CPU and RAM per $ then we do, hide that limit in their fine print, and yet, we are considered the scam?
3) isnt the real difference now between providers how much cpu, ram and disk IO a user gets? (more so then whether someone says 500GB bandwidth or unlimited?)
I can tell you all - I am starting to feel like Im the witch in the witch hunt. everyone keeps saying that unlimited is the devil, unfair to consumers, illegal, etc, etc
meanwhile, our resource limits are clearly advertised and I am watching "limited" hosts hide their miniscule resource limits in their TOS while screaming "look, the witch is over there - burn them !!!"
I think a bigger emphasis should be made on educating consumers and helping them identify what they are buying for their dollar - and frankly, telling me any host is doing things properly when they have hidden resource limitations in their TOS doesnt fly. Standup and tell people what they are buying - right there on your buy page - or frankly, you have lost your right to complain
if everyone really wants to compete with the "unlimited hosts" - its simple really
on your buy page, list CPU, RAM, IO, etc limitations of your account
then, go to the TOS pages of these unlimited hosts and put up a little table on your site comparing your resource allocations and how much better they are then the other guys offering unlimited bandwidthLast edited by writespeak; 09-12-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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09-12-2013, 01:34 PM #128Web Hosting Master
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Maybe. If the fine print makes it impossible for anyone to get the deal, then it's illegal. The grey area comes when it begins imposing terms on the offer. If those terms substantially change the offer, then you're likely to face criminal prosecution at a federal or state level.
Exactly what defines "substantially change" is up to the courts, but it generally is taken to mean "different from what an average consumer would understand". Scammers love to challenge this with "but the average consumer WOULD understand this if they just read the fine print and terms", and of course, that's ridiculous. "Of course the consumer would understand this if they understood it".
Of course, my opinion doesn't matter. It's only how the judge or jury feels that ultimately matters. In regards to banning those offers from WHT, I'm in favor of keeping them off because it's a pretty good defense for consumers. It's certainly not bulletproof, but it takes a big bite out of a common problem area.1
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09-12-2013, 01:37 PM #129Web Hosting Master
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A lot of these unlimited host are either slow loading (because their pipe is flooded and / or they're on under developed managed networks)
Or I would call it misleading when they use a wonderful network and setup for their own site, but push all their customers else where (usually even a different data centre).
This is not quality in the least.1
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09-12-2013, 01:53 PM #130Web Hosting Master
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What specifically -- banning unlimited ads on WHT? Nobody is suggesting that the community can protect every customer from every problem host. That's an unrealistic expectation. But blocking ads from plans that have a well-documented and well-earned reputation of causing problems for consumers is a great start.
1) is it really fair for you and others to call our offering a "scam" and a "threat to consumers" and "illegal"?
2) how is it possible that people sell a limited bandwidth plan and allocate less CPU and RAM per $ then we do, hide that limit in their fine print, and yet, we are considered the scam?
3) isnt the real difference now between providers how much cpu, ram and disk IO a user gets? (more so then whether someone says 500GB bandwidth or unlimited?)
You'll get no argument from me that these are the things that matter. In case I haven't been clear from my posts here or my posting history, offering unlimited disk space or bandwidth does not automatically make one a bad host, nor does the lack of either automatically make one a good host. They are, however, characteristics that are at best confusing, and they tend to be a red flag that says a host warrants closer scrutiny.
I just looked through your shared hosting order pages, and I don't see any unlimited disk or bandwidth packages. Where are you offering them?1
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09-12-2013, 02:23 PM #131Location = SoapBox
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Hi Lisa - thanks for your comments - some very good points, and I "think" we are both saying the same thing. I just think the word "unlimited" is a wild goose chase (and I "think" WHT sees that now)... if we really want to protect the consumer, there are better and more effective and practical ways...
my point was, the word unlimited doesnt do this - 500GB disk, 1000GB bandwidth for $2.99 from a company started yesterday on a hostgator reseller plan is no different - and is actually a bigger problem in my opinion
Feel free to point to the post where I said your company is a scam, that your company is a threat to consumers, or that your company has done anything illegal. Until then, you might want to rethink your wording.
Again, I think there are MUCH better ways to protect both consumers and vendors
You started off saying that you aren't trying to pick a fight, but now you're basing your conclusion off of false premises. I'm assuming you're just fired up about the subject and did this without realizing it, but some less-reputable characters use this fallacy to "win" a debate.
I just looked through your shared hosting order pages, and I don't see any unlimited disk or bandwidth packages. Where are you offering them?www.cartika.com
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09-12-2013, 02:27 PM #132Cloud Reseller Experts
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Well guys, I have been following these threads, people in here are opposing this decision just because this might hurt their business not for advertisement legalities.
But they should take it this way, they are getting business from WHT, now WHT are reevaluating their business plans so should they. (If they think unlimited offers may beat them out)Last edited by Fakher; 09-12-2013 at 02:33 PM.
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09-12-2013, 02:32 PM #133Cloud Reseller Experts
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It will be advertised on WHT, legality issues shall be faced by WHT if there will be any. And I am sure they will have plans to tackle these things with.
I mean WHT management didn't decided it blindly or it was not an overnight decision, they might have considered all pros and corns...0
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09-12-2013, 02:34 PM #134Location = SoapBox
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Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
The thing is by advertising the word "unlimited" then having in your ToS limitation is almost against advertising laws.
Take a look at this: http://www.hostingdiscussion.com/web...g-illegal.html
Here is a classic example of recent affairs: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/T...Service-109801
By all means throw the word unlimited around but if you wake up one morning with a letter saying your gonna be fined $10,000 for false advertising who's to blame?
its what cell phone providers went through with unlimited evening and weekend minutes. these variables have to be defined in the ads (ie evenings start at 6PM, etc)
its no different with ISPs or Web Hosts. You cant say "unlimited bandwidth" and then have fine print saying you are limited to 10GB. Whats really going to be fun are the limits on CPU and such hidden in terms - as no one truly understands what bandwidth # those limits translate into for lets say CPU, under "normal" usage.
the articles linked above are a perfect example of what is illegal and what isnt.
you will notice ISPs have changed as a result - ie saying unlimited bandwidth and 5/10 Mbps Up/Down (or whatever) in their ads now, vs just "unlimited" before with fine print saying otherwise
just because companies were sued for particular usage of the term unlimited, does not mean the term itself is illegal. all of those industries, selling all of those services, still use the same word - its all in the presentation, and that is what has changed
as I have said, if WHT really wants to lead the pack on this, they should enforce all shared hosting advertisers, who utilize the word "unlimited" in ANY capacity, to explicitly state the boundries of the term "unlimited" right on their ad and buy pages
eventually that is where the hosting industry will get to anywaywww.cartika.com
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09-12-2013, 02:51 PM #135Web Hosting Master
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I think the thread wouldn't have looked as bad if the supporters had just let the venters vent for a bit. The thought of WHT becoming a veritable EIG top ten list sent some of us into a tangent for a minute, mainly because we sent others here specifically to avoid that. But EIG will still be EIG after all.
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09-12-2013, 02:51 PM #136Web Hosting Master
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I would just like to point out right now nearly every provider is going to be guilty on this front. If it's not space and bandwidth then it's advertising unlimited y. The TOS of course is protecting that provider.
Unlimited databases? - Not possible OS limitations and database software
Unlimited Emails - Not possible OS limitations
No defined file limit - Not possible OS limitations
Unlimited Add-on Domains - Not possible OS and web server limitations
This does not even take into account every other hidden aspect that is not even mentioned at all. Ever see a database with 100,000 tables? How about a PHP application that attempts to include a million files. Do you specify number of concurrent connections? This could go on for pages about possible aspects that are not advertised but do have very real limits.
Anyone who thinks those don't matter. A simple script can be provided to show otherwise. It's very easy to break nearly everything. The chances of each scenario happening varies.█ Tony B. - Chief Executive Officer
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09-12-2013, 02:52 PM #137Location = SoapBox
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@DWS2006 - you're probably exactly right and thinking about it, I should have stayed out of this thread and let people vent - afterall, WHT made the change many of us have wanted, so, why get into the discussion again. point well made and lesson learned
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09-12-2013, 02:56 PM #138Web Hosting Master
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That's also a problem. There are any number of pitfalls that a new consumer will fall into. It takes pennies to "start" a "hosting company" (I'm using both of those terms very, very loosely), which means that the barrier to entry is low. So anybody can set up shop tonight, take $10 each from 20 customers for a year of service, then disappear in a month when their next invoice comes due. There's very little that WHT can do to mitigate this. I've often thought that a "preferred members" section, where only corporate users can post offers, would be a great start, but even that isn't foolproof.
Banning unlimited offers, on the other hand, is a very simple step that yields significant positive results. It's not foolproof, and it prevents some otherwise legitimate companies from advertising their services. But it goes long way towards blocking out a HUGE number of fly-by-night companies
I understand - and honestly Lisa - I have followed you for awhile and hold a good amount of respect for you. I am not trying to pick a fight, I promise▐█▌Fresh Roasted Hosting :: High-performance Harrisburg web hosting since 2012!
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09-12-2013, 02:57 PM #139Web Hosting Master
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It's not the advertising....it's about the customer and the potential of frustration which makes them leave an "unlimited" host for a better option....or sadly bounce between 7 to 8 unlimited hosts before finding a better option.
Just like anything in life, you give to someone what you deserve for yourself. If I can give or refer someone to a good option from day 1, and they can grow with that option, why give them something that will break down the road?1
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09-12-2013, 03:03 PM #140Web Hosting Master
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I've suggested a few times on options to cut down on fly-by nights. My suggestions were;
1. A host can only advertise if they have been in business for X amount of months or years
2. Or has X amount of posts
3. Or X amount customers
4. Does not have X amount of bad reviews in a 30 or 60 day period.
My previous industry had such things in place....and in place for a reason. Like only supplying resources to record labels and not directly to artists. Programs only available to established artists with 2 years of experience, and so forth.
It drastically cuts down on the fly by nights.1
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09-12-2013, 03:37 PM #141
Well said.
Interesting that no one quoted that post. However, many have bashed WHT/iNET for what they decided must be the reason for the change.
As SWR has posted, the decision to allow offers with unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers did not happen because of pressure from anyone. There was no such pressure. It's his job to make decisions that are best for the community, and while member feedback will always be important, it isn't the only factor in decision making. He asked for feedback on this topic because he wanted to know what the community thought. And finally there came a point when the only path that made sense was to allow unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers.
How can it be "honest" to allow offers of 999,999 GB of disk space and bandwidth but not allow offers that don't specify limits on disk space and bandwidth? In both instances, there are caps on usage, but in the first one, the host is lying about what the caps are. We can't draw a line at what are acceptable limits and what aren't. So, we have to either allow ridiculous limits or allow offers with no specified disk space and bandwidth limits.
I see plenty of complaints as well as plenty of praise for hosts that advertise offers with specified disk space and bandwidth limits. I expect the same will be true when unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers are also allowed. So many factors can contribute to whether a client has a good or bad experience with a web host.
Let's say for the sake of argument that more people will be unhappy with the hosting they find on WHT after we allow unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers. Those clients will be looking for new hosting, and since they already know WHT, chances are they'll come back here, do more research, and find a host they like better. That means more potential clients for the hosts already posting here.
And let's say that it turns out that unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers aren't evil and that clients who use those plans have the same average rates of satisfaction or dissatisfaction as clients do with plans that specify disk space and bandwidth limits. We would be wrong not to allow them to advertise on WHT, right?
WHT will always be a place where mom-and-pop hosts as well as larger companies can thrive. Many of the larger web hosting companies here got their start on WHT as small companies. I see no reason for this to change. Consumers look for quality, and the good reviews that quality, established hosts get will continue as long the companies are being run well. Not-so-good hosts, whether or not they offer unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers, will continue to get bad reviews and thus fewer clients. With evolving technology, disk space and bandwidth limits are not as meaningful as they once were. Good uptime, good customer service, and good value for what they pay will continue to be what people look for.█ "Do what you can, where you are, with what you have." – Theodore Roosevelt █2
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09-12-2013, 04:01 PM #142Top-Notch Hosting
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If the advertising of unlimited hosting plans is going to be allowed, I think it would be helpful if the plans were in an unlimted sub forum and perhaps reviews for such plans in a sub forum of it.
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09-12-2013, 04:02 PM #143Dennis Johnson
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The Forum Rules and Guidelines state, "Advertising is limited to one thread per 7 days posted in the Advertising Forums regarding your companies, sub-companies or associated companies. It will remain any companies' responsibility to schedule and maintain the offers your employees post in conforming with this important rule." It's something we enforce quite rigorously.
Thanks for giving the consumer the credit they deserve. As you and Jan have pointed out, they're a lot more savvy today than they were eight years ago. Smart phones really have made consumers much smarter.
Have you considered changing your username from Loon to Owl. Owls are wise, ya know. Loons aren't known so much for being so wise. But you're changing that perception too!
You're absolutely right. We won't know the affect until we know.
Exactly. Why should you tell them they can't look at any host that offers unlimited bandwidth and/or disk space?
Have you seen the complain threads about hosts around here? Are those complaints because their account was terminated or throttled because they purchased an unlimited plan that was limited? I think you'll find the bulk of the complaints are "my website doesn't work". You're right - They just want a website that works. They're not concerned over anything else.
Now I don't know who to listen to. Lisa says it's all about quality. You say unlimited isn't quality. So are you saying limited is quality?
I'd suggest reading through the forum and looking at those threads where consumers are having issues with quality and seeing if those quality concerns arose from limited or unlimited hosts.
You would not believe how much time and resources went into this decision. You'd a thunk we were drafting the Constitution or something.
And to think I waited until post #91 to reply.
I mentioned the same thing earlier. You just mentioned it better.There is no best host. There is only the host that's best for you.0
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09-12-2013, 04:04 PM #144Dennis Johnson
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09-12-2013, 04:22 PM #145Web Hosting Master
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Hence the reasoning for banning unlimited ads. Banning unlimited ads wipes out a huge slew of fly-by-night hosts. It's a simple yet effective pro-consumer strategy. Of course, this is to say nothing of the fact that "unlimited disk space" or "unlimited bandwidth" is a prima facie impossibility. It simply doesn't exist; no host can provide it. Advertising that there's no limit on either is deceptive.
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09-12-2013, 04:26 PM #146Web Hosting Master
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09-12-2013, 04:29 PM #147Web Hosting Master
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09-12-2013, 04:33 PM #148Web Hosting Master
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Legal issues aside, I'd feel a lot better about this change if hosts were required to link to their TOS / AUP in each ad, or whatever binding document establishes the terms of their "unlimited" offer, and if the post bumper was modified to say something like "Unlimited offers may include additional terms or restrictions on your usage; be sure to consult the advertiser for full details."
That still doesn't resolve the fact that it's illegal to say "UNLIMITED* DISK SPACE! * - limited to 4096 files".▐█▌Fresh Roasted Hosting :: High-performance Harrisburg web hosting since 2012!
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09-12-2013, 04:40 PM #149Location = SoapBox
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progress - and I agree - Im not sure of the "final" answer - but, I am sure its in the presentation. and I think if we all really want to protect consumers, this is where we should be focussed
That still doesn't resolve the fact that it's illegal to say "UNLIMITED* DISK SPACE! * - limited to 4096 files".
at least not anymore so then saying unlimited minutes (limited to 1440 minutes in a day)
this battle has already been fought and settled in the courts - so, my only point is, lets be careful about terms like illegal. lets all try and focus on the context and presentation - as thats really what determines legal marketing and illegal marketing tacticswww.cartika.com
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09-12-2013, 04:43 PM #150
Hey, that gives me an idea. Let's ban everyone who offers hosting on reseller accounts. That would wipe out a huge slew of fly-by-night hosts.
Of course it would be unfair to all the quality providers using reseller accounts, though. Just as banning unlimited disk space and bandwidth offers keeps out a lot of providers who run good businesses and treat clients well.
As I said, a lot of factors go into whether clients are happy or not happy with their web hosting providers.
Advertising that there's no limit on either is deceptive.
We'd still have to draw a line somewhere. And there's no way to choose a point for that line at which one side is good and the other side isn't good.
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