View Poll Results: Should we allow Unlimited offers on WHT?
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02-12-2013, 02:55 PM #126Web Hosting Master
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The issue of "unlimited" features is more complex - whilst technical people understand that there will be some sort of limit ( for example ISTR a 65535 records limit in a zone on bind, so there is an actual limit on subdomains / mx entries etc on a cpanel box) end-users dont always expect to have restrictions of certain things
Unlimited emails - one argument is that even an "empty" mailbox takes up space on the server, so utilises your disk limit - this only works for CP's that count the things properly.
Similarly there are actual, practical and performance limitations on number of DB's (unless you start having dedicated separate DB servers) and whilst the "argument" of "we can always add another disk" might make sense, it never works like that as
a. people who use that argument never do
b. there is a limit to the number of disks you can add
I'd be quite quite happy to offer unlimited storage - on a pay per allocation/usage basis - at £1000/Tb/month in 10TB chunks, paid in advance of your partitions being expanded, with a 3month cancellation period, I can add SANs all day longRob Golding Astutium Ltd - UK based ICANN Accredited Domain Registrar - proud to accept BitCoins
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02-12-2013, 03:21 PM #127
The problem is that it's not so cut and dried. Unlimited is cut and dried. Everything else really isn't. Should I have a business license to post an ad? No, I really don't think I should be required to have that, as most states and localities don't require it. By and large, the free market and reputations should decide what floats to the top, and I think this works well. Unlimited is a special case because it's obviously always a fraudulent offer. It would be irresponsible to allow a 100% known fraudulent offer, but the same can't be said for being judge and jury in less certain situations.
To the point of what's best for individual companies or the community, I would say "the clutter" is really a minor problem. We've taken numerous steps to make sure we stand out from the crowd, and as far as I'm concerned it has worked well. Forcing all the ads to look the same, have the same information, get approved by mods, or whatever, is going to make it harder to tell the professional hosts from the others, not easier. If my ad speaks to a customer and gets them on board, and other people's ads do not, the last thing I need is a moderator to look at my ad as a model citizen of an ad and require everyone else's ads look the same. The fact is that without the right information in your ad, people won't trust you and won't buy from you, so by and large it solves itself. The unlimited ads are a special case because there is no room for argument as to whether or not the provider could possibly follow through on the promise of unlimited: they can't.IOFLOOD.com -- We Love Servers
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02-12-2013, 04:03 PM #128Temporarily Suspended
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I voted no. Further, you should limit the possible answers simply to "Yes" or "No", as I believe a poll of this nature should be looking for clearly delineated, boolean results, not gray-area, wishy-washy in-betweens.
That said, I think if you were to permit Unlimited offers, they should be put in their own sub-forum and made to be singled out as such from the other offers. That way you're not limiting your own business model. But definitely keep the trash out of the capped offers for sure.
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02-12-2013, 04:49 PM #129
Voted: Yes
Reason:
1. If you allow unlimited hd/bandwidth then more "providers" will join this forum.
2. Some of BIG companies provide unlimited hosting, they will join this forum and purchase a Corpy/premium membership which can help WHT/Inet to grow.
3. More "users" will join this forum who is looking for "unlimited" hosting companies.
4. Its a 2013, Everyone know about 'Unlimited' word.Dewlance® Shared/Reseller/Master Reseller - US/UK/EU/FRK/CA - SSD
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02-12-2013, 04:54 PM #130Top-Notch Hosting
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02-12-2013, 05:23 PM #131Cloud & Web Hosting Specialist
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02-12-2013, 05:24 PM #132Junior Guru Wannabe
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What I see repeatedly in this thread is an unrealistic view of clients out there. Overestimating the intelligence and common sense of the average customer is a mistake.
Of all the clients I've had come to me to build their website, that had ALREADY signed up for their domain and hosting they have all signed up with either GoDaddy or an unlimited host. godaddy sign ups are because of huge advertising, while the rest are because when Mr. or Mrs. Small Business Owner looks for a webhost and sees "Unlimited" they're sold. They don't know anything about the difference in quality between providers. They're getting UNLIMITED! and they sign up.
If you've ever had to work on a site that utilizes databases, on a host like powweb or fatcow or any of the other garbage hosts, you'd understand. the entire reason I began hosting was out of frustration of clients coming to me over and over with their garbage unlimited hosting which made everything I need to do on their sites take 5 times longer than it should...
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02-12-2013, 06:01 PM #133Aspiring Evangelist
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By nature/design "unlimited" plans are misleading....The community has spoken and with 60%+ saying no, I think that draws a pretty clear line in the sand
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02-12-2013, 08:06 PM #134Temporarily Suspended
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A caveat that I mentioned earlier, though: having 4 choices in the poll doesn't make interpretation any easier, in fact harder. This is a question asking for a boolean outcome. If the poll was correctly set up, it would have 2 choices: "Yes" or "No". Period.
So taking that into account, one must throw the "Yes, but with an explanation I'll provide" effectively into the "Yes" category and the "I don't care" would be a 50/50 split distribution for "Yes" and "No", or thrown out altogether as the garbage vote you may see it to be, take your pick.
So when you do your final math, take that into account, if iNet chooses to continue the poll with 4 choices.Last edited by Trip; 02-12-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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02-12-2013, 11:12 PM #135WHT Addict
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I voted no, unlimited just simply does not exist and I do not think they need to be on these forums. Keep the unlimited hosts to those that wants quantity over quality.
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02-12-2013, 11:55 PM #136Web Hosting Master
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There are 2 'Yes' 1 'No' and 1 'Abstain' (for a positive change abstain usually gets counted with No votes, for a negative change they get discarded)
So it's either 75 total for Yes and 138 for No
or 75 total for Yes and 149 for No
Either way if the poll was closed now it's a clear No ...Rob Golding Astutium Ltd - UK based ICANN Accredited Domain Registrar - proud to accept BitCoins
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02-13-2013, 12:04 AM #137Nerf Herder
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I just wish it was a clear vote on what the point is, if this is being done to improve the quality of companies in the deal area there are other steps that could be taken. And it would probably help if the pool clarified that was the point of this.. (if that was the point)
Right now it just appears to be a vote on if you -like- or -don't like- that marketing makes good use of the hunter gatherer portion of the human brain.
Maybe the next vote can be if we want to send a formal petition complaining to the decade behind Mad Men, all while the largest hosting companies out there provide great service and use unlimited and enable more people to create online,
Thanks, Ben
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02-13-2013, 12:47 AM #138Web Host Reviewer
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I don't want to see any more BS at WHT, so I voted "no".
The so-called "big companies" can already join WHT, there just limits on advertising all-you-can-eat.
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02-13-2013, 01:07 AM #139Web Hosting Master
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I vote yes because it is less ridiculous than the hosts offering 1+ TB of data space for $5/$10 per month (have seen it on known reseller accounts here). Everyone states there is no such thing as unlimited, but they are the same people signing up for unlimited long distance and unlimited data on their phones. Those have similar limitations to hosting (usually more), but no one frowns upon that. Inode based models work well for lots of folks instead of defined disk space. It's just another method of advertising and I don't think it is WHTs job to stop that.
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02-13-2013, 03:36 AM #140Temporarily Suspended
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Kris you raise a good point and we've seen Ben from Site5 articulating his thing for some time now. To both I give a nod, as you really cannot totally defeat a stance for or against overselling, on that much I would think most of us would agree. But I will say that when "unlimited" rears its head in web hosting, there seems to be more issues experienced across a full range and gamut of service tiers than when it appears in alternate industries, such as mobile carriers, landline telcos, isps, utility companies, etc. That and the industry's general distaste for concept also appears higher than in those alternate examples I mentioned. I realize my observation is purely subjective, but I do claim that now before anyone attempts to thwart the generalization.
Last edited by Trip; 02-13-2013 at 03:43 AM. Reason: Grammar Nazi =)
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02-13-2013, 04:00 AM #141Hosting seer
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02-13-2013, 05:21 AM #142Web Hosting Master
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+10000000
Years in business
Amount of complaints during a year
I'm still surprised when I see certain hosts being allowed to advertise when almost weekly there are people complaining about those hosts, and a lot of times with the exact same issue. No wonder the unlimited hosts win in some cases until it falls apart. Then of course you have now built a confused customer. Tried "good", didn't work, tried bad, still didn't work.
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02-13-2013, 05:24 AM #143Web Hosting Master
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I am not saying you can't run your own special / offer / etc.
I am simply saying there should be some facts in the post that give some basic details about what they are really buying.
Just like the Nutritional Information labels in the USA on food. Some standard way that people can compare the providers.█ REDUNDANT.COM Equinix Data Centers Performance Optimized Network
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02-13-2013, 07:11 AM #144Nerf Herder
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I applaud the thought, but what you propose usually only works if someone is in charge and willing to make things happen. And willing to make it a business of testing and verifying those hosts who wish to take part with open standards.
The problem here is iNet makes good money off this forum but doesn't care what you guys discuss. And the community ownership of this forum lacks any power to make the decisions to build and enforce something like that. Without those two parts being united nothing will happen out of this.
Might take a look at serverbear.com though, I like what they are doing and we take part on the vps level,
Thanks, BenLast edited by bwb; 02-13-2013 at 07:15 AM. Reason: learning to spell still
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02-13-2013, 08:07 AM #145Web Hosting Master
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Originally Posted by bwb
Let's not make it a discussion about whether the owners of WHT care. It's obvious that they do. This discussion is about whether allowing unlimited/unmetered is going to be good for WHT, good for the people that use it, and good for the industry as a whole.
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02-13-2013, 12:46 PM #146Aspiring Evangelist
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That's a good point. Perhaps a rephrase that "Clearly oversold hosts" should not be allowed to post either, in addition to Unlimited offers, would be a good twist to the thing.
Sometimes you even see ridiculously high diskspace only to find out in the TOS that inodes and maximum size per file is limited in such a way that it's impossible at any time to even reach the implied limit they promise. :')
Good to see this discussion. Misleading advertisements shouldn't be allowed.Last edited by DedicatedBox; 02-13-2013 at 12:54 PM.
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02-13-2013, 01:17 PM #147Dennis Johnson
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Thanks, Jamie. Maybe I need to unpack my thesaurus and see if I can make that clearer next time we talk about this.
I'll also take the advice of whoever stated it should only be Yes or No (next time).
Why do I mention "next time"? Because we've talked about it on a few occasions. I imagine we'll talk about it again.There is no best host. There is only the host that's best for you.
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02-13-2013, 01:18 PM #148Dennis Johnson
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02-13-2013, 01:35 PM #149Mostly Retired!
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I don't wish to speak out-of-school, but one of my last clients of 2012 came from a limitless provider. He was certain his site was doomed because backup creation failed regularly. It took me over four hours to pull a 3.5 GB tarball from a system that's load avg. never went under 10.00, the locally configured /backup was at 87% capacity and most of the service statuses were in a warning state for hours. To me, that would be an example of a clearly oversold hosting environment.
I would imagine that specifics or something other than an accusation would be needed in order to appropriately verify overselling, but isn't it hard to expose an overseller without revealing too much? Seems like anyone could make the claim with no real data to back it up with...and supplying of such data could potentially violate certain WHT regulations, I'm sure.
We all know they exist, otherwise there wouldn't be an option in WHMCS to allow overselling for reseller packages.
Last edited by Johnny Cache; 02-13-2013 at 01:44 PM. Reason: Added Thought
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02-13-2013, 01:56 PM #150Cloud & Web Hosting Specialist
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