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  1. #76
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    Forget limited and unlimited, how's offering lifetime plans are sustainable? Unless I am planning to charge atleast 20+ years total (still might not be a great idea) or planning to ditch those lifetime clients by making crazy Tos or other things.

    --Roel.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by elroel View Post
    Forget limited and unlimited, how's offering lifetime plans are sustainable? Unless I am planning to charge atleast 20+ years total (still might not be a great idea) or planning to ditch those lifetime clients by making crazy Tos or other things.

    --Roel.
    Ya it seems like (depending on the price) you would quickly start loosing money on the backup space alone.

    This scenario NEVER works out.

    Good read: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may...icket-20120506

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by HC-Ro View Post
    Ya it seems like (depending on the price) you would quickly start loosing money on the backup space alone.

    This scenario NEVER works out.

    Good read: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may...icket-20120506

    Exactly! and soon this industry will have Big Govt. regulating it too. Enjoy it while it lasts, we already see attempts to muscle into the internet.

    I see legit companys dealing with reality setting industry standards, in every aspect of business, and you always see Govt. regulators in the fine print. ( You can't eat that, its not healty, Silence please, Super Size Me) Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by SkunkEyes; 08-23-2012 at 11:42 PM.

  4. #79
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    (continued) Also, think of it like this, if a wild west scenerio, when enough customer complaints come from bad business deals, or misleading information, watchdog groups will come against the industry on behalf of the populous, and demand regulations be imposed.

    Side note: I had a friend that went for a local chicken franchise that offered "All you Can Eat Chicken" (unlimited??) well this guy sat and ate for 4 hours.... They kicked him out. But it wasn't all he could eat, He was limited by the resources of the vendor, lol, they ran out of chicken...

  5. #80
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    I do think some of the rules would have to change to adapt to future ideas and tech that we webhosts will be using in the future. Currently, even though I'm perfectly fine with unlimited or quota-less plans if restrictions are clearly posted, I do feel the rules are okay thinking about it more.

    When cloud hosting and cluster hosting becoming the standard, unlimited space would still be impossible by what everyone says here, but is much easier when it comes to increasing space and performance for the servers on the clustered storage or SAN. Then some of the restrictions should be let go. At least unlimited bandwidth.

    To add another viewpoint that I didn't see here. I believe the no unlimited rule and all of the advertising rules in general were implemented in such a way so that we small and medium business owners aren't having to compete directly on this forum with the web hosting unlimited giants such as goddaddy, hostgator, 1and1, eig, etc.

    Which is certainly a good thing. It wouldn't be fair to simply ban certain hosts because of their size but the advertising restrictions the way they are do allow for more chances for smaller hosts to spread their name with a decent chance.


    That said, if you have an innovating idea that required something such as unlimited space or bandwidth or something that is against the rules, purchase a banner advertisement and do so that way.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    even I know that in linux setting up a user with a disk quota = 0 is the same as No Limit which is the same as unlimited.
    Which is a flat out lie

    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    This can be done on any size hard drive. Thus to claim unlimited disk quota requires unlimited hard drive is the lie
    You're going to twist this however you want, but the reality is that you are in fact lying when you claim to offer 'unlimited storage' and do not provide it.

    Let's say person X signs up for provider Y's unlimited space plan for $5/month. Obviously, anyone with any brains knows this is a scam, but this is a scam and, sadly it gets people sucked in.

    A few weeks into the subscriber's account, they try to actually use unlimited space. You know, by storing things that are legal to store, but take up massive space. Eventually, the hard drive fails. Uh oh, the provider LIED. They don't actually HAVE unlimited space to offer, now, do they?

    This is a lie, a scam. A better way to put this would be bait and switch. Sucker that customer in for something , then give them something completely different. It's horrific and despicable.

  7. #82
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    Good Thread :)

    This is a good thread. I'm not a believer in unlimited, but I have seen good companies that offer them fairly and works good.

    Now to the point:
    What about to allow Unlimited hosting specifying increase rate allowed. Let me explain before you go mad and negative:

    Example 1:

    10.99 $ / mo

    Unlimited Disk space / increase rate allowed: 15% /monthly from 10GB Initial Start. In this case it doesn't matter what the guy store if its legal is allowed. If the guy increase 15% every month in excess to 10GB that's ok, that's allowed. 15% increase every month, will be considered an unlimited disk space (virtually, don't get it literal, don't be closed mind), with an increase cap monthly. Is like internet and ISPs, its unlimited, but if you pass x mark your speed will be lower until next month.

    Case 2 for Bandwidth:
    Unlimited BW at 100Mbps with a max initial of 5TB, and 15% of increase monthly. In case of excess (more than 15% increase), port will be changed to 10Mbps until next month.

    For both cases the customer starts the next month with 15% extra allotment to the past month if they used or exceed the allowed increase.

    The percent mark will be decided by the host of course. Also the start amount.

    I know there is an issue with the control panels for this, they just allow fixed sizes or unlimited. This can be solved by making the customer request the extra needed, or by notifying they will receive more traffic and will need more resources.

    I truly believe that if this get implement , it will work good, but if its unlimited it should cost more than a limited one. What can be implemented to limit scams is to put a price limit. Since unlimited means more the price is supposed to be higher, then for example all prices in offers for shared hosting should be above 10 dollars/mo. Or above 15. That can be discussed. This limitation is just for forum listing.

    If unlimited shared hosting is illegal in the forum, then so those cheap as hell vps with lot of space and unlimited or a lot of bandwidth with hidden limits. A customer will never use all the amount offered in a 5$ vps with a lot of hell HD or BW, before being shutdown. So is equally scam.

    Congrats Terry for a good thread.

    Peace.

  8. #83
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    linux-tech quoted me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    .....even I know that in linux setting up a user with a disk quota = 0 is the same as No Limit which is the same as unlimited.
    And then responded

    Quote Originally Posted by linux-tech View Post
    Which is a flat out lie
    But what do we make of this:

    *** Report for user quotas on device /dev/md3
    Block grace time: 7days; Inode grace time: 7days
    Block limits File limits
    User used soft hard grace used soft hard grace
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    root -- 32836 0 0 4 0 0
    ed -- 6617996 6900000 7000000 17397 0 0
    deb -- 788068 0 0 11509 0 0
    matt -- 44 0 0 11 0 0


    Users with limit set to 0 are set with No Limits. Thus these disk quotas are unlimited.

    This was done on a standard hard drive -- there is no such thing as an unlimited hard drive. Thus unlimited hard drive is not required for unlimited disk quota. Don't let anyone try to tell you different.

    QED

  9. #84
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    Wow, I can't believe you are even arguing this.

    The absence of quota does not mean you have unlimited space. Everybody is still confined by the hard disk on the server.

    No limit on quota != Unlimited Storage

    QED

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0 View Post
    Wow, I can't believe you are even arguing this.

    The absence of quota does not mean you have unlimited space. Everybody is still confined by the hard disk on the server.

    No limit on quota != Unlimited Storage

    QED
    No one is claiming unlimited physical space except for the people against unlimited hosting. Hosting plans are created in terms of quota. The user accounts are created by OS in terms of quota.The unlimited host is following the system. Keep in context. Its the quota that is unlimited not the physical drive. Impostion of quota lmit is an act of the provider -- its the provider creating the limit and its that quota limit which is removed creating unlimited disk space quota
    Last edited by Collabora; 08-24-2012 at 02:49 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    But you offer unlimited email + unlimited databases on unlimited sites. That requires unlimited disk space. Yet you don't offer unlimited disk space. How does that clarify the situation with the lay-shopper who is unaware of the concept of disk aggregation?
    You are missing the point here.

    I am not anti-unlimited like you claimed. You are pro-unlimited because you are a reseller/glorified affiliate of GoDaddy, which offers unlimited space and bandwidth plans.

    I am supportive of all providers listing limits and information like CPU, RAM, MySQL Concurrent Connections, Number of Accounts Per Server, Server Specifications etc on their web hosting page and on their WHT advertisements.

    If such limits are properly shown and revealed, I am not against unlimited space and bandwidth plans being offered at WHT.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    But you offer unlimited email + unlimited databases on unlimited sites. That requires unlimited disk space. Yet you don't offer unlimited disk space. How does that clarify the situation with the lay-shopper who is unaware of the concept of disk aggregation?
    Sorry, but the average consumer is not this stupid.

    Email, databases and sites are ways to use your space. At very least, people know that sites are built from files, and that files take up disk space. Furthermore, the meters in your panel show a calculation of usage. In cPanel, it's on the right side of every cPanel page. Those calculations include email and database space used.

    To limit emails, domains and databases would be arbitrary and utterly retarded. It would be similar to your utility company limiting the number of ice cubes you're allowed to use from your water service each month. It's absolute nonsense.

    As I've explained before, resources are hardware -- and hardware has limits, and resources are therefore finite. Email, databases, sites, lolcat images, etc -- NOT hardware, therefore NOT resources, there NO REASON to limit them.

    The only people limiting these things are either
    (A) Trying to sell tiny plans with limited content use in mind.
    (B) Trying to sell BS "unlimited" plans, and then trying to find ways to limit its usage.

    In both cases, the limits are present to limit usage in ways that may not be necessary. The first method is arguable, while the second one is just counteracting an initial marketing lie of "unlimited". Such things are often counterproductive to the way the technology actually operates in 2012. It's also counter to the way people want to use hosting in 2012. It's why hosts with 1-domain plans are losing business, and at the same time while large unlimited hosts are getting flack by experienced users for the hidden arbitrary limits.

    The only soft limit that can sanely be argued is the need for limiting domains -- but even then, it should be sensible. There are legitimate value-added reasons that a host limits certain accounts to a single domain (or just a few domains).

    There's really no legitimate argument for "unlimited" hosting, aside from suckering consumers to make more money.

    If faux unlimited hosts were forced to advertise all of their limits up front in big print (not fine print), I think we'd find far fewer people using them. That's the only way I'd support WHT allowing unlimited hosts. Note that a few unlimited hosts do an admirable job of actually supplying users with quality services -- namely JaguarPC and Froghost -- and with very little fine print.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    No one is claiming unlimited physical space except for the people against unlimited hosting. Hosting plans are created in terms of quota. The user accounts are created by OS in terms of quota.The unlimited host is following the system. Keep in context. Its the quota that is unlimited not the physical drive. Impostion of quota lmit is an act of the provider -- its the provider creating the limit and its that quota limit which is removed creating unlimited disk space quota
    Not this again... This is a worse argument then the unlimited disk one.

    Quote Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
    If faux unlimited hosts were forced to advertise all of their limits up front in big print (not fine print), I think we'd find far fewer people using them. That's the only way I'd support WHT allowing unlimited hosts. Note that a few unlimited hosts do an admirable job of actually supplying users with quality services -- namely JaguarPC and Froghost -- and with very little fine print.
    ^ This. That's what I want. But, clearly provided limits if the plan is called unlimited is against the rules unless I'm mistaken.

  14. #89
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    All I keep hearing is 'unlimited will have a fair use clause blah blah blah'.......

    Fair Use!? Who is it fair for? It shouldn't matter how a customer is using your service or what they are storing on your service as long as it isn't against the LAW. If you can't feasibly host customers on an unlimited plan without HIDING the true limits in a fair use clause then you should just be telling the customers up front what their limits are......

    Or would this hurt the whole point of unlimited? To prey on people that aren't as knowledgeable about the industry and sucker them in to your unlimited scheme.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by YDGH-Corey View Post
    All I keep hearing is 'unlimited will have a fair use clause blah blah blah'.......

    Fair Use!? Who is it fair for? It shouldn't matter how a customer is using your service or what they are storing on your service as long as it isn't against the LAW. If you can't feasibly host customers on an unlimited plan without HIDING the true limits in a fair use clause then you should just be telling the customers up front what their limits are......

    Or would this hurt the whole point of unlimited? To prey on people that aren't as knowledgeable about the industry and sucker them in to your unlimited scheme.
    As a former hosting consumer, it really hurts me when you think I'm so stupid, I don't read the TOS. That really hurts.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by morrisonhosting View Post
    As a former hosting consumer, it really hurts me when you think I'm so stupid, I don't read the TOS. That really hurts.
    Well fair use clause would be seperate from the terms of service so even if you did read that .......

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by YDGH-Corey View Post
    Well fair use clause would be seperate from the terms of service so even if you did read that .......
    From my experience the Fair Use information is typically found in the TOS.

    Random TOS from Google: http://www.ixwebhosting.com/terms-of-service#q4

  18. #93
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    I highly doubt WHT's rules and restrictions on Unlimited is preventing industry leaders from innovation. Industry leaders aren't/shouldn't be reliant on WebHostingTalk for innovation to begin with.

  19. #94
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    If there was unlimited, wouldn't the big hosts be able to put some software on servers that limited CPU usage and had control panels that didn't let you upload file types that they don't allow?

    No they don't do this because they need an excuse for suspending peoples accounts who use too much bandwidth or web space. Probably less than a limited provider ....

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by HintonHost View Post
    If there was unlimited, wouldn't the big hosts be able to put some software on servers that limited CPU usage
    Many do these days.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orien View Post
    Many do these days.
    CloudLinux OS, 1H Hive, LiteSpeed, etc.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by YDGH-Corey View Post
    All I keep hearing is 'unlimited will have a fair use clause blah blah blah'.......

    Fair Use!? Who is it fair for? It shouldn't matter how a customer is using your service or what they are storing on your service as long as it isn't against the LAW. If you can't feasibly host customers on an unlimited plan without HIDING the true limits in a fair use clause then you should just be telling the customers up front what their limits are......

    Or would this hurt the whole point of unlimited? To prey on people that aren't as knowledgeable about the industry and sucker them in to your unlimited scheme.
    Its the same type fair-use clause limited hosts use in their TOS/AUP, just a couple more items added such as purpose and inodes. This is acceptable standard practice to maintain the integrity of server in a shared hosting environment

    You have one too:








    4. Usage
    • Any shared services abusing disk I/O or causing load issues for other customers on the server will be suspended and notified.
    • Any reseller account found abusing the backup feature will have the feature disabled and notified.
    • We reserve the right to disallow the use of any service that could be used for spamming such as IRC.
    • The following is a list of stricly prohibited services
      • Bitcoin
      • PTP File Sharing
      • Torrenting
      • Proxy
    • We reserve the right to block/filter or throttle ports and/or ip address ranges at our discretion. This may include blocking port 6667(IRC) , denying access from known spamming IP address range, and limiting the speed of certain traffic types such as VOIP, Shoutcast, or Proxy.
    Why is it ok for you to do this but not unlimited hosts? Your first item will limit 99.9% of legit web sites suitable for a shared hositng environment from using too much space. Isn't that how you get away with offering 1TB Master Reseller Plans?
    Last edited by Collabora; 08-24-2012 at 11:20 AM.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    Its the same type fair-use clause limited hosts use in their TOS/AUP, just a couple more items added such as purpose and inodes. This is acceptable standard practice to maintain the integrity of server in a shared hosting environment

    You have one too:





    4. Usage
    • Any shared services abusing disk I/O or causing load issues for other customers on the server will be suspended and notified.
    • Any reseller account found abusing the backup feature will have the feature disabled and notified.
    • We reserve the right to disallow the use of any service that could be used for spamming such as IRC.
    • The following is a list of stricly prohibited services
      • Bitcoin
      • PTP File Sharing
      • Torrenting
      • Proxy
    • We reserve the right to block/filter or throttle ports and/or ip address ranges at our discretion. This may include blocking port 6667(IRC) , denying access from known spamming IP address range, and limiting the speed of certain traffic types such as VOIP, Shoutcast, or Proxy.
    Why is it ok for you to do this but not unlimited hosts?
    Because a lot of unlimited hosts use it as an excuse for people using too much bandwidth or web space. You don't deal with the user support I believe.
    Last edited by StadenHosting; 08-24-2012 at 11:20 AM. Reason: Thought I might have been a bit rude.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by HintonHost View Post
    Because a lot of unlimited hosts use it as an excuse for people using too much bandwidth or web space. You don't deal with the user support I believe.
    I deal with a lot of user support. been doing it for about a dozen years. You don't know me, but I know servers and users. I can point out a lot of shady limited hosts practices but that doesn't mean the rest of them can't have a TOS/AUP. Your argument is a red herring anyway. Has nothing to do with the post I was responding to.

  25. #100
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    Since this has turned into a pure unlimited vs limited debate with the hosts offering unlimited successfully saying it's good and the limited smaller hosts saying it's bad, maybe we can turn the discussion into "
    Code:
    Are there any new services are innovations out or coming out that may make unlimited space or bandwidth a suitable service for users?
    "

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