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  1. #126
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    Well boyz, it was a nice run. But when someone quotes post #6 without reading any of the 115 posts after that its time to quit. Thank you for your time.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon-e-mouse View Post
    How is that innovative? Gazillions of hosts have been offering this for years, but I could probably count on one hand those who are still around to tell the success tale
    Well said.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    That you have to invent a scenario, and an extreme one at that, to prove your point only strengthens my argument. Show me such a site suitable for a shared hosting environment that was removed for reasons that would not be found on a limited plan. This is nothing but a straw-man argument. Look it up.
    It's not a straw man if it's been done before.

    My scenario, no matter how 'extreme' , to you, is very true, and a cautionary tale of why this shouldn't be allowed. I have met PLENTY of people that got suckered into this lie, only to be booted when they tried to USE that unlimited space and refused to upgrade their plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by anon-e-mouse View Post
    How is that innovative? Gazillions of hosts have been offering this for years, but I could probably count on one hand those who are still around to tell the success tale
    How much is a gazillion ? Is that more or less than a quadrillion?

    I think this oncept has probably been argued longer than I've been around WHT, or very close to that. Te play it safe rule always works here. If it looks like a scam, smells like a scam and walks like a scam, it must be a scam!

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0 View Post
    All it comes down to is one host is telling the customer upfront they can use 5GB, or 10GB, or whatever the limit is. That's simple and makes a lot of sense.
    In a nutshell.
    If it's marketing you want, I'd go as far as stating "unmetered", as long as it's within a finite amount. IE: "You get up to 5TB per month, unmetered" (though a misnomer, since you'd have to measure/meter it to know when that was hit. )
    Realism, 2012 or not.

    As to lifetime offers?
    No way. You sell me one, and I fully expect it to last forever, not just until the unsustainability of such plans causes the demise of your company. I've seen them come and go, mostly go.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by morrisonhosting View Post
    Just to add, if I put a hosting offer up as Quotaless, I'm fairly sure it would get removed, would it not?
    Just to add, it would get removed.

    The specific line of the rules (posted as Announcements in Advertising forum categories) states something similar to the following (dependent upon which Advertising category you're viewing)
    Quote Originally Posted by 'DEDICATED HOSTING OFFERS' FORUM RULES

    No unlimited/unmetered space, unlimited bandwidth, or lifetime plan offers. Posting such offers will lead to your post being removed and may cause your account to be suspended.
    Unmetered bandwidth offers are allowed but must include a clear bandwidth cap.
    It wouldn't matter what verbiage you use to post such offers.

  6. #131
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    Makes sense.

    Unlimited anything is a scam.

    Unmetered transfer, for example, on a link XMbps in size, is sensible.

  7. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    Just to add, it would get removed.

    The specific line of the rules (posted as Announcements in Advertising forum categories) states something similar to the following (dependent upon which Advertising category you're viewing)It wouldn't matter what verbiage you use to post such offers.
    so, if you dont mind - let me ask you a question.. please understand, I am not trying to be confrontational.. I dont like unlimited plans, and if you look at our model, we are the furthest thing away from it. Having said this, we were considering a change, and based on your rules, it might not be allowed here.

    so, on our plans - we have

    xGB disk + xGB bandwidth = whatever $

    for each plan, we also list specific resource limitations (ie 0.60 CPU, 128MB RAM and 5% IO for example).

    so, if we were to launch plans that said

    2 GB Disk
    Unlimited Bandwidth
    0.60 CPU
    256 MB RAM
    5% IO

    for whatever $'s

    to me, the resource limits would imply a bandwidth limit - ie) use as much bandwidth as you want within those resource limits. If you figure out how to push 5TB of bandwidth with those resource limits - all the power to you. If you have a heavy script, those resources may only allow you to push 50GB bandwidth.

    that would be banned here?

  8. #133
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    Rather than imply a limit, why not specify the uplink?

  9. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by dediserve View Post
    Rather than imply a limit, why not specify the uplink?
    so now specifying hard server resource limits is also just an "implied" limit?

    remember, I am speaking shared hosting here..

    we have moved to a complete resource based model. everything from a $10 shared hosting account up to a complex, multi server cluster - in our model, is based on hard resources.

    shared hosting goes up to almost a full CPU and 1GB RAM. VPS/Cloud goes up to 8 CPUs and 24-48GB RAM, dedicated servers to 24 CPU and 128GB RAM, complex clusters go higher, etc..

    throughout our model, except in shared - bandwidth is measured mostly by port speed and/or larger ports with GB restrictions, etc..

    point is, in shared hosting, there really isnt a reasonable method of accomplishing this. so, people with big heavy scripts get the same bandwidth as those with very light resource requirements.

    a) this costs us business
    b) why should people with light resource requirements not be able to use more bandwidth - when really, all we care about is the hard server resources

  10. #135
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    You stated the resources implied a limit - not I. My point was, to avoid the 'unlimited' tag, why not just say 'shared 100Mbps uplink' kind of thing.

  11. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by dediserve View Post
    You stated the resources implied a limit - not I. My point was, to avoid the 'unlimited' tag, why not just say 'shared 100Mbps uplink' kind of thing.
    I see, you're right.. I did use the "implied" first.. my bad

    re port speed - why would we say shared Gbps port or whatever? people would still ask, how much bandwidth do I get?

    besides, I think that would be more misleading - dont you? I mean no one with 128MB RAM allocation is going to be able to push 10G or Gbps right?

    anyway, to my original point, I still want to hear from the powers that be if my proposed model would be banned here. that is to say

    2 GB Disk
    Unlimited Bandwidth
    0.60 CPU
    256 MB RAM
    5% IO

    for whatever $'s

    because if this above would be banned - this is an example of the sort of "stifling innovation" the OP is talking about. We invested heavily to be able to provide a shared model based on hard server resource limits - and to provide a pure and clean and easily understandable way for people to upgrade through shared hosting and eventually into isolated instances. Cant think of how to make it any easier to understand.. but, in order for this model to really work, we kinda need to use that dreaded "unlimited" word with respect to bandwidth - of course - within clearly defined hard server resource limits (can see how clearly defined here - http://www.cartikahosting.com/linux-...hosting-plans/)

    so again, my question is - would that be banned?

  12. #137
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    Honestly, I would call it unlimited data transfer and then just define the uplink speed.

    Its so often misused but bandwidth = uplink speed. Data transfer is the right term for what most people mislabel bandwidth.

    I'm not sure what the current rules say for this but I am all for unlimited data transfer being allowed on shared hosting when the port speed is defined.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    that would be banned here?
    Yes, it would. Math aside, unlimited is unlimited and disallowed.

  14. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by layer0 View Post
    I am all for unlimited data transfer being allowed on shared hosting when the port speed is defined.
    well, heres the issue. we cant reasonably advertise shared hosting for $10 with an unmetered 10G or Gbps port, while then selling $100+ VPS servers with unmetered 10 Mbps ports. it makes zero sense and would just cause more confusion then you are trying to solve. the idea is an easily understood, scalable, resource based solution - from $10/month accounts to $10,000/month accounts..

    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    Yes, it would. Math aside, unlimited is unlimited and disallowed.
    well, there lies the issue.

    listen, I understand the challenges WHT faces and I for one, think you guys do a wonderful job. but, its hard to argue with the original poster here - this is an archaic rule. at the time, it was meant to try and protect consumers - which I understand completely. heck, the technology we are using today to try and deliver the proposed model didnt even exist back when this rule was made.

    having said this, the rule is clearly stifling new concepts and new ways to do business. My proposed model

    2 GB Disk
    Unlimited Bandwidth
    0.60 CPU
    256 MB RAM
    5% IO

    for whatever $'s
    is something completely new and different - no one else, as far as I know is doing it. and Im sorry, its a better, more consumer friendly and more fair model then 90% of shared hosting offers you do allow on this forum.. people buy shared hosting with whatever disk/bandwidth allocations, and its a guessing game (or hidden away in the TOS) how many resources they actually get and when they will be suspended for resource abuse - which kinda seems like what this policy was trying to protect consumers against right? so, seems to me, this has become a war of attrition more so then whats right for the consumer at this point.. unless you can show me how our proposed model is worse for the consumer then anything else you allow for example - and if you can show that, Ill abandon it completely and without question...

    anywho - Im not ultimately going to base our model on WHT rules - so, I guess I really dont care. I would not have ever brought this up, but, someone else did and it seemed like a reasonable discussion point.

    thanks for your time Bear

  15. #140
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    You can't advertise 'unlimited bandwidth', as, guess what? Your bandwidth has limits. JUST like drives have limits, your bandwidth has limits. Whether it's a 10m/s port, a 1g/s port, or whatever. The term for THAT would be unmetered, not unlimited.

  16. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by linux-tech View Post
    You can't advertise 'unlimited bandwidth', as, guess what? Your bandwidth has limits. JUST like drives have limits, your bandwidth has limits. Whether it's a 10m/s port, a 1g/s port, or whatever. The term for THAT would be unmetered, not unlimited.
    Hello,

    I am trying to be reasonable here - and if you spent some time and researched us - you would see that over the years we have been the primary proponents against "unlimited" models. but, frankly, and I apologize here - but, you arent making sense.

    unlimited with known restrictions is perfectly acceptable.

    with cell phones for example, they advertise unlimited minutes correct? well, its really not unlimited, because # of minutes in a day acts as a limit correct? do you insist they market it as "unmetered" minutes? how does that make it any better?

    ok, so for hosting - people advertise "unlimited domains" - is it really unlimited? well, of course not, its limited by the amount of disk space you are allotted - ie as many domains as you can fit within a specific unit of space.. do you or anyone else advertise "unmetered domains"??

    so, how is offering "unlimited bandwidth" in a plan with a clearly defined limit for CPU, RAM and IO any different?

    and frankly, "unmetered" is the wrong word here. we are not giving shared hosting customers an unmetered Gbps or 10G connection. What we are proposing is to give them as much bandwidth as they can use within a specified amount of CPU, RAM and disk IO. Can you please explain, under these conditions - how its any different then unlimited domains?

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    unlimited with known restrictions is perfectly acceptable.
    No, it's not
    Unlimited with limits is a lie. It's a cheap parlor trick, bait and switch, nothing more.

    Change the meaning of the word (or try to) all youwant, but the word unlimited means , without limits. So, neither hard drive, nor network speed can be unlimited. The word unmetered CAN be used for bandwidth, however.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    Yes, it would. Math aside, unlimited is unlimited and disallowed.
    Would unmetered or No-Quota be disallowed too? Or even "Unlimited 100mbps"?

    I understand disallowing unlimited but in cartikas case, it's a term that sounds best. There are likely ways to get around the unlimited rule with different terms but from a marketing standpoint, unlimited likely sounds best and doesn't potentially hinder sales.

  19. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by linux-tech View Post
    No, it's not
    Unlimited with limits is a lie. It's a cheap parlor trick, bait and switch, nothing more.

    Change the meaning of the word (or try to) all youwant, but the word unlimited means , without limits. So, neither hard drive, nor network speed can be unlimited. The word unmetered CAN be used for bandwidth, however.
    I apologize, but where did you get the concept that "unlimited" is a bait and switch, etc.. thats a pretty serious accusation..

    considering that here in Canada, the CRTC has ruled that selling "unlimited minutes" for a phone company is perfectly acceptable since minutes clearly have a natural limit. The US Federal Government has ruled in a similar manner.

    so, I have to ask you - how are you deciding and determining, that unlimited, with known limits - is a "cheap parlor trick" or a "bait and switch and nothing more" - when federal agencies have determined otherwise?

    personally, its a little offensive, as it seems you are accusing us of potentially acting unethically with our proposed model - when all established legal precedents seem to indicate otherwise...

    I think what you need to realize is that the technology today is different then the technology of 10 years ago.. now that we have the capability to limit bandwidth, with natural borders, in shared hosting - selling unlimited bandwidth now - WITH those clearly defined borders - is no different then selling unlimited minutes or unlimited domains...

    and for the record - unmetered is indeed the wrong term for this - as we arent proposing to offer unmetered ports in shared hosting...

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    Hello,

    unlimited with known restrictions is perfectly acceptable.

    with cell phones for example, they advertise unlimited minutes correct? well, its really not unlimited, because # of minutes in a day acts as a limit correct? do you insist they market it as "unmetered" minutes? how does that make it any better?

    ok, so for hosting - people advertise "unlimited domains" - is it really unlimited? well, of course not, its limited by the amount of disk space you are allotted - ie as many domains as you can fit within a specific unit of space.. do you or anyone else advertise "unmetered domains"??

    so, how is offering "unlimited bandwidth" in a plan with a clearly defined limit for CPU, RAM and IO any different?

    ...Can you please explain, under these conditions - how its any different then unlimited domains?
    I am afraid your well reasoned and rational explanation of unlimited in the real world is falling on deaf ears. I have explained this a hundred times, several times here to linux-tech in various forms. The anti-unlimited mentality is like a religion, and like many religions is stagnant, has its own set of double standards and hypocrisy.

    Like you pointed out, while declaring there is no such thing as unlimited the anti-unlimited clergy offer up unlimited domains, unlimited email and unlimited databases while actually restricting them by other means than a direct quota. But their religion will not allow others to offer unlimited disk quota for a web site while restricting the size of that web site by other means (e.g., purpose, inodes, etc). Any deviation from their orthodoxy is heresy and you are branded a liar, a scammer and a fraud if you practice your version of unlimited.

    The only thing left to do is offer your own unlimited plan -- even if its under a different brand -- and bury them. Sorry if I seem harsh but the time for words are over
    Last edited by Collabora; 08-25-2012 at 06:08 PM.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    b) why should people with light resource requirements not be able to use more bandwidth - when really, all we care about is the hard server resources
    Then it sounds like your plans need to be based on hard server resource usage and not things like bandwidth and drive space. Or say things like "Use as much space as you want up to 100GB!" or "Use as much bandwidth as you can on our 100Mbit shared port!"

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    I apologize, but where did you get the concept that "unlimited" is a bait and switch, etc.. thats a pretty serious accusation..
    The word isn't bait and siwtch, using it to lure customers in, and then delivering them something else is exactly what bait and switch is

  23. #148
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    The point here is that "we" are all sick of "your" customers coming here and bitching when they get scammed by you. Whether they should have known better or not. If the scammers and liars are weeded out then we won't have to hear about it as much.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by linux-tech View Post
    The word isn't bait and siwtch, using it to lure customers in, and then delivering them something else is exactly what bait and switch is
    A better word is fraud. How's that for serious?

  25. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by WII-Aaron View Post
    Then it sounds like your plans need to be based on hard server resource usage and not things like bandwidth and drive space. Or say things like "Use as much space as you want up to 100GB!" or "Use as much bandwidth as you can on our 100Mbit shared port!"

    Hello WII-Aaron - thank you for your reasonable and well thought out response.

    Im afraid that

    "Use as much bandwidth as you can on our 100Mbit shared port!""

    is a) more confusing then my proposed wording
    b) makes for messy adverts and marketing pages
    c) not exactly accurate

    does your cell phone company advertise "use as many minutes as you can in a day"? or do they advertise "unlimited minutes"?

    do hosting providers advertise "use as many domains as you can within your diskspace"? or do they advertise "unlimited domains"?

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