View Poll Results: Should we allow Unlimited offers on WHT?

Voters
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  • Yes

    178 29.57%
  • No

    341 56.64%
  • No Preference (I'm good either way)

    34 5.65%
  • Yes - But I'll post recommended restrictions in the thread

    49 8.14%
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Results 301 to 325 of 504
  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Michael View Post
    Is it possible for a site with limited bandwidth, to be able to use 100% of CPU forever?
    No. But it's certainly possible to use 100% CPU for long enough to p*** off all the other customers on the same server, and for long enough so that the "limited" host suspends the abusive user. And rest assured, that is what will happen at every single host, unlimited or not.

    Edit: Actually hosts running cloudlinux and similar will simply restrict the abusive user's CPU usage to something more reasonable. Either way CPU is limited, whether it's a declared limit or not, and whether it's a so-called "unlimited" plan or not.
    Last edited by foobic; 02-17-2013 at 08:06 AM.
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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    Please help me understand this. I really am trying to follow this logic, but it loses me.

    If unlimited space and/or bandwidth offers are "false advertising" because they "never mention anywhere in the offer the limits imposed by their TOS or plan", why aren't those that offer hard limits of space and/or bandwidth false advertising when they never mention anywhere in the offer the limits imposed by their TOS or plan?
    Sure its actually simple. If they advertise their space and transfer which is limited they are not lying. Even while they do not publish the other limits. They can put, but I donīt think it would enter in the whole offer. What what they are advertising is what they offer in that offer. Not everything, but what is in the offer is real.

    The same unlimited ads, what advertises is fake. They advertise the same bandwidth and space, but put is as unlimited which is not true.

    Just because you cannot put all limits in the offer does not mean you need to lie about one or two. What you advertise if what you should offer.

    If I advertise unlimited space, I expect users that read that offer to understand its unlimited. Now everyone here assumes that is very logic that the user does not get unlimited disk, but is it really?

    Why donīt we make a poll between this users that buy this this ads? Most of them really imagined its unlimited, and they are shocked when they are kicked of their hosting or when they say he is abusing some resource. I see this posts all the time, newbie users that are new to hosting, actually think that its all unlimited they can eat for that price. They do not really know how it works. Just because someone does not know how hosting works does not mean you have abuse them and trick them.

    Just like I would not trick a grandma selling her a 10 year old laptop for the price of a current machine. You may sell that P3 as the latest technology and she will even fall for it, but its deceiving and actually fraud.

    Now we all know who those unlimited hosts target. Exactly those type of users. So for me personally at least I think its fraud. If they would use something like this "Unlimited disk*"

    And then put a disclaimer like "TOS and other limits apply" now that is different. I would consider that pretty much correct, but that is not who this offer are made on the Internet. They are mostly like "All you can eat unlimited"

    Anything else you want explained? Im sure you are pretty much smart enough to understand the difference of how the end user perceives an offer or ad.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Michael View Post
    No this is not what I am saying. There are no unlimited sticks of CPU and RAM. But you can allow the X account to use the entire RAM available on server and if it is not enough, you can add more RAM etc. What I am saying is that there are several Hosts who do not place limits on CPU and RAM usage, but they DO limit bandwidth and space usage.
    Sure but with an extra cost right?

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Sure but with an extra cost right?
    Or without, depends on the Host's policy.
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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by foobic View Post
    No. But it's certainly possible to use 100% CPU for long enough to p*** off all the other customers on the same server, and for long enough so that the "limited" host suspends the abusive user. And rest assured, that is what will happen at every single host, unlimited or not.

    Edit: Actually hosts running cloudlinux and similar will simply restrict the abusive user's CPU usage to something more reasonable. Either way CPU is limited, whether it's a declared limit or not, and whether it's a so-called "unlimited" plan or not.
    Actually that is not quite true. Of course a website can use 100% of one CPU. It all depends on the hosting offer. Of course most shared hosting do not allow this, but nothing stops a website from consuming this either. If a host offers a plan where you can eat a whole CPU and then yes you can. It all depends on the price you are willing to pay. If I hire a VPS I can also eat the whole CPU. A website can eat as much CPU as you can trow at it, depending on traffic.

    Shared hosting is limited of course, but the limits depend on the provider, he can allow 1% of CPU or 100% of 8 cores. A shared hosting could be a server with only 2 hosting accounts on it, if the server has 2 CPUs, technically they could use everything. If the provider sell equals share, each one could be allowed to use almost a full core since the OS and software also need some from its own CPU cycles.

    But donīt expect the provider to sell it as cheap budget hosting, but probably a couple of hundreds a months.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Michael View Post
    Or without, depends on the Host's policy.
    Yeah well we then know the answer to that. I assume a hosting company, "company" means earning money, not losing.

    Otherwise please tell me where I can find hosts that give CPU usage away for free.

  7. #307
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    Given the number of issues with unlimited hosting, i.e. extreme resource limitations, overcrowding of servers, and the fact that it's an obvious marketing gimmick, I don't think it should be allowed. Do you really want to see all the forums flooded with those type of offers daily? It'll hit the Shared, Reseller, VPS, and Cloud Hosting forums to start and those not already on-board will make every attempt to compete whether they have the resources to do so or not.

    Sure, some of the offers now are borderline ridiculous, though we don't need to encourage more of them. There's enough complaints as is with various providers seemingly just not caring, failing to respond, etc. We don't need more complaints of:


    "[Insert Host] suspended my site because I hit XX% CPU/RAM"

    "[Insert Host] suspended my site because of INODE usage; what is that?"

    "[Insert Host] is FRAUD they don't really offer unlimited...."

    "[Insert Host] is telling me I have to upgrade because I used too much [insert resource]"


    .... The list of complaints could go on and on. While yes, some hosts limit resources now, without offering unlimited disk, bandwidth, etc, and they still receive complaints, with more and more jumping on-board the unlimited bandwagon, it's sure to increase these types of threads.


    We all know the majority of clients never read the TOS (mainly because most providers have a TOS that a legal department has to decode for anyone to understand, that's another issue through); some do, yes, but most don't.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    ... Anything else you want explained? Im sure you are pretty much smart enough to understand the difference of how the end user perceives an offer or ad.
    I often know the answers to questions I ask.

    But - yes - I do need something else explained.

    We've all seen flies walking on the ceiling. Since flies can't fly upside-down, how far are they from the ceiling before they do a backflip, or whatever they do, so they can walk on it?
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  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    I often know the answers to questions I ask.

    But - yes - I do need something else explained.

    We've all seen flies walking on the ceiling. Since flies can't fly upside-down, how far are they from the ceiling before they do a backflip, or whatever they do, so they can walk on it?
    I guess you just like to lose time as well or you consider wasting time is fun. Your reply clearly seems so.

    Sometimes I ask myself how many useless hours I have spend on WHT for what exactly...it does put food on my table and I just end up frustrated or discussing pointless things.

    Good luck with your unlimited world. I prefer to stay on the real side of the world, the one where Google Compute Engine, Rackspace, Amazon and everyone else which is serious in the hosting industry has a price for everything they sale and try to stay as far as away from marketing gimmicks.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    I guess you just like to lose time as well or you consider wasting time is fun. Your reply clearly seems so.
    ...
    I simply do not believe any more words can be added to this thread to sway one side or the other. The topic discussion was over long ago. Since then there's only been the same repeated.

    But if folks want to talk about it, I'm not going to close the thread. Go ahead - talk about it.

    I've said and read enough.

    Since the topic has been resolved, any response is as good as any other response.
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  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    I simply do not believe any more words can be added to this thread to sway one side or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    But if folks want to talk about it, I'm not going to close the thread. Go ahead - talk about it.
    As of this post there are 2461 currently active users (198 members and 2263 guests) and most users ever online was 12,827.

    This thread polls a mere 331 votes. It is also worth leaving the thread open for non posting voters IMO.

  12. #312
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    This is a 'hot thread' which is worth leaving open if WHT aims for a Guinness world record for the longest thread!!!



    Still not close enough at present.
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  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by whrss View Post

    Still not close enough at present.
    love how people read this.. its basically 60-40, which is pretty close

    there are 3 yes options, so no one consolidates them

    I would like another option - only allow ANY offerings with hard server resource limits specified in the ad and not the tos
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  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    there are 3 yes options, so no one consolidates them
    The poll is actually somewhat slanted towards allowing it. Yes and no are not at all ambiguous, but then you have no preference (discount that as not voting at all IMHO) and yes with explanation. To be more accurate, that might have needed a "no, with explanation" choice as well.
    So, discounting the no pref votes, it's roughly 2-1 against; closer if allowing those.

    "there are 3 yes options"

    No, not really.
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  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    The poll is actually somewhat slanted towards allowing it. Yes and no are not at all ambiguous, but then you have no preference (discount that as not voting at all IMHO) and yes with explanation. To be more accurate, that might have needed a "no, with explanation" choice as well.
    So, discounting the no pref votes, it's roughly 2-1 against; closer if allowing those.
    its 60/40 no matter how you slice it..

    its a simple statistics equation.. you are saying no flat out, and giving 3 options for yes, and only counting one of them...

    I dont care = yes or no, which equals yes sure, we dont care
    yes with conditions = yes
    yes = yes

    the poll is slanted and any statiscal analysis would yield the same.. the fact people are chest pounding the overwhelming no result is humerous

    ask a different poll - and give 3 options for no (or dirivatives there of) and 1 yes - and see what happens... in fact, ask if people should specify hard server resources in restricted packages and see what happens
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  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    I dont care = yes or no, which equals yes sure, we dont care
    yes with conditions = yes
    yes = yes
    That needs to be discarded since it's a vote for both and neither at once.
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  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    That needs to be discarded since it's a vote for both and neither at once.
    "No Preference (I'm good either way)"
    right which = not no or yes?

    skewing stats doesnt point them in your favour.. "stats are the greatest source of all lies" - albert eistein

    look - I really dont care how this plays out - but, lets not get ridiculous here - you have got a statistical sample where 60% say no, and 40% say yes to different variations and you are trying to skew those stats..

    im not sure if this is worse then saying unlimited email accounts are ok, but, unlimited bandwidth isnt - or not - but, its darned close
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  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    skewing stats doesnt point them in your favour..
    The attempted "skewing" is in the poll itself, by giving 3 "yes" to one "no" (yes, yes-but and yes-maybe all vs No) - and still No won with 50% more than the Yes's

    What else is there to discuss, SR asked, the community answered
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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    you have got a statistical sample where 60% say no, and 40% say yes to different variations
    Again, no. If you intend to count the "I don't care" votes, you may as well include those that didn't vote on whichever side you're in favor of. Ambivalence doesn't count for either side.

    To quote: "skewing stats doesnt point them in your favour.."
    Simple fact is, more are against at this point, regardless of margin.
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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    Again, no. If you intend to count the "I don't care" votes, you may as well include those that didn't vote on whichever side you're in favor of. Ambivalence doesn't count for either side.

    To quote: "skewing stats doesnt point them in your favour.."
    Simple fact is, more are against at this point, regardless of margin.
    I agree, but you need to also consider that(roughly calculated) more than 70% of those who said no are providers that do not offer unlimited hosting, many don't even offer hosting below VPS level.

    So really the poll numbers are senseless and ineffective.

    What you can say is that the majority who took the time to vote are providers, do not offer unlimited hosting products (in the main) and have no real interest in it one way or another.

    Or you could say that there are many nervous providers that simply don't want the boat rocked and feel threatened by the concept and voted no.

    And you can also say as I already have that the poll severely lacks end user input and therefore has no real benefit in the debate.

    You can't in my view see this poll as anything other than skewed heavily to one side.

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    *This is a public poll. Users can see who voted and how.

    It's time again for this debate.

    WebHostingTalk.com has maintained a storied tradition of not allowing unlimited diskspace and bandwidth offers (hereafter referred to as Unlimited).

    That decision was made when Unlimited was new and often fraudulent.

    However, with advances in technology, user needs, and the proven longevity of providers offering Unlimited, I'd like to entertain the possibility of allowing those offers on WHT.

    The last time we talked about it, some 2 1/2 years ago, a majority of members were OK with allowing Unlimited.

    What do you say about it today?

    In the last thread, there were a few mentions of, "Only if [blank]". If you propose such an option in this poll, please consider that any limitations placed on Unlimited providers will need to be placed on Limited providers.

    Let the discussion begin.

    *This is a public poll. Users can see who voted and how.
    People will vote against it because their niche has been speaking against it. However, in truth, if WHT wants to represent the hosting industry as a whole, it should not ban the most popular offer in the industry.
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  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by ServerCubes View Post
    I agree, but you need to also consider that(roughly calculated) more than 70% of those who said no are providers that do not offer unlimited hosting, many don't even offer hosting below VPS level.

    So really the poll numbers are senseless and ineffective.

    What you can say is that the majority who took the time to vote are providers, do not offer unlimited hosting products (in the main) and have no real interest in it one way or another.

    Or you could say that there are many nervous providers that simply don't want the boat rocked and feel threatened by the concept and voted no.

    And you can also say as I already have that the poll severely lacks end user input and therefore has no real benefit in the debate.

    You can't in my view see this poll as anything other than skewed heavily to one side.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickn View Post
    People will vote against it because their niche has been speaking against it. However, in truth, if WHT wants to represent the hosting industry as a whole, it should not ban the most popular offer in the industry.

    Most popular doesn't mean it's good


    I think the problem that I have found is that hosts somehow think the words from designers are invalid and simply ignore them.

    Yes, it fun to point fingers all day long at what another host is doing, but when your trouble shooting or desiging a site and it goes on one of those hosts...there isn't enough coffee to compensate the time needed to fix things...and I don't drink coffee.

    Here is a simple comparison...which I bet has been explained 93864987304973 posts ago;


    Limited Host = fast loading, good support, minimal tech issues

    Unlimited Host = medium to slow load, support ????, all sorts of issues.


    Now there ARE some good and bad within each industry, but from experience, I've never had anything good to say about any host with unlimited space. I do support for many clients who have sites on good hosts and sometimes I don't hear from them for months...and when I do, it's never for the issues that I would have to deal with on an unlimited host.

    So me personally, I don't care about rocking boats, what others say, what "looks" good, I'm just speaking from experience. If other design firms are refusing to work with clients on unlimited hosts, there has to be a reason. I almost feel like doing the same. It doesn't make sense to charge X to one client for one hour of work, and then charge X to another client for 5 hours of the same work when the issues are not the clients fault.

  23. #323
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    What I'd love to see would be poll results that clearly differentiate between providers and end users. I can see a vast majority of providers opting against unlimited being allowed, but I'm not sure where end users would line up in the stats.
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  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenseiSteve View Post
    What I'd love to see would be poll results that clearly differentiate between providers and end users. I can see a vast majority of providers opting against unlimited being allowed, but I'm not sure where end users would line up in the stats.
    That WOULD be more valid. I can see a few issue with the end results;

    1. most people only know unlimited hosts like go daddy, and host gator
    2. many when presented with issues just go to another of the same host (point #1)

    Only when someone in their circle does proper research or has bounced from host to host to they ever end up moving to a better host.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    That WOULD be more valid. I can see a few issue with the end results;

    1. most people only know unlimited hosts like go daddy, and host gator
    2. many when presented with issues just go to another of the same host (point #1)

    Only when someone in their circle does proper research or has bounced from host to host to they ever end up moving to a better host.
    You make some valid points, but I think Hostgator and GoDaddy's grip on unlimited has lessened in the last few years. I'd still love to read the comparative comments.
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