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09-10-2013, 09:22 AM #1Dennis Johnson
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WHT 2013 [Up to, and including, unlimited offers]
The following is taken from today's WHT Insider:
Thanks for your understanding as we got the WHT Insider back onto its publishing schedule two weeks ago. WHT is also getting back where it belongs in the web hosting industry, by aligning with established industry trends.
In 2005, WHT banned offers of unlimited bandwidth and disk space because there was no one able to provide it on a consistent and forthright manner. Technology has evolved to the point where banning unlimited bandwidth and disk space offers no longer serves our goal of protecting and educating consumers. We’re lifting that ban as soon as we get everything configured to support it on the forums. There are tons of Advertising Forum announcements to edit, some FAQ edits, removal of some default infractions, and a few other odds and ends to tidy everything up.
After we make those rule adjustments, we’ll update the community by posting a thread in the WHT Announcements, Feedback and Questions forum like we do whenever we update the rules.
We'll soon be rolling out a consumer information blog. WHT has always been a great resource for consumers, but we’re making it even better. You may have noticed the “notice to consumers” box below the first post in threads in the advertising forums.
And as you may have seen, you can now "like" posts and "mention" other members, which makes it easier for you to acknowledge other members' contributions and be acknowledged for yours. And we have more enhancements to come.
I’m sure there’ll be some feedback based on our long stand against unlimited bandwidth and disk space offers. But WHT needs to re-align with the industry. If you have questions, concerns, or general comments, join us in the WHT Announcements, Feedback and Questions forum at http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1302467.Last edited by SoftWareRevue; 09-10-2013 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Removed Quote Tags
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09-10-2013, 04:02 PM #2
I beg to differ. There is no such thing as unlimited disk space or bandwidth.
I am VERY against anyone who advertises unlimited disk space or bandwidth on any plan, because at the end of the day the client will suffer when they slapped with FUP's.
I could very well take out a 5GiB hosting package advertising unlimited usages, drop some opensource packages on it and become a small mirror. After a few TiB of usage I can almost guarantee it will be terminated due to FUP/AUP reasons, even if I use it personally for the servers I admin.
I would love to take any provider up on that with just my personal photo collection, or even a personal backup of my photo collection.
I think it is a very very bad idea and will mislead users.Last edited by nkawit; 09-10-2013 at 04:04 PM. Reason: Referenced unlimited disk space too
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09-10-2013, 04:12 PM #3
I agree. There isn't.
But is there such a thing as unlimited subdomains, databases, email accounts, forwarders, autoresponders, and mailing lists on a shared hosting plan? I don't think so. But you can advertise these featured as "unlimited" because other factors do in fact limit them.
Similarly, responsible web hosts that advertise "unlimited" disk space and bandwidth specify the actual plan limits somewhere in their terms.
I am VERY against anyone who advertises unlimited disk space or bandwidth on any plan
Do you think that hosts that offer these things as unlimited are misleading users?█ "Do what you can, where you are, with what you have." – Theodore Roosevelt █0
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09-10-2013, 04:14 PM #4Corporate Member
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I never thought I'd see you write this SWR: "WHT needs to re-align with the industry."
WHT's no longer leading at this point. Unlimited isn't just bad for the industry, it's immoral. I've now cancelled my corporate payment subscription. I can't in my good conscience support something like this.
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09-10-2013, 04:14 PM #5Web Hosting Master
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I must have missed the Technical memo - just when did the laws of physics change?
I have no problem with "unmetered" but unlimited just does not exist, all the proof you need is when a ddos attack can bring down government agencies or companies like of Microsoft. Truth of the matter is problems like ddos exist because unlimited doesn't
A data pipe has physical limitations as does storage media - nkawit makes a valid point in that ANYONE providing "unlimited" services actually dont.
Fact of the matter is is is downright false advertisingNil illegitimi carborundum
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09-10-2013, 04:19 PM #6Web Hosting Master
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Nil illegitimi carborundum
I'm getting old and don't do drugs. I get the same effect just standing up fast.1
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09-10-2013, 04:23 PM #7WHT Addict
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09-10-2013, 04:25 PM #8
Why is it immoral to describe disk space and bandwidth as "unlimited" when subdomains, email accounts, etc. are advertised as "unlimited" but aren't unlimited any more than disk space or bandwidth are?
I agree, and I agreed in my first post in this thread.
Responsible hosts who list disk space and bandwidth as "unlimited," along with those who list databases, autoresponders, etc. as "unlimited," are using other limits.
Fact of the matter is is is downright false advertising
Do you have an "unlimited" cell phone plan?
Is it really unlimited? Or is it false advertising?█ "Do what you can, where you are, with what you have." – Theodore Roosevelt █0
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09-10-2013, 04:27 PM #9Mostly Retired!
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Are you against anyone who advertises unlimited subdomains, databases, email accounts, forwarders, autoresponders, and mailing lists?
These changes are tantamount to a slap in the face.
I would have been more accepting of an area titled "Starting a Web Hosting Business" over the unlimited fiasco.
Why not add a subsection for "free" hosting in there somewhere too. It's inviting the crowd that so many of us have *headdesk*'ed about all Summer. It puts a dent in the words "influential" and "prestige", verbiage I've come to know and have, until now, agreed with.
Such an area also decreases my desire, somewhat, to take as much time & effort into technical troubleshooting. I don't know why, yet. It just feels different.
*sigh* I guess if it must exist, at least it's going somewhere specific where I can see it & avoid it at all costs.
The only things in this world that should be unlimited are the salad and breadsticks at Olive Garden.
I can find very many reasons why people would abuse unlimited traffic and unlimited disk space offers.Last edited by Johnny Cache; 09-10-2013 at 04:32 PM.
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09-10-2013, 04:29 PM #10
This doesn't mean that being more permissive towards unlimited bandwidth and unlimited disk space should be the outcome.
Oh we allow "unlimited X" , lets just allow "Unlimited anything" while we at it... seriously?
You incorrectly are assuming all hosts are responsible. This is FAR from realistic.
And you just said it.... "specify the actual plan limits". This would right there imply false advertising.
In many countries you have advertising standards boards which accept complaints for just this. They use a "common joe" approach. If "common joe" sees an advert for "UNLIMITED DISK SPACE", what would "common joe" think? "Hey I can get unlimited disk space!! woohoo". You cannot then go and repeal this in your AUP/FUP, this is false advertising.
No, at the end of the day these are still limited by finite resources like disk space and bandwidth.
I can find few valid and legal reasons why someone would have a vast number of subdomains, databases, email accounts, forwarders, autoresponders and mailing lists. HNormally disk space limits and traffic limits actually limit the number of other "unlimited" services attached to a limited package.
I can find very many reasons why people would abuse unlimited traffic and unlimited disk space offers.
With unlimited traffic and unlimited disk space, you open up a whole can of worms where there is no fundamental limiting resource.
I will be the first one who signs up for many of these packages to store my files. Disk space is expensive, if I can get 1Tb for under $20, even if I need 2 or 3 hosts ... I will certainly do so and I will be the first to come whining when I get terminated because of false advertising or because the FUP suddenly limits my usage on a product that was advertised as unlimited.█► AllWorldIT ~ ISP / Hosting Provider / Government / Carrier Solutions
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09-10-2013, 04:31 PM #11
Even if they do, you are still limited by a finite storage area. ie. your stomach
Its very common to see "All you can eat Ribs" or "All you can eat Prawns". Almost all the time people dive into paying the higher price, but don't eat as much as what the meal is worth because the food comes with side plates of rich delights, or the food itself is rich and you don't want to eat alot of it.
Now giving you an unlimited size stomach aswell .... we all know where that will end up!
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09-10-2013, 04:34 PM #12Mostly Retired!
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@nkawit -- Touché.
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09-10-2013, 04:48 PM #13Web Hosting Guru
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So will you be allowing dedicated providers to start also posting misleading advertising with "unlimited bandwidth options"?
Respectfully,
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09-10-2013, 04:50 PM #14Web Hosting Master
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I'm against this as well.
After being on here for 2 or 3 years (time flies) I've learned so much, but have also learned a lot from my own research. My overall point.....unlimited is disastrous to the customer.
Those that understand the concept and not just bandwagon jumping understand it's all about resource usage, BUT those that do not understand, primarily the customer, which outweighs the ratio of hosts:customers, it continues to confuses them and lie to them.
How many customers are still bitten when unlimited runs out.
How many are now actually looking at proper hosting since HostGator has fallen apart, and everyone ran from previous fall aparts, only to deal with it head on. The amount of customers I've seen complaining when Netfirms was bought was huge....now every single HostGator customer is saying their sites have been down for 72 hours and counting....and this was from last week. Not one person is recommending them any more.
Now let's get back to WHT. How many hosts on here are going to jump on the unlimited wagon when they can't even manage limited resources. Some might look at my site and say "Well, your offering unlimited emails and blah blah". I've had a busy year and I'm re-branding my company and taking out such offers. But then what's the point of walking a straight path, only to have the rug pulled out.
Unlimited is pointless when it comes to advertising. When I with HG years ago, the shared accounts had limits. Then Baby 1 - Unlimited with soup, Baby 2 - unlimited with a 800 number and a pillow, Baby 3 - unlimited with a free blockbuster card. Oh the choice. 1, 2, or 3, same thing. Now imagine the what the advertising forum is going to look like;
UNLIMITED HOSTING - sign up now, 30 day refund
UNLIMITED HOSTING - I'm better than the host above
UNLIMITED HOSTING - I graduated High School, so my server is better
UNLIMITED HOSTING - Just because I can
UNLIMITED HOSTING - Because selling limited wasn't working for me
UNLIMITED HOSTING - Super fast connection to anywhere around the world
Some members might see my comedic spin on topics, which at times is a little sarcastic at times, but this could damage a lot of hosts....even those that get full praises and offer substantial quality among the rest. I've sent so many to this site who were just looking for a new host because I know there's good hosts on here. So many will say "My host fell apart, I need to move to Bluehost, or to hostgator, or godaddy", and I tell them come to WHT and look around. I might not be able to directly help you, but I would rather see you go somewhere where it's smooth sailing. I've setup clients on hosts on here....still going...no complaints....as it should be. Now imagine someone coming across an unlimited host that's only been a host for a year and really doesn't understand, BUT has a nice looking website.
...and to think I avoided the unlimited/limited argument for 2013, and here it is.
This could be seen as huge boost for WHT, but at what expense? In my previous musical career, there was a shift to garbage becoming the main stream. Years ago, garbage was not allowed because it was garbage. Dumbing down intelligence. Back then idiot music was 20% of the industry, now it's 100% and no one can compete. Same as unlimited hosts. Years ago the words EIG and HostGator were never in the same sentence. That changed a year ago. Will we see WHT and EIG being partners in 2015???
Tuesday rant done.Last edited by WPCYCLE; 09-10-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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09-10-2013, 05:09 PM #15Web Hosting Master
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SoftWareRevue, one question. Did you sell the forum to EIG, did they offer you a deal?
"WHT banned offers of unlimited bandwidth and disk space because there was no one able to provide it on a consistent and forthright manner."
Really? You can't believe that statement can you?
And so ends the age of integrity at WHT. WOW. I am completely shocked, just shocked.Last edited by WebzPro; 09-10-2013 at 05:13 PM.
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09-10-2013, 05:14 PM #16Web Hosting Master
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....this should be a hot topic when even "old school" members are questioning this move.
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09-10-2013, 05:17 PM #17Web Hosting Master
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Didn't we have several polls about this, and well I am pretty sure most of them disagreed with what you stated above.
Edit: Yes we did.
Let me remind you of the results:
I already cancelled my corporate subscription ages ago for multiple reasons, but kept my premium on. Guess whats going next.
@SoftWareRevue: Also why is this thread title so misleading. Don't worry, I know why and so do many people on this forum, you wished to sneak in this change of policy, and hope for minimum uproar. (Similar to what you tried to do with a misleading thread title in the premium members section).
Please can a mod change this topic to something more relevant perhaps: WHT 2013 - Allowing Unlimited offers.Last edited by Matthew_B; 09-10-2013 at 05:27 PM.
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09-10-2013, 05:27 PM #18Retired Moderator
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Without having read through everything in this thread yet, I'll say this:
Similarly, responsible web hosts that advertise "unlimited" disk space and bandwidth specify the actual plan limits somewhere in their terms.Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design0
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09-10-2013, 05:27 PM #19Problem Solver
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This is a really funny thing to do, when there is plenty of hosting companies that can't even offer metered space & bandwidth without over extending their resources.
From what I see in the line of work we do, a majority of the advertisers on this forum are no better suitable to offer this in 2013 as they were in 2005 when the ban was put into place.Steven Ciaburri | Industry's Best Server Management - Rack911.com
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09-10-2013, 05:31 PM #20Web Hosting Guru
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Hosting companies have evolved over the past many years to offer unlimited hosting. Why did they do this? That is the direction of the consumer market, towards unlimited hosting. Regardless of whether you think it is immoral, it is a part of the evolution of the hosting industry as a whole. Unlimited hosting is here to stay, whether you like it or not.
Following up from a conversation I had with WHT in HostingCon earlier this year, the position of WHT to not allow unlimited hosting was primarily due to the fact that the majority of WHT users voted against allowing unlimited ads. The problem with this perspective is the large percentage of people who post on WHT, are small hosting companies and service providers. One must take into consideration the fact that the WHT users who actively post, are biased towards one answer, while the (much larger) population of WHT visitors are not so biased towards the same answer. The factor that WHT, nor anybody else seemed to take into consideration, is that the larger population of WHT visitors do not have an account, and most importantly, do not have a voice.
Over the past few years with the introduction of unlimited hosting in the big companies, the only way the smaller companies could conceive of competing is by offering limited plans, and boasting a higher quality service. This is why the majority of the "WHT hosts" are against unlimited hosting. The argument that an unlimited hosting provider is unable to provide the same level of quality as a limited hosting provider is false. With the introduction of CloudLinux, betterlinux and 1H products. The ability to control a server and prevent any one user from affecting other users has greatly advanced. Furthermore, the argument that unlimited hosting is false advertising is incorrect as well. The terms of the particular product are always displayed in the TOS. Furthermore, some hosts are even being more upfront on their website and displaying a "laymans terms" of what is and not allowed on the host. It doesn't take very much experience to know that 99% of hosting companies will never come close to using up all the plan resources on a limited plan. Therefore the idea of offering unlimited hosting to these companies in order to have a competitive advantage was not too distant. It is rooted deep down in every human being, the urge to get a good deal. Unlimited for a digital product was inevitible. It has and always will be a marketing tactic for a market sector that has actually seen decline in recent years.
It only takes a quick second to check google trends and see just what the search volume for unlimited hosting is: http://www.google.com/trends/explore...hosting&cmpt=q
Searches for unlimited hosting, is at its lowest levels, EVER. Why is this the case? It is because the market has evolved, as more and more people joined the web, they initially went with an unlimited hosting provider because it seemed like a good deal. That is no longer, so the idea that an unlimited host has a distinct advantage over a limited host is false. If we had a poll, and asked the majority of WHT users if when they signed up for their first few hosting providers, if they ever signed up with an unlimited host, the odds would be in favor of it saying yes. Unlimited hosting was in it's infancy many years ago, however now it not only has no marketing advantages over a limited host, but also no longer means the quality of the hosting is less than the quality of a limited host.
Remember, unlimited hosting first earned a bad rap when the small reseller kiddies decided to offer it as a way of gaining more usersquickly, all without offering the same level of quality as the bigger hosting companies. Evolution is seen in every aspect of life, and an industry is no different. The tides have turned, the kiddie hosts can no longer get big by offering unlimited hosting and poor support. With WHT allowing the ability for hosts to post unlimited ads, it opens the door for hosting companies to compete closer on the end user experience. This will only broaden the horizon for the hosting industry as a whole, and very likely have the opposite effect most here think it will. I hypothesis that with WHT allowing unlimited hosts, it will contribute to more hosts actually reverting back to limited plans.Cody McLain
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09-10-2013, 05:31 PM #21Web Hosting Master
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Thank you for finally seeing the market changes and adapting with them.
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09-10-2013, 05:41 PM #22Web Hosting Master
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09-10-2013, 05:45 PM #23Web Hosting Master
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I'm assuming this is all about increasing potential Ad revenue more than anything else.
I don't see how "unlimited x features" can be compared to unlimited disk/transfer with a straight face. With unlimited features the real limits are in front of the users and easily understandable, whereas the limits for unlimited disk/transfer offers are buried in the terms of the host either in terminology that isn't easily understandable or in percentages relative to the CPU/Connection (things that likely won't be completely consistent). I know these clauses exist at all hosts, but since they are the primary limiting factor for unlimited packages, the odds of end-users getting suspended/terminated for abuse are higher. I think the general track record and level of services offered by the unlimited providers more than substantiates that.
Advertising on the forum will no doubt be dominated by the EIG brands and the like very soon. I can imagine the sticky threads now (1 BlueHost, 2 FatCow, 3 HostGator, etc.). It's unfortunate, because WHT has always been a great place to find the smaller to mid-size hosts that generally offer far superior service. Hopefully, some of the solid providers on here don't feel pressured to join the "unlimited" craze (those packages tend to draw in bad customers in my experience).
But money talks in all things and it's not our forum. INET will do what they feel is in their best interest (understandably). This will no longer be a place for the "Mom & Pop" and instead will be a venue for the largest hosting corporations (EIG, Godaddy, etc.). I'm sure the "Mom & Pops" will find a new home, it's not the end-of the world after all.
I do agree with @wirefusemedia that the unlimited model is here to stay.Last edited by DWS2006; 09-10-2013 at 05:52 PM.
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09-10-2013, 05:46 PM #24Mostly Retired!
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This now defunct provider had the right idea, subconsciously. I think. I mean, I guess they...well, they might have meant....
Forget it. Just forget it. I'm going to remain speechless for 3 hours, go to olive garden with my wife, order nothing but salad and breadsticks, over-eat for practically nothing, and vanish before the bill comes.
I just described, maybe 75% of the 'Unlimited" market.
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On a more serious level, are we, as long-time WHTers, allowed to respectfully and non-judgmentally share our opinion on this subject within each thread after this has been launched? I'm sure many of us with certain moral and ethical values will have a lot to say as these threads develop....Last edited by Johnny Cache; 09-10-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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09-10-2013, 05:47 PM #25Retired Moderator
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I have no issues with hosts choosing not to limit the use of their resources based on disk space and data transfer, but to lift the restriction on this and not insist that hosts post the measures they use to limit plans in a prominent manner is the highest degree of irresponsibility I can imagine.
Unlimited hosting doesn't exist. Hosts have simply shifted the limits elsewhere. I'm 100% behind allowing this change, but only if the rules go on to state that actual limits must be expressed. That is a true reflection of the industry today. Unlimited without declaring where limits are applied reflects what kiddiehosts were doing 5 years ago, a poor industry standard for WHT to align with.Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design4
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