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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by W1H-Lee View Post
    No it does not make it right, but it's about consumer choice and having the right to choose, it is not for a minority of mainly providers to decide what is right for the majority of paying customers, it is for the customer to decide.

    You can't have it part way, I see so many jumped up hosts saying unlimited does not exist, but check your signature links and oh look I get directed to things like "unlimited mysql databases, unlimited mailboxes and so on". If unlimited does not exist then it's all or nothing, you can't say that then make exceptions, so many of you need to jump back down off your soap box.
    Yes, I see your point regarding "unlimited mysql databases, unlimited mailboxes and so on" but they never cause any problems due to those limits being limited by diskspace and bandwidth! Take away the diskspace and bandwidth limits and things will get messy, and customers will be referred to providers Terms of Service/Fair Usage Policy a lot more than they are already.

    But there are good points for and against. Only way to know whether it'll be a good thing is to actually test it. We'll all just be surmising all day long otherwise. Surely if all hell breaks lose WHT can just drop it... or maybe that won't be so easy to do...
    Last edited by HostXNow; 09-11-2013 at 05:54 PM.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon-e-mouse View Post
    Where did you get that huh?
    Was a subscriber here. Use to sell hosting long ago.

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  3. #103
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    @SoftWareRevue thanks for taking the time to reply.

    I'm the first to admit that my knee-jerk reaction to the move was one sided. I just hope that the transition allows the small and large hosts to coexist as you suggested, I joined after the ban so I can't speak to that. Like 48-14 I've told users to come here specifically to avoid the noise of the top-ten lists, etc., that makes the change a little harder to accept.

    I'm also hoping that some of the largest multi-brand providers aren't allowed to overstate their influence via their separate-but-the-same companies. It's bad enough that they successfully use this tactic to repeatedly hoodwink unsuspecting users, it would be terrible if they were aloud to do the same here.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    I'm also hoping that some of the largest multi-brand providers aren't allowed to overstate their influence via their separate-but-the-same companies. It's bad enough that they successfully use this tactic to repeatedly hoodwink unsuspecting users, it would be terrible if they were aloud to do the same here.
    Yes, it would be very annoying is the Ad section's became filled with Ads from what is basically the same company. Better buy up those sticky spots now lol.

    And BTW, a simple "EIG Unlimited" search brings up a lot of threads in regards to those recommending to stay away and showing the truth of what "Unlimited" actually means.

    Which brings up a good point...I wonder if any of these big providers would even dare to start advertising here due to the already large group of "haters" (for EIG at least). WHT might just remove the ban on them, but that doesn't mean they will come. It would be like advertising "Abortion" services on a Mormon Forum (no offense to any Mormons, but it just made the perfect example, and not that I am either pro or against choice...let's just leave it there lol).
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by HostXNow View Post
    Yes, I see your point regarding "unlimited mysql databases, unlimited mailboxes and so on" but they never cause any problems due to those limits being limited by diskspace and bandwidth!
    Truth be told, these limits aren't really affected by bandwidth. Disk space, yes, absolutely. Bandwidth, not so much.

    So, it basically boils down to disk space. Bandwidth has been 'unmetered' for some time, and there's really no limit there, except that 100m or 10m limit placed by your provider.

    Disk space, however can never, ever be 'unlimited'. It is just impossible, physically. So, what the change here is doing is encouraging fraudulent advertising, as that is what it is. Like I said, nobody's going to trust WHT for this kind of stuff again.

    The market hasn't changed that much, this argument keeps coming up, and someone basically just got enough influence to sway things over.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    Same as eight years ago, we talked a lot before someone had to make a decision. I made it then. I take full responsibility for this one now.

    See? You can't just stay away. You gotta check out WHT every day!

    Back in the day, new and/or small limited hosts advertised in the Advertising forums on WHT right next door to unlimited hosts. All I saw (small or large) was providers growing.

    There are other ways to differentiate yourself other than disk space and bandwidth.

    Back in the day, a lot of things were fine and dandy.

    If I bring my previous music career into the argument, back in the day there was a lot of quality. There were even good and bad that worked side by side. I'm not going to write about the state of whatever it's in now considering anything good has been kicked to the curb.

    Back to hosting. 8 years ago, HostGator sold limits on their shared accounts and ate the competition. The competition ate them.

    To differentiate between hosts on here and the ones already doing unlimited, advertising $$$$$$. I've not seen any hosts on here with SuperBowl commercials, youtube commercials, or ads all over the transit system.

    No matter how good a marketing budget or website is for a host on here, if those other hosts were to advertise on here, it would be over. People will buy hosting from a company with naked women and a race car. Nothing to do with hosting. People will listen to an artist who grew up in the richest part of the city talking about a hard life...and people will think this person is a god. Hard life????? Dust on the rims of their parents $70,000 vehicles. Not cutting the grass in their 2.5 million dollar home. What a hard life.
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  7. #107
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    I've tried to catch up on this thread, but I admit I didn't read all 8 pages thoroughly. My apologies if my point is already covered elsewhere. It sounds like the decision has already been made, so my posting here may be moot, but I have to vent:

    The big advantage to WHT's ban on unlimited was protection of less-educated consumers, IMHO. Those of us who have been around the block understand that there is no such thing as "unlimited" disk space, and that there will be limitations buried in the fine print of any host offering such. But to a new customer coming to WHT for help, this may not be apparent. They may launch straight to the "hosting offers" forum, see HereTodayGoneTomorrowHost offering "unlimited everything" for $10 / year, jump on it, and return three months later -- at the end of summer -- to post that their host just up and disappeared.

    There are those who will say "heh, should've read the fine print sucker, you got what you deserved". They're always out there and can't be helped.

    I say let's protect consumers from this sort of thing. It's the same logic that goes into consumer protection laws -- especially those that prohibit a company from making an offer in an ad, then burying details in the fine print that substantially limit or alter that offer.

    At the same time, I'm not sure what WHT's reference to "aligning with the industry" is here. You've stated that money isn't at hand, and this certainly isn't an ethics-based decision (at least, not in favor of the consumer). So what are we missing?

    We as a company are at a point in growth where we can afford to set up the infrastructure to handle some unlimited options in shared and VPS. Some hosts mitigate their unlimited offers with massive infrastructure, we'd mitigate it by our relatively (to GoDaddy et al) slow growth. If the day comes when that's what it takes to be competitive, we'll consider it. But until then, it's a repugnant idea.

    TL/DR: I'm trying to imagine what circumstances came along that made WHT say "holy cow guys, we really need to allow unlimited advertising if we're going to continue to be an effective part of the community".
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon-e-mouse View Post
    Give the average Joe some credit for having a brain.
    I wanted to address this quote specifically.

    When it comes to technical matters, yes -- consumer awareness is at an all-time high. Compared to 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago, consumers are not only far more tech-savvy with their daily purchasing, but they also know how and where to seek advice when they leave their comfort zone.

    Web hosting seems to be a completely different beast. Normally intelligent, well-educated folks are completely floored by cPanel, or how to set up DNS, or how to migrate their website from one host to another, or the difference between SSL vendors, or what a "megabit" is, and so on. We're happy to help them out -- in fact we've made a very successful business catering to exactly those people -- but they aren't web-hosting-savvy. The level of expertise that people have developed over smartphones and USING websites has not translated to web hosting, simply because for many people it's a "fire and forget" deal. They set it up once, then never touch it (just look at how many WordPress sites get compromised on a regular basis). Whereas when it comes to a smartphone or their favorite website, they're actually using those on a daily basis and become quite familiar.
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  9. #109
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    Here is my take on it..

    When we buy something, that's important to us, don't we always research it before we buy it? We read the reviews, go on YouTube and watch video reviews (even sometimes unboxing videos lol!!), read up on the specs, what the critics say, research all the components etc. until the day we buy it, and then some more until it's delivered.

    When we want to stay at a hotel in a foreign country, I find myself looking on Trip Advisor, Google street view of where the hotel is and scope places out, read up reviews on various websites (and often jumping straight onto the negative ones first).. So much research into everything we do and buy these days..

    What makes web hosting the exception? You have price comparison websites overbooking hotels and you only find out when it comes to checking in, airlines overbooking seats, cell phone providers that are unable to cope with the amount they have sold when it hits midnight on New Years. Despite that, some of us are still with our cell phone providers, may sometimes use the same airlines and hotels if we have to.

    My point is, the average consumer is now 10x smarter than the most educated consumer 10 years ago. Technology has allowed us to access so much information at nearly any time within seconds. We research for the best price before we buy, we research the product, the vendor and even the courier that's going to deliver it.

    What makes everyone somehow assume that web hosting customers are able to do all of the above for every other industry but somehow throw caution to the wind and lose the ability to research when it comes to purchasing web hosting?

    Customers should be given a lot more credit, and as a web hosting customer, it's a bit insulting to think I wouldn't do my research before signing up with a company and I especially don't lose the ability to research when it comes to web hosting. You web hosts are researched more thoroughly than you think.

    All that aside surely a website wanting to appeal to a wider audience is good for web hosts isn't it? Web hosts that don't really or can't advertise here and hence may not be discussed as much as they would be discussed - will be. And let's face it, it's those hosts that are offering unlimited and the likes of EIG and UK2 that have the lions share of customers. Would it really be so bad if WHT got more of those visitors and in turn, the greater the audience that can be educated on unlimited hosting?

    People come to WebHostingTalk to research, not to buy anything. So you can be sure that if someone is going to sign up to an unlimited host, regardless if they are advertising here or not, the chances of that person signing up to an unlimited hosts are pretty much the same. Since they came here to research, they're going to read the good and the bad and see comments about the unlimited stuff as well.

    And there will always be the crowd that will sign up despite all logic telling him/her not to and the crowd that wants to be a loyal customer and is looking for quality over quantity.

    Fact is, a lot of people have already got a shortlist of hosts and know about unlimited hosts before they even get to WebHostingTalk. Probably the first thing they do is type "web hosting" in Google and that will bring up a hell of a lot of unlimited, and EIG hosts. Should we turn around and blame Google for allowing them to index unlimited hosts? Do you think they would even ask you for your opinion before going ahead with it?

    anon-e-mouse said we should give the consumer more credit and that was shot down pretty fast and dismissed. That wasn't fair. The average consumer deserves a lot more credit and hosts would be foolish to think the average consumer doesn't research everything to death before signing up.
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  10. #110
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    @sam9000, I don't think you're an average buyer. Some users definitely shop the way you do, but an awful lot just go to the store and pick from the selection offered, basing their choices largely on price and aethstetics. Hosting is purchased by the general buyer in much the same way. A pretty site with a nice price and plenty of buzz words is all that's needed (I've seen hosts use 4G as a hosting buzz word, LOL).

    That's not to say it's WHT's job to educate or protect these buyers. And the truth of the matter is that a lot of these customers will be happy with hosting service you or I would cancel in an instant. Plus, 99% of them will probably never visit WHT to begin with, making the unlimited/limited arguments here moot.
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  11. #111
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    There's no such things as unlimited. It doesn't matter where it appears - unlimited subdomains are just as impossible as unlimited disk space.

    However, if the two conditions are met:
    - "unmetered" or "unrestricted" are used to define the resources quota
    - link to documents, where actual limits are explained (ToS/whatever) is explicitly provided in ad

    then the mentioned offers won't look so unrealistic.

    Otherwise, it's indeed misinformation and lie: if I may not store 1TB of data on "unlimited" plan, why it's called unlimited?

    I know that marketeers use their own language, where "download" means in fact "buy" and so on, but I suppose ads on WHT should be written in language matching reality.
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  12. #112
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    I'm not going to jump in to the debate about whether or not I feel this is right, or whether or not I feel unlimited hosting is right... enough has been said about that in this discussion and previous discussions. Now that the decision has been made to allow these types of offers, if we as community members have an issue with that, instead of trying to overturn the decision with our "This is awful" argument, how about we propose some solutions that aren't just "Don't do it!"? Here's a solution that Paul (the_pm) made earlier in this thread (of which I support) and one more addition that I'd like to see:

    1. Paul said, and I'm sure he'll correct me if I misinterpreted his post... if we're going to allow these types of posts, let's make sure we do so by forcing them to display the real limit, as displayed in their T&C's. A lot of comparisons supporting this move have referenced cell phone plans. Unlimited text messages, but in the T&C's it states a 3,000 cap, for example. That is great, but I guarantee you that should the company advertise that plan (in a print ad, on tv, on radio etc), they have to clearly state somewhere what the real limit is. Usually, this will be found in tiny text at the bottom of an advert. By not requiring advertisers to do this, we're providing them a pinnacle from which to break laws. So let's require them to do it.

    2. The above solves the issue of misleading customers. I hope this second solution solves the issue of educating our members... I'd like to see iNet put their dev's to work in adding a checkbox option to advertising threads, titled "Does your advert include unlimited disk space and/or bandwidth". If they check "yes", when a person goes to visit that thread I'd like to see them first hit a page that explains, in one paragraph, that the following advert includes unlimited disk space and/or bandwidth and why this may be an issue for the member. We educate them before they even get to the advert, and for those that decide to check "no" when they should have checked "yes", the mods deal with it appropriately (throwing the thread?). Simple.
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  13. #113
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    Jamie - +1 to both of those suggestions.

    I've noticed the recent addition of an automated comment below the opening post in certain forum groups. Items for sale come with a health warning that you should check carefully etc. A very easy suggestion would be a standard, but short, paragraph that goes into every thread in the offers section, warning that other limits than disk space may apply, that hosts are required to declare such limits in their post (and inviting a "report" if this is missed), and reminding that special DD is required for offers claiming unlimited space.

    Putting this into every thread also helps clients who find the "1 TB for $5" kind of offers. We wouldn't want the host ticking "no" to unlimited, and thereby avoiding having to declare the true limits.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    Normally intelligent, well-educated folks are completely floored by cPanel, or how to set up DNS, or how to migrate their website from one host to another, or the difference between SSL vendors, or what a "megabit" is, and so on.
    As you and I and everyone else on this forum once was.

    So if we could all learn it, why can't the majority of average users?
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Harrop View Post
    some good stuff
    I couldn't agree more on both points, honestly. Users should be educated on what these limits are and what they're getting into.

    Tell a 'normal person', they're getting unlimited disk space, and they'll be all over the moon. They'll believe it, because, well, they just don't know any better.

    Tell that 'normal person' that they're limited to a certain number of inodes, and they'll be all questioning, they'll be wondering just what the hell they're dealing with and rightly so. Said 'normal person' shouldn't have to care about inodes. I mean, they got 'unlimited' web hosting, right? Just like the average VPS owner shouldn't care about server management, because hey, they're "fully managed", right?

    Truth be told, it is the responsibility of WHT and it's admins, moderators, and guides to ensure that practices and scams like this aren't allowed to exist here. Adding a warning is good, but, really, do you think that's going to help much? Most people just skim over stuff like that, they get accustomed to seeing it, much like the warnings already out there in the ad threads that just detract from sellers, making them all look bad and evil.
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  16. #116
    simple fact remains that limitations in shared hosting are nothing to do with disk/bandwidth for the most part - the limits are physical server resource limits - and every provider, even those offering the smallest fixed plans, have such limits within their TOS

    if you want my opinion (and probably no one does ) - let everyone sell whatever they want, but, enforce a policy where server limits (which ultimately limit usage) are advertised right on the buy page. why list disk and bandwidth when they dont actually matter? list CPU, RAM, IO, INODE limits or whatever in place of disk, or concurrently with, bandwidth, # of domains, etc...

    I mean why pretend your offering of 10GB bandwidth is somehow morally better then someone selling unlimited bandwidth - when your TOS has a CPU restriction of a fraction of a Ghz, while the unlimited host may be providing a full Ghz CPU (just an example) and is advertising it right on their buy page.. which scenario is actually worse and which scenario is actually more confusing and misleading to the consumer?

    the single most confusing thing for the average consumer is understanding they need to buy more server resources. this can happen even if they are using 10GB of bandwidth. Trying to explain to the average customer why their wordpress module they installed needs to be removed or they need to upgrade, when they are only using 5 GB bandwidth is the challenge - and whether your plan says 10GB or unlimited doesnt change this at all

    the entire world has moved towards a resource model - bandwidth and disk hardly matter anymore. cheers to WHT for finally catching up with this - better late then never
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  17. #117
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    I actually think that we as a community have an opportunity with this to ensure your average joe consumer is better informed, not the opposite as many are suggesting.

    Right now, if somebody comes here looking for an unlimited plan and doesn't find one in the ad forums, they are just going to find one elsewhere. Wherever that is, it's unlikely to give them any indication that the offer isn't exactly what it says on the tin, and that there are specific limits (other than the TOS, which we know nobody reads). If they do get burned that's when they probably come back here and complain. Yes we often do a good job of educating them at that point in whatever thread they create, but it's after the fact. Their opinion of this industry as a whole is already set.

    This change is just WHT accepting the fact that unlimited plans are out there, people are buying them and they are probably not going away. If we welcome those consumers then we have the opportunity to educate and inform them before they buy - either within the thread (we've already started that with the 'notice to consumers'), through announcements or otherwise - push them away to find an unlimited plan somewhere else then we can only sit and wait for the 'xyzhost is a scam threads' to appear. In the meantime, plenty more people are out there clicking 'buy now' without a clue that an offer might not be exactly as it says.

    We can't pretend something isn't a big part of this industry when it is, but we can say 'here it is if that's what you're after .. and here's what we think you should know before you buy'
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  18. #118
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    @cartika-andrew and @Loon, well said and definitely good food for thought.

    Hopefully the change will bring new life to WHT and set the stage for more debates like this one, something that has faded from the forum in recent years. Maybe too, those of us (me included) that have rallied against the "unlimited" model will be exposed to better "unlimited" hosts than what we're used to seeing, we may even find we've been supporting the wrong hosts all along.

    Even the craziest and most stubborn users will come around soon enough.
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  19. #119
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    No such thing as an unlimited hardware or unlimited CPU or anything unlimited, I dare say in the future someone might get done for claiming unlimited because am sure it's against marketing laws. The day WHT turns unlimited is the day this forum will let again fall to pieces just like this summer every offer in the offers section will be "unlimited, unlimited, unlimited" in fact WHT will be condoning the unlimited bandwagon.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon-e-mouse View Post
    As you and I and everyone else on this forum once was. So if we could all learn it, why can't the majority of average users?
    They can and will -- by getting burned by unlimited hosting. Some will say "heh, that's too bad, should've read the fine print", but I say "let's ban impossible offers in the first place".

    Additionally, the big difference between people the average consumer and like you and I is that you and I do this every day. It's been my experience that the vast majority of web hosting customers don't care about the underpinnings of their hosts or the finer points of what an inode is, they just want their website to work. Exposing them to Ripoff Inc's "$1 Unlimited" hosting is doing them a grave disservice.
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    ...WHT has always been a great resource for consumers,...
    I think the above will become WHT *was* always a great resource for consumers,...

    IMO, WHT will attract a raft of unlimited plans advertised followed by the inevitable race to the bottom on price.
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  22. #122
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    Guys one thing?
    If decision has already been made, what is this long discussion for?

    I think we should let the day come (As we don't have any option, WHT management has taken the decision ) and see how much this "unlimited" word is being dragged here at WHT...
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakher View Post
    Guys one thing?
    If decision has already been made, what is this long discussion for?

    I think we should let the day come (As we don't have any option, WHT management has taken the decision ) and see how much this "unlimited" word is being dragged here at WHT...
    The thing is by advertising the word "unlimited" then having in your ToS limitation is almost against advertising laws.

    Take a look at this: http://www.hostingdiscussion.com/web...g-illegal.html

    Here is a classic example of recent affairs: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/T...Service-109801

    By all means throw the word unlimited around but if you wake up one morning with a letter saying your gonna be fined $10,000 for false advertising who's to blame?
    Last edited by Server Management; 09-12-2013 at 10:09 AM.
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    The thing is by advertising the word "unlimited" then having in your ToS limitation is almost against advertising laws.
    Not "almost". It is. Making an offer and then substantially limiting that offer in your terms is against US law (15 U.S.C. 41 and others). Whether it's web hosting or wireless service or car dealerships, you can't offer UNLIMITED DISK SPACE* (* - limited to 30 GB). Adding contradictory fine print does not meet the criteria for disclosure of terms and conditions. It needs to be clearly broadcast in each and every advertisement. In other words:

    Legal: "We don't have any pre-established limits on how much disk space you can use, but we will only allow you to create 8192 files"
    Illegal: "You get unlimited* disk space!" Fine print under ad: "* Disk space is limited to 300 GB"

    What's disappointing here is that WHT has chosen to move away from helping to protect the consumer for reasons that aren't readily apparent.
    Last edited by FRH Lisa; 09-12-2013 at 10:34 AM.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakher View Post
    If decision has already been made, what is this long discussion for?
    We're providing feedback on their decision. They may decide to change their stance based on their users' feedback, or they may not -- that's up to them. But until then, this thread is exploring the very topic they brought up.
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