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09-11-2013, 11:41 AM #76Web Hosting Master
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The way SWR put it to me: "You're talking about one poll."
Implying that this one poll meant nothing, and the views of the WHT users mean nothing to iNet.
Whats the point in asking the users of the forum on their view of a possible policy change if you are just going to discard it anyway. Its clear that SWR always wanted to allow unlimited offers (he voted yes) and he was intent on getting his own way regardless of what the community wants.
I am disgusted and fuming.Last edited by Matthew_B; 09-11-2013 at 11:53 AM.
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09-11-2013, 12:07 PM #77Web Hosting Master
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@LV-Matt I share your disappointment. For me not so much because of poll results or even the unlimited offers themselves (what's the difference between an unlimited offer and 1TB shared offer?). More so because this could change the feel of the forum (less Mom & Pop, more Corporate Mouthpieces).
I too think that the unliminted disk and bandwidth offers are more dishonest than unlimited feature offers, one is an unlimited feature contained within obvious boundaries while the other has no limits at face value. But it's the nature of the general hosting market and WHT feels that aligning themselves with that market is a move forward.
My only question is does the average buyer that purchases hosting from Godaddy, 1and1 or BlueHost ever Talk Web Hosting? (excluding those that post 1 post to vent when they realize they've been had) I see this as an enthusiasts forum, therefore I'm not sure why the push to align with the general market.
Sure the larger hosts here are pushing for this, but in what way do they feel this change is going to help them? Sure they can switch to offer unlimited, but they can do that already. What difference does posting or not posting ads on WHT matter in the scheme of things when the competition is spending millions of dollars on advertising campaigns across every medium? I honestly think if a hosts feels that they can't enter the unlimited market without ads in the WHT offers section, they're too small to compete in that market in the first place (at least in any meaningful way). A provider hosting 50 or 60 thousand domains might seem big on WHT but they are virtual nobodies in comparison to providers hosting 2 or 3 million domains. Time will tell how this plays out.
At any rate it should add new life to the forum, we'll see if its of the variety that WHT is anticipating or if it rolls the way a lot of us feel it will. Grab the popcorn.Last edited by DWS2006; 09-11-2013 at 12:19 PM.
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09-11-2013, 01:01 PM #78Mostly Retired!
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Matt,
I noticed you've added 'fuming' to your post. I've covered quite a few emotions during this circus, and I'm finding myself a little angry, too. After a decade at WHT I went with the premium subscription. Two days after that I got my very first infraction (turned out to be an honest mistake, I responded to the wrong thread...communicated with Bear, no more problems) and the day after that, realized that there wasn't really much going on in the Premium area. Didn't care so much about it as I wasn't upgrading my account for the advertising perks.
For a brief period last night, I considered ordering another server from my provider, out-of-pocket, finding someone else willing to match that so we'd have a small web cluster, bring in some respected industry colleagues for the sysadmin side, and creating a spin-off where we, the devout 56%ers, could practice our trade & master our craft in an environment where input is truly important and considered, rather than being tricked into thinking that our opinions matter.
I've always appreciated the community feel of WHT. I don't necessarily see it as a place where "the competition" congregates. I still think of it as a community of (generally) intelligent, experienced colleagues with a genuine desire to further their business or share new industry developments...basically, in it for the passion, not the drama.
Truthfully, I don't know if I can watch as WHT brings the drama and sophomoric arguments of LET to a community founded on influence and prestige.
I will also say, that I don't know Dennis (SWR), he doesn't really know me, we've communicated maybe 5 times total, and I'm in no position to point fingers at any one person until the responsible parties get down to brass tacks and lay it all out...but somebody over there really screwed the pooch with this one.
With what I've read about ad revenue, members canceling corporate subscriptions, & premium members planning not to renew next time around, I have a feeling that whomever's watching their bottom line may find themselves only breaking even, but at the expense of 56% of their members.
There's a "freeWHT" ... why can't we have an UnlimitedHostingTalk.com, or some such crap, where they do their thing and leave the rest of us alone. FatWallet has plenty of Go Daddy promo codes for $1.00 registration. Let GD host it, too. That way even the members get what they pay for.
I've got to get back to the technical forums. Obviously we're all wasting our breath at this point.Last edited by Johnny Cache; 09-11-2013 at 01:04 PM.
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09-11-2013, 01:01 PM #79Disabled
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Well I'm going to sit back and see what happens, maybe good things come out of it, WHT get's more popular. However there is going to be more hosts advertising unlimited, decent hosts get pulled back due to people using them. People coming back and writing bad reviews because they never got "unlimited", more complaints.
But we're just members, they did have a thread in Premium for a while. So who knows, only time will tell.0
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09-11-2013, 02:01 PM #80Retired Moderator
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OK - First an off-topic, purely hypothetical question. They say everyone has their price. If EIG used some of their hoped-for IPO cash to offer to buy iNET Interactive - what price would the current owners accept? That would be a real coup for EIG in their wish to control / own all the hosts that come highly recommended in sites that consumers are likely to trust.
Now back on topic. I can't quite decide what to make of this. On the one hand, I agree absolutely with this:
On the other hand, we're already seeing hosts becoming savvy to the fact that some consumers don't trust "unlimited", or becoming savvy to the fact that WHT imposes a restriction on advertising such plans. They get round it, by offering 10 GB for $5 per month, or 500 GB for $7. Seriously - 500 GB? I think I've seen offers into the TB for shared hosting, but can't remember where.
There's something inconsistent about allowing those adverts, without requiring the hosts to state the real limits they use, but not allowing the label "unlimited". The latter is really no more honest than the former.
Inconsistent. But I'm not persuaded that this latest change is the way to resolve that inconsistency.Not as active on WHT as I used to be, but still drop in and receive email notifications from here.
My personal blog site: https://www.oakleys.org.uk/blog0
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09-11-2013, 02:04 PM #81Web Hosting Master
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Yet again all I see are providers complaining, as I have said every year this comes up it's about the end user not the provider's views at the end of the day.
Why should a minority of providers (and that is what it boils down to) decide what I or any other customer should or should not be allowed to consider/purchase?
These days an end user does not want to be bothered with the like of "will 1GB be enough or should I pay for 5GB". You and I know that for the majority 1GB is often far too much but the end user does not know that and does not care. They just want a place to host their site. And that is really why the unlimited hosts are taking away a lot of your business.
Now I am not saying they are all good and it's going to take time to spot the good/better ones once they advertise, however it is also consumer choice as to how you research and try to find the right one for you, not just bitch and complain when all you got was a bad one, but that will happen anyway as it already does.
This is not a market changing, dummy spitting event like some of seem to be treating it. The bulk of customers will hardly use any resource, they just think they will.
Of course abuse is going to be an issue but that's the providers issue not the end user. The only thing changing for most is that disk space will be listed as "unlimited" and for most this will have the caveat "not for storage, storing all your films, etc.."
Ultimately, if the decision is that bad then it will all come crashing down and you can all open a thread titled "Unlimited - I told you so".5
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09-11-2013, 02:08 PM #82Retired Moderator
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On the other hand, we're already seeing hosts becoming savvy to the fact that some consumers don't trust "unlimited", or becoming savvy to the fact that WHT imposes a restriction on advertising such plans. They get round it, by offering 10 GB for $5 per month, or 500 GB for $7. Seriously - 500 GB? I think I've seen offers into the TB for shared hosting, but can't remember where.Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design0
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09-11-2013, 02:25 PM #83Retired Moderator
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And I think that would be precisely the way to resolve this. It solves the instability / inconsistency of what we (used to) have, but without allowing dishonest and incomplete claims in advertising.
So: If >X inodes means you don't get backed up, you say so, etc.
But that's now a parallel universe from the one we are going to be in.Not as active on WHT as I used to be, but still drop in and receive email notifications from here.
My personal blog site: https://www.oakleys.org.uk/blog0
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09-11-2013, 02:35 PM #84Web Hosting Master
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I agree and really feel this is wrong. Technically their is not such thing as even unlimited sub domains their is a limit before something will stop working on the server. Why unmetered is fine, but unlimited allowed simply to me lowers the validity of WHT adds to consumers in the long run.
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09-11-2013, 02:36 PM #85Retired Moderator
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But that's now a parallel universe from the one we are going to be in.Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design1
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09-11-2013, 02:58 PM #86Retired Moderator
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Maybe you're right. It's possible that the views in this thread could trigger a rethink. The OP of this thread does sound like things are passed the stage of community consultation, though. We'll see.
Not as active on WHT as I used to be, but still drop in and receive email notifications from here.
My personal blog site: https://www.oakleys.org.uk/blog0
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09-11-2013, 03:20 PM #87
So soon it will just be WHT letting consumers new to hosting learn the hard way, which is probably not necessarily a bad thing... maybe short term, but long term it might actually benefit hosts offering "limited" plans once consumers realise how much better the service is when on a web hosting plan with realistic limits...
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09-11-2013, 03:23 PM #88Web Hosting Master
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Seems like it's a done deal. What's funnier than the rule change is members in support of the move trying to vilify any user that expresses reservations about the change. I must admit though, "unlimited" is already improving WHT's entertainment value.
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09-11-2013, 03:31 PM #89Web Hosting Master
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09-11-2013, 03:31 PM #90Web Hosting Master
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That's a possibility!
This could be a good thing that revitalizes the community or in a year WHT could be just a glorified top ten list (okay that's extreme ).
Short term I can see this affecting some of the smaller hosts (the really small ones and the reseller/vps providers that host them). It would be difficult to sell unlimited on a reseller account or vps, though I'm sure many will try. I imagine we'll see some good posts soon.0
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09-11-2013, 03:35 PM #91Aspiring Evangelist
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09-11-2013, 04:33 PM #92Web Hosting Master
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You come from the same country as me so you will be fully aware of the legalities in advertising and also the unfair contracts act
lets say the advert was for a Ferrari and you were supplied a Lada because hidden in the contract was a clause saying in the event of no stock they could supply what they wanted.
A strong analogy maybe but whats the difference between that and offering something that is not possible and providing something less through a FUP clause in the terms. In my books nothing!! its false advertising plain and simple, just another area where the hosting industry thinks it is different from any other commercial venture.
Even FUP's are designed to con the average user, how many end users know what an inode is? This is a very dirty industry full of half truths kiddie "hosts" and by allowing misleading advertising gimmicks its doing nothing to clean itself up.Nil illegitimi carborundum
I'm getting old and don't do drugs. I get the same effect just standing up fast.0
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09-11-2013, 04:40 PM #93Web Hosting Master
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My mobile phone provider states I get "free unlimited texts" each month.
But the small print states it's capped at 3,000 and under the guise of "fair usage", seems to be ok for them.
My point is that things like this are everywhere in everyday life.2
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09-11-2013, 04:53 PM #94
Ugh, really?
This scam is just going to end up being problematic, in more ways than one.
So much for people trusting ANYTHING on this site again.Tom Whiting, WHMCS Guru extraordinaire
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09-11-2013, 04:55 PM #95
Doesn't make it right or mean everyone else should also copy the unethical bad habits.
Drug dealers and the like make far more than us small web hosts do, doesn't mean we should all go to the darkside just because someone else is doing it and are better off "short-term" lolHostXNow - Shared Web Hosting | Semi Dedicated Hosting | Enterprise Reseller Hosting | VPS Hosting0
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09-11-2013, 05:03 PM #96Web Hosting Master
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No it does not make it right, but it's about consumer choice and having the right to choose, it is not for a minority of mainly providers to decide what is right for the majority of paying customers, it is for the customer to decide.
You can't have it part way, I see so many jumped up hosts saying unlimited does not exist, but check your signature links and oh look I get directed to things like "unlimited mysql databases, unlimited mailboxes and so on". If unlimited does not exist then it's all or nothing, you can't say that then make exceptions, so many of you need to jump back down off your soap box.3
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09-11-2013, 05:04 PM #97Web Hosting Master
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On WHT, smaller providers can still be those that provide service to thousands of customers like Stablehost, KnownHost, or WiredTree. Sidenote...I haven't dealt with Stable or Known, so I'm making an assumption from what I have read about them and their recommomdations. But to compare Known or Stable's customer base to HG or GoDaddy, there still a "smaller" host.
So to stay on the point with your statement, and to also throw in a designers point of view, and throw WordPress in with that statement....the unlimited hosts are garbage for the end user.
From day 1 when a customer signs up there told unlimited. Every day they wake up thinking "I never have to worry, it's unlimited". We fault them for not checking the TOS, but that's the usual argument of it hidden, this and that.
Fast Forward to a customer with successful visitors or even a website with a small amount of visitors on the same server;
- my site is down
- I can't connect to my database
- my site is slow
- my emails won't load
- I've been migrated for 90 hours and have lost my site, my visitors, and support will not reply
- other constant complaints
All from the bigger hosts with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Now enter the smaller hosts, from myself up to the hosts I mentioned before.
1. I've never seen a flood of constant complaints from KnownHost customers
2. I've never seen a flood of constant complaints from StableHost customers
3. Some of my clients and customers are going 6-7 years, no complaints
4. No complaints from other reputable hosts on here.
About 2 weeks ago, someone came on WHT complaining about RamNode. Within minutes everyone in the thread turned against the OP. Why??? Because RamNode provides quality and EVERYONE on here knows it.
So if the influence of 48-14, KnownHost, StableHost, WiredTree, BigBrainGlobal, RamNode, and other reputable hosts on here do not count or have any say on what happens, then as others have mentioned, what was the point of a poll. What's the point of some form of "safe haven" from the mess that's out there.
Let's also look at another issue from the end user.....EIG buyouts....the effects on the customer and the staff. My first hand experience was with Netfirms. It was nasty. I've mentioned my story before, so let's focus on the customers that either lost everything or were fortunate to run to BlueHost or HostMonster and such, only to go through the same thing. Eventually everyone ran to HostGator....everyone. Now everyone at HostGator is screwed. Now what??????? How is aligning with any type of corporation known to mess things up and fire people a good thing???? Of course it all comes down to $$$$ so anything that the good people on here says will not matter. I've personally stopped my unlimited rants because it was a waste of time. I still get sign-ups on the merit of providing good service and advice. If I have to compete with an unlimited host on here, what't the point of focusing on the hosting side of the business. What would be the point of helping someone hoping they become a customer. What would be the point of recommendations. Again, not a rant as a host, but from a customer who ends up being on the messy end of the stick through all of this. The customers whose told to use rsync to migrate an account because backups have been disabled...wait...they just found out about rsync 20 seconds ago and never heard of ssh or sftp.
Just like we all said a year ago when EIG bought HG, the mess will hit the fans. They delayed the inevitable, but sure enough, than fans are very very messy at the moment. What will become of WHT?
That would be nice, but it's one those 50/50 situations. In the last 7 years, I've seen 3 industries completely fall apart due to these same types of actions. The more you reverse-educate the population with a concept driven by marketing and not quality, the less chances you have to recover. It also leads to the other 50/50 situation of people becoming really pissed off that all the good options are gone, OR they become DIY hosts. How many times in life do you get upset with an option and say why don't I just do it myself. Save on costs, and save on being told lies.2
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09-11-2013, 05:12 PM #98Dennis Johnson
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I'm a little late to the party. But I'll try to answer every question directed towards me.
Please excuse me if this post gets too long for you, I'm just going through and multi-quoting posts I've been asked to respond to.Just one answer; no.
The thread is about the direction of WHT 2013 and beyond. If one chooses to focus on one aspect of that, that's their choice. But we're not re-naming the thread.
That would be just that - an assumption. The fact is that iNET turns away advertisers on a regular basis because there's only so much inventory.
I don't think it'll hurt mom and pop. Before unlimited disk space and bandwidth were banned, mom and pop were in the Advertising forums right along side unlimited. They didn't seem to have a problem differentiating themselves by something other than bandwidth and diskspace. When I started hosting in 2001, I closely considered offering unlimited. But I stuck with strict limit offers. Of course, there were terms in my TOS that limited those limits too. A rogue php script --- a database out of control --- etc. Every host should have some fine print in their TOS. You can't possibly fit everything into a 353x780 box.
As long as they're not in the Advertising forums, have at it.
Not representing the industry we're supposed to be representing is the highest degree of irresponsibility I've allowed to happen.
This will be a forum-wide change.
I suppose if I said I've seen similar threads, I'd have to go find them first. But without searching for them, can you honestly say you've never seen anyone come here fuming because he sent too many emails, or that his host claimed his db slowed the server, or a mailing list was looping and clogging all the pipes? But you're basically correct - there are good hosts and there are not-so-good hosts.
You know I like to bet. So I'm in (if the numbers are right)!
Nobody paid anything.
Everyone's welcome to their opinion. Opinions are welcomed in the Main and Other WHT forums.What about all of the threads about EIG and the others that offer these services?Will bad mouthing the big money makers become a "Suspendable" offense?
Wouldn't we then have to create separate forums for 1-10GB, 10-50GB, 500-5000GB, 50000-1000000GB, etc? I understand what you're saying. I just don't see a way to do it fairly.
WHT is not endorsing or embracing the removal of an eight year old rule. We are not taking away the principled stand we've always taken, because it hasn't always been our stand.
We can still voice our opinion on unlimited. You can still tell consumers what you think of it. The only thing we're changing is a rule I implemented eight years ago.
Let's see what the next eight years bring!
We have talked with tons of providers, members, consumers, marketers, and anyone else we could think of on this topic. When discussions and polls come out pretty much 50/50, someone has to make a decision. Even if a poll is 60/40, it must be weighed by taking into account those that participated.
Same as eight years ago, we talked a lot before someone had to make a decision. I made it then. I take full responsibility for this one now.
See? You can't just stay away. You gotta check out WHT every day!
Back in the day, new and/or small limited hosts advertised in the Advertising forums on WHT right next door to unlimited hosts. All I saw (small or large) was providers growing.
There are other ways to differentiate yourself other than disk space and bandwidth.
Exactly! What makes you a better host? It certainly isn't measured in disk space and bandwidth, is it?
Sure am glad we got that like button. I suppose it's a Thumbs Up! button. All I know is I'm clicking it for your post!
"My opinion is the only opinion that matters". (anyone know where that quote's from?)
Maybe. Maybe not. All we can do is see what happens. If anything comes up, we'll deal with it then.There is no best host. There is only the host that's best for you.2
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09-11-2013, 05:14 PM #99Disabled
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100% Agree which is why I'm worried about my domain customers... Now EIG are on the way to buy out Directi. I've contacted my Account Manager and stated I want to know in advanced to move out. We don't like EIG and we know what happens when they buy out.
The move everyone to their servers in their Datacenter... What happened before? It was all on the quiet and they had downtime. For Hours and hours... http://mashable.com/2013/08/02/bluehost-down/0
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09-11-2013, 05:16 PM #100Retired Moderator
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Originally Posted by softwarerevueStudio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design0
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