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08-27-2012, 09:30 AM #176
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08-27-2012, 11:01 AM #177Web Hosting Master
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08-27-2012, 11:32 AM #178Web Hosting Master
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08-27-2012, 11:42 AM #179Web Hosting Master
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I've always seen it as two main members from each side debating and their minds won't be changed. Too stubborn to see each others points of view.
Until all members are willing to take the stubbornness aside, not much is going to change other than hosts on this forum having a harder and harder time marketing.
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08-27-2012, 11:46 AM #180Web Hosting Master
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Those people will not change their minds or see reason, but it's the others who can make up their own minds.
I know from is the first thread I have seen myself, Andrew or kpmedia actually defending unlimited in some shape or form, although neither of us with disk space or to the extent of some people.
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08-27-2012, 01:25 PM #181
@Wullie, I share techjr's opinion. It gets rediculous that every thread that has unlimited mentioned in it gets 5 people saying "There's no such thing as a unlimited hard drive" and Collabora saying that if you limit resources then you should have to limit services too.
It's a bad argument to have here. A formal debate may work or even a poll, but I think these threads get too bogged down to be of any use. Think about how many people skim and then post useless things on WHT and then note the length of the posts in this thread.
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08-27-2012, 01:31 PM #182Web Hosting Master
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I've never said any such thing and never will. Its posts like that, misquoting and taking things out of context, that can also degrade a legit debate on how to deliver a particular service. Trying to overcome the objections is not a debate when the objectors' motivation is to prevent the service in the first place. There will always be the negative bunch that will denounce anythign new, different or innovative. But I would not call their interference a debate.
Last edited by Collabora; 08-27-2012 at 01:45 PM.
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08-27-2012, 01:55 PM #183
Wow, that's amazing. Regardless of how many times I try to conclude my stay in this thread someone quotes me and brings me back.
You are correct. I did not quote that correctly. You say there should be no difference between unlimited services and unlimited resources in many threads though.
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08-27-2012, 03:01 PM #184Web Hosting Master
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08-27-2012, 03:07 PM #185
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08-27-2012, 03:11 PM #186Web Hosting Master
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I may have said something similar in response to a particular post under a specific context, but never as a general statement or rule. For example, when someone says its ok to sell unlimited resources but not unlimited services (or vice versa) and then redifines a hosting resource as being a service (or vice versa) for the purpose of erecting an easily refutable straw man.
Last edited by Collabora; 08-27-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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08-27-2012, 05:21 PM #187Web Hosting Master
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I said it before we ran any unlimited brand and I say it now it's pointless to be not allowing such advertisements on this forum. You don't allow unlimited space or bandwidth but allow someone to advertise unlimited everything else.
Unlimited Emails
This is not possible there is a limit of disk per user account and a limit of number of inodes. Every email account needs at least one directory and the on size file of that is 4096 bytes. On a 2GB hosting plan you can only actually have 524,288 email accounts.
I'm looking at a system with a modest amount of inodes 255,819,776. It has not even factoring in other data the ability to store 255,819,776 email accounts. It does not sound like unlimited to me.
MySQL Databases
On ext3 the maximum number of directories is 32,000 therefore on nearly every configuration out there on WHT it's not possible to have unlimited databases. If I create 32,001 databases I will break the database server. If you're running ext4 the maximum amount is 64,000. This doesn't take into account limit on number of tables, either which is also operating system limited.
What I am getting at here is there is a lot of supposedly false advertising already on this forum. The argument with all of these is well no one will ever hit the limit. You can build environments where space and bandwidth will never hit any reasonable limit as well. This same argument however is not allowed in these cases.
Web hosting limitation is in fact CPU, Memory and I/O and has been for quite a while. There is now software that will even allow you to limit based on these.
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08-27-2012, 05:29 PM #188Web Hosting Master
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08-27-2012, 05:36 PM #189Web Hosting Master
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This thread is a prime example of why industry disrupting startups don't come from WHT.
CloudFlare... great example. Didn't come to WHT until later. Could've easily been started by someone like Jacob Wall, Brendan Diaz, Nick Nelson... all thought leaders in this industry. Stifled by the lack of open mindedness at WHT.
Speaking of CloudFlare, did you know they allow for unlimited bandwidth and disk space... and they do it all free, while hosting your DNS? Weird.
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08-27-2012, 05:44 PM #190Web Hosting Master
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08-27-2012, 05:46 PM #191THE Web Hosting Master
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I just wanted to note that most of the innovation happening inside the hosting community from the WHT crowd normally won't be seen to the WHT crowd, at least as it applies to us. CloudFlare only works based on scale, largely the scale of a lot of smaller customers, and that isn't really the market most companies are wanting to move towards.
As an example, we've been moving towards enterprise customers, dealing with larger firms, such as large public universities, major media companies, companies getting tens of millions in venture capital, companies managing tens of billions in assets, etc. None of the services for those customers are being marketed to the WHT crowd and I can't imagine we're the only ones.
What gets attention on WHT is mass market items, the things that are cheap, affordable, etc. WHT has little to no understanding or care for the Enterprise market, which is really where the business is, imho.
To note, even though it hasn't gotten a ton of press, I really think OnApp could be a game changer, a novel idea, a service provider and multi-tenant focused cloud environment. That HAS come from the WHT crowd.
As for the main thread, I would say I agree with:
The product needs to be clearly defined, as long as people know what they're getting, it should be fair game. I am all for not allowing people to be misleading, and have historically taken a good amount of flack for pointing out BS when I see it, like with AlphaRed.Last edited by KarlZimmer; 08-27-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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08-27-2012, 05:49 PM #192Disabled
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This subject must be depleted already, it's never ending!
As a term, unlimited isn't possible or realistic, end of. There's always limits somewhere. It's marketing trickery and always will be. Some may say unlimited is good for 'fair use'. But not defining those fair usage limitations clearly pre-sale is dis-honest outright. One size fits all solutions are not the way forward simply because there's really no clear global average when it comes to resource usage.
My opinion (opinion can't be wrong) is that providers who offer unlimited disk space or 'bandwidth' (traffic) are the bottom feeders of this industry.
One example is my 3G provider gives me unlimited data, I'm aware this is capped but they place no (public) set limit so basically when I reach this limit I get blocked, so I have to be very wary. As I would need to be in a 'unlimited' hosting environment.
As someone above described, it ends up being a free-for-all between clients for resources, but IMO that's just disgusting in any target market never mind online SME.Last edited by iexo; 08-27-2012 at 05:54 PM.
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08-27-2012, 06:50 PM #193Location = SoapBox
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Hello,
your opinion certainly can't be wrong - and I would not suggest it is.
however, personally - I once shared the same opinion you do.. then again, when you see the sale prices for hosts like bluehost and hostgator - well, I started to consider that either my opinion was wrong, or my definition of "bottom feeder" was wrong
excellent post Tony !!
its funny you said this, because I simply suggested a plan which would utilize this technology to present clear limits - and got absolutely flamed for it..
Imagine a plan sold and marketed - right on the buy page as:
5GB Disk
Unlimited Bandwidth
"X" CPU
"X" RAM
"X" IO
$x
WHT powers simply said no (well, they said worse then no, but, lets avoid that drama ) - which seems absurd - its more fair then almost everything else they allow. Again, their forum, their rules, so - whatever.. but, just seems strange.
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08-27-2012, 06:54 PM #194Web Hosting Master
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Earlier in this thread I quoted a "limited host" TOS (#47 http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showpo...count=47)which included the same fair-usage clauses that unlimited hosts are supposedly not allowed to use. Here is another one, from a well-respected limited host that complements what you are saying:
Unlimited domains refer to sub domains, parked domains and add-on domains. In all cases (even those described as “unlimited”), the Services are intended for normal use only, and any activity that results in excessive usage that is inconsistent with normal usage patterns is strictly prohibited {Host] reserves the right to suspend, discontinue or delete the accounts of Users whose use of unlimited sub domains, parked domains and add-on domains results in or presents the risk of degradation of service to other customers, regardless of the amount of domains included in the User’s plan
In addition.....
Hosting space is intended for normal use only, and is limited to Web files, active e-mail and content of the hosted Web sites, not for storage (whether of media, e-mails, or other data). Hosting space further may not be used as offsite storage of electronic files, electronic mail or FTP hosts.
Apparently its ok to have "hidden limits" that can restrict you from using all of a small disk quota, but its not ok for an unlimited host to use them to restrict you from using the entire hard drive. And if limited hosting is immune from the pitfalls of unlimited hosting, why is this type of TOS necessary in the first place? Why limit the limited? Where are the self-appointed consumer advocates now?
Such is the hypocrisy and double-standards of the anti-unlimited crowd as they offer unlimited domains + unlimited emails + unlimited databases.Last edited by Collabora; 08-27-2012 at 07:09 PM.
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08-27-2012, 07:01 PM #195Web Hosting Master
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This ^^
As I was reading through this thread it was already what I was thinking by the end of Terry's opener.
I would even go a step further and say that WHT is more a place for that mass market which in the main consists of complaints, end user chat, the "I want it cheap" brigade and the "how do I do..." folks.
It is not a place for innovation although the people to create and drive that innovation are certainly here. But if you were one of those people that had a market changing idea would you be sharing it here?
You could say that OnApp has come from the WHT crowd but I am not so sure it was an innovation that was developed as a result of WHT directly.
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08-27-2012, 07:38 PM #196Web Hosting Master
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See that is a very good point, but I have never heard of a customer complaining because they couldn't create a quarter of a million email accounts. I have heard a lot and on a regular basis of customers being suspended from using their unlimited hard disk space. I think it would be great if a host could limit CPU and other resources so that they could sell unlimited and the customer not be able to go over that. But in reality it wouldn't work because most customers wouldn't understand it and some hosts would abuse it.
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08-27-2012, 08:05 PM #197Web Hosting Master
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I actually think that the nature of WHT forces innovation. If you want to make it in a commoditized and transparent market place like WHT - under the scrutiny of the WHT mods - you really have to be innovative.
Only by coming up with new ways of breaking barriers and turning business models up side down can you actually really succeed in the WHT world.
Though, I honestly think that innovation is overrated, especially in the hosting industry. There are so many great life-style hosters out here. Making a great living, supporting their family and doing something they love.
The hosting industry has really low entry barriers. It's fairly easy making a good living and we should appreciate that - however, it's really hard to break through from good to great, because you have to truly innovate to make a difference.
DLast edited by eming; 08-27-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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08-27-2012, 08:29 PM #198Retired Moderator
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I am missing something though. How did WHT stop the thought leadership trio of Jacob, Brendan and Nick exactly?
I would humbly suggest that there are some other though leaders that are not mentioned that I would look to first (no knock on these three - but you may as well include Jason Scales in that...) and those like Cloudflare certainly forged ahead with little resistance from us. When they were ready to have it scrutinized by all the "experts" at WHT they came here I suppose.
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08-28-2012, 03:08 PM #199
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08-28-2012, 03:32 PM #200
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