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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    I will say this though, I dont think WHT should be determining what a proper business model is. I say have at it.. at the very least, it will act as a method to further and more clearly differentiate business models. I mean is it really different seeing someone selling 400GB disk, 1TB transfer, alpha reseller with unlimited sub resellers, unlimited accounts for $2.95?
    Andrew, you crafted that statement perfectly, because that's exactly what I want -- the ability for someone to do something different.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    I don't think you are going to understand until you can accept that a web host is not compelled to be a Mozy
    I'm just arguing that disk space is something that is finitely limited and not measured over a period of time like bandwidth/data transfer. It's a VERY different resource allocation. I can see how data transfer can be unlimited, but cannot see a case for unlimited space. Sure, you can rely on the fact that most people won't use much and make it work decently well. But that doesn't change the fact that it will be misleading for some people. I'd prefer not to see the industry go in this direction.

    For example, if I say the customer gets unlimited data transfer and a 10mbps upstream/downstream allocated to their account, that makes perfect sense. They can push as much as they want at the speed of 10mbps. That works out to about 330GB in a month, so it's limited natively. Disk space has nothing to do with time, however. Advertising unlimited space and then putting tons of hard limits (which would NOT be necessary if you didn't give a ridiculous allocation) is confusing for the customer IMO.
    Last edited by layer0; 08-23-2012 at 03:19 AM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0 View Post
    But frankly, how is an HTML document not an electronic file? This wording is stupid, and I'm surprised you don't see that. ... And online storage space, isn't that to some degree what web hosting is in the first place? Sure it's more specialized than that in some ways, but you ARE providing online space at the end of the day as a web host.
    Unlimited hosts purposely use vague language. It gives them lots of leeway to enforce policies at will. Customers are often treated differently. You'll find somebody suspended for having a dozen MP3 files, while another person has 100 and claims everything is "just fine".

    It's ridiculous.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0 View Post
    I'm just arguing that disk space is something that is finitely limited and not measured over a period of time like bandwidth/data transfer. It's a VERY different resource allocation. I can see how data transfer can be unlimited, but cannot see a case for unlimited space. Sure, you can rely on the fact that most people won't use much and make it work decently well. But that doesn't change the fact that it will be misleading for some people. I'd prefer not to see the industry go in this direction.

    For example, if I say the customer gets unlimited data transfer and a 10mbps upstream/downstream allocated to their account, that makes perfect sense. They can push as much as they want at the speed of 10mbps. That works out to about 330GB in a month, so it's limited natively. Disk space has nothing to do with time, however. Advertising unlimited space and then putting tons of hard limits (which would NOT be necessary if you didn't give a ridiculous allocation) is confusing for the customer IMO.

    But this is not an issue for 99.99% of websites suitable for a shared hosting environment. There are just as many customers that are mislead through lack of knowldge of all hosting plans. Due to multi-tiered pricing structure how many buy a 5gb plan when all they need is a 2Gb plan? Many of them will sell additional disk space beyond the quota. Is it misleading to advertise that -- unlimited on the installment plan?

    I can invent just as many scenarios rendering the multi-tiered quota-based plan confusing as you can for unlimited plan. That proves nothing.

    You are applying a double-standard and defining the business based on the 0.01% it may not work for instead of the 99.99% it does. So far the only real-world problem you've been able to come up with is that your pdf archival system had to go on a clustered server instead of a $5/mo unlimited plan -- and then you criticise the unlimited plan host for not allowing that on a shared server environment. Essentially my challenge remains unanswered (I have brougbht it up in other threads), and your argument remains a straw man.
    Last edited by Collabora; 08-23-2012 at 08:50 AM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
    Unlimited hosts purposely use vague language. It gives them lots of leeway to enforce policies at will. Customers are often treated differently. You'll find somebody suspended for having a dozen MP3 files, while another person has 100 and claims everything is "just fine".

    It's ridiculous.
    It's the same thing for any limited host. A client could be hosting a proxy site and you may not notice until they hit a limit and set off a red flag.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    But this is not an issue for 99.99% of websites suitable for a shared hosting environment. There are just as many customers that are mislead through lack of knowldge of all hosting plans. Due to multi-tiered pricing structure how many buy a 5gb plan when all they need is a 2Gb plan? Many of them will sell additional disk space beyond the quota. Is it misleading to advertise that -- unlimited on the installment plan?

    I can invent just as many scenarios rendering the multi-tiered quota-based plan confusing as you can for unlimited plan. That proves nothing.

    You are applying a double-standard and defining the business based on the 0.01% it may not work for instead of the 99.99% it does. So far the only real-world problem you've been able to come up with is that your pdf archival system had to go on a clustered server instead of a $5/mo unlimited plan -- and then you criticise the unlimited plan host for not allowing that on a shared server environment. Essentially my challenge remains unanswered (I have brougbht it up in other threads), and your argument remains a straw man.
    All it comes down to is one host is telling the customer upfront they can use 5GB, or 10GB, or whatever the limit is. That's simple and makes a lot of sense. When you buy a VPS or dedicated server, it's generally a hard limit on disk space too (and go figure, this tends more often to be a realistic limit, and not nearly as oversold as some shared environments are - speaking in terms of VPS).

    When you tell the customer they can use unlimited space, but then have a bunch of fine print limiting that usage, it's a lot more confusing to the customer than to just give them a hard limit. And I am sure this would be confusing to way more than 0.1% of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by morrisonhosting View Post
    It's the same thing for any limited host. A client could be hosting a proxy site and you may not notice until they hit a limit and set off a red flag.
    Except a proxy uses bandwidth, so that'd be naturally limited there, at a "limited" host.

    Other than that, a proxy site shouldn't really slow down the server or harm the other users "too" much. So, I don't see how a proxy is relevant here.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0 View Post
    Except a proxy uses bandwidth, so that'd be naturally limited there, at a "limited" host.

    Other than that, a proxy site shouldn't really slow down the server or harm the other users "too" much. So, I don't see how a proxy is relevant here.
    I'm just saying that proxy's aren't allowed via most TOS and yet one may not notice them on an unlimited or shared host until they throw a flag. Popular proxies are quite hard on CPU from my experience.

  8. #58
    @Collabora - I have recently (last year or so) - come more around to your way of thinking on these sorts of things. Because honestly, you are right. Any provider, regardless of model, could be just as misleading as any other provider. There are good providers, and not good providers - and business model doesnt really matter as much.

    having said this, its hard to argue @layer0's comments re diskspace. It is something different.

    but, even on disk space, which is something we fight against all the time - how does a consumer understand the difference between host a) offering massive disk space on a SATA with no redundancy and no real backups to host b) with raid10, 8 spindles sas, with backups to different raid10 devices, etc.. (extreme examples in both cases to represent both ends of the spectrum)

    the problem really is - as it pertains to this thread - is we dont have rules to specify how a host must have his disk configured and what their model is - its buyer beware. so, why is WHT involved in other areas.. as, even though I dont like the unlimited disk space and bandwidth offerings in shared hosting.. fact remains, there are much worse things going on in this industry then that.. I would rather have a good, stable company with unlimited plans vs a fly by night company with limited plans who cant deliver on those plans at all (again, extreme examples)

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    ...as, even though I dont like the unlimited disk space and bandwidth offerings in shared hosting.. fact remains, there are much worse things going on in this industry then that.. I would rather have a good, stable company with unlimited plans vs a fly by night company with limited plans who cant deliver on those plans at all (again, extreme examples)
    This is exactly the problem. You can have a really well managed unlimited host and they can be well respected, but they can't offer on this forum due to WHT's authoritarian position on the matter.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by morrisonhosting View Post
    limited host
    There's no such thing as a "limited host". That's a term Collabora invented and does his best to inject into the local vernacular. Don't give into it, because it's even more divorced from reality than "unlimited" is.

    You have two kinds of hosts:
    - Those that specify resources.
    - Those that do not. The ones that do not almost always advertise it as "unlimited" and then stuff content-based limits into fine print, and with vague language that is very anti-consumer.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
    There's no such thing as a "limited host". That's a term Collabora invented and does his best to inject into the local vernacular. Don't give into it, because it's even more divorced from reality than "unlimited" is.

    You have two kinds of hosts:
    - Those that specify resources.
    - Those that do not. The ones that do not almost always advertise it as "unlimited" and then stuff content-based limits into fine print, and with vague language that is very anti-consumer.
    I'll define my use of limited host then:

    Any host that puts an artificial limit or quota on resources.

  12. #62
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    kpmedia, I agree with your point. If unlimited hosts actually stated ALL of the restrictions with the plan itself, then that'd be fine. State right on the plan page on your website that there is X% CPU limitation, content type limitation, usage limitation, etc. Only problem then is they won't get nearly as much business as people would realize how much of a bait and switch it really is.

    Quote Originally Posted by morrisonhosting View Post
    I'll define my use of limited host then:

    Any host that puts an artificial limit or quota on resources.
    The PHYSICAL limit of space on a hard disk is anything but artificial, but good try.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0 View Post
    The PHYSICAL limit of space on a hard disk is anything but artificial, but good try.
    What? I said that's my definition of limited host. You know of a host who's quota is the entire hard drive? Please link me.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by morrisonhosting View Post
    an artificial limit or quota on resources.
    That doesn't even make sense.

    A disk, or even an array of disks, has a hard limit. By your logic (definition), all hosts are "limited" hosts, but some choose to lie about it. That's where the "unlimited hard drive" argument comes from -- even if it is silly, it's a silly response to a silly position.

    A "resource", by definition, is finite. Oil, electricity, water, etc. This is why virtually all resources are billed by usage, or put into a "plan" that allocated a maximum usage.

    Ways to use resources are not limits. Limiting a database is artificial, as would be limiting the number of ice cubes you can make with your water utility.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The argument that banning unlimited somehow "stifles innovation" also doesn't make any sense. What innovation?

    Innovation would be --- for an example --- to develop an auto-upgrade plugin to cPanel servers (moderated by host) that would allow space growth, yet in a managed manner. Hosts can advertise the starting limit, and then a feature could be 5GB added increments for free, pending approval. It would even have to be requested -- just something that kicks in at a 4GB usage (assuming 5GB is the starting point).

    Or something like that. (My idea is still rough, but it's a hell of a lot better than "Unlimited, Whheeee! Yeehaw!!!!")

    Innovate that.
    Last edited by kpmedia; 08-23-2012 at 03:40 PM.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
    Or something like that. (My idea is still rough, but it's a hell of a lot better than "Unlimited, Whheeee! Yeehaw!!!!")

    Innovate that.
    Would it be better to you if it was called quotaless and everything was defined? It's a marketing term. If you are going to call hosts offering unlimited unlimited hosts then hosts offering limited plans are limited hosts.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    @Collabora - I have recently (last year or so) - come more around to your way of thinking on these sorts of things. Because honestly, you are right. Any provider, regardless of model, could be just as misleading as any other provider. There are good providers, and not good providers - and business model doesnt really matter as much.
    You are about the only one that has ever given me a rational, non-contradictory reason for not providing it (for the readers: his reasons were based on cost per unit hosting and management considerations).

    but, even on disk space, which is something we fight against all the time - how does a consumer understand the difference between host a) offering massive disk space on a SATA with no redundancy and no real backups to host b) with raid10, 8 spindles sas, with backups to different raid10 devices, etc.. (extreme examples in both cases to represent both ends of the spectrum)
    The typical consumer has no idea. And nor do they care. If they do care they hire a consultant to sort it out, or spend weeks on forums and google search to sort it out themselves. Imagine him looking at 5 prospects each with 3 different multi-tiered quota-based hosting plans. That's 15 hosting plans the poor soul has to sort out; when will he have time to digest the different types of infrastructures that bring about those 15 plans? Now compare that situation with one where each host has a single "unlimited" plan. Which scenario is better for consumer? Which one is more conducive to learning about the finer points of spindles, raid and redundancy?

    That's why my usual advice to them is look for a host that has been around for a few years meeting a payroll. Chances are host (a) above will never make it that far.

    the problem really is - as it pertains to this thread - is we dont have rules to specify how a host must have his disk configured and what their model is - its buyer beware. so, why is WHT involved in other areas.. as, even though I dont like the unlimited disk space and bandwidth offerings in shared hosting.. fact remains, there are much worse things going on in this industry then that.. I would rather have a good, stable company with unlimited plans vs a fly by night company with limited plans who cant deliver on those plans at all (again, extreme examples)
    Unfortunately your extreme example is too common an occurance. I think WHT's interests are more financial then technical. I find it hard to believe that their zealous antipathy toward unlimited hosting while enabling feeble hosts that toe the line is due to lack of hosting and server management knowledge.

    I wrote in another thread that you won't see much innovation in a forum like this. The rules are created to preserve orthodoxy. Most hosts and incipient hosts come here to learn or copy from each other. Inbreeding will never improve the gene pool.

  17. #67
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    Resources limits are NOT a "marketing term". Hard limits actually exist.
    "Unlimited" is a marketing term. And a shady one, at that, when limits are hidden in fine print.
    "Quota-less" is playing semantics.

    How about we innovate the industry by stopping the "unlimited" lie?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
    Resources limits are NOT a "marketing term". Hard limits actually exist.
    "Unlimited" is a marketing term. And a shady one, at that, when limits are hidden in fine print.
    "Quota-less" is playing semantics.

    How about we innovate the industry by stopping the "unlimited" lie?

    Quota-less is just a more acurate term. I never said resouce limits (the physical ones) are a marketing term.

    I think we should strive to offer different types of plans for those with different requirements. What's wrong with offering no quota of disk space if CPU, allowed files, and inodes are clearly defined?

    I really don't think that WHT should have a say in what configuration is right or wrong.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0 View Post
    kpmedia, I agree with your point. If unlimited hosts actually stated ALL of the restrictions with the plan itself, then that'd be fine. State right on the plan page on your website that there is X% CPU limitation, content type limitation, usage limitation, etc. Only problem then is they won't get nearly as much business as people would realize how much of a bait and switch it really is.
    Agreed. Such limits should be clearly shown in the hosting plan page in their website and also in their advertisements at WHT.

    [[[Removed and Removed]]]

    @Mods: You are free to remove the links above if you this is considered as self-promo but I am just trying to show an example and make a point.
    Last edited by SoftWareRevue; 08-25-2012 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Links Removed

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLHC View Post
    Agreed. Such limits should be clearly shown in the hosting plan page in their website
    But you offer unlimited email + unlimited databases on unlimited sites. That requires unlimited disk space. Yet you don't offer unlimited disk space. How does that clarify the situation with the lay-shopper who is unaware of the concept of disk aggregation?

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    But you offer unlimited email + unlimited databases on unlimited sites. That requires unlimited disk space. Yet you don't offer unlimited disk space. How does that clarify the situation with the lay-shopper who is unaware of the concept of disk aggregation?
    well, to be fair here, there is a difference...

    example A - unlimited space, unlimited sites - define

    example B - 2GB space, unlimited sites - define

    the difference is that there is a specified and fairly well understood limit in example B - ie 2GB. so, a rational person could quantify that unlimited sites is limited by that 2GB.

    its exactly like cell phone providers who advertise unlimited weekend minutes for example. well, any rational person would understand that the "unlimited" is limited by the number of minutes in a weekend.

    it is frustrating though - we tried to specify CPU, RAM and IO limits on shared hosting - which are MORE then reasonable. I mean I dont know ANY shared provider giving those sorts of resources to individual accounts in shared hosting - and the general consumer thinks we are giving them less then everybody else and charging more.. (Im not complaining, just stating a fact).

    so, I see why it would be really difficult for people with an "unlimited" model to start posting restriction in their ads - especially when no one else does..

    theres no easy solution - but, since we have gone the route of "buyer beware" anyway - I dont see why we should be restricting providers from advertising whatever they want - and rather, we should spend our efforts educating consumers. Sadly, today - consumers mostly learn through trial and error. I know our entire business and business model is built on the 2nd or 3rd time hosting customer. is) we aim for more savvy customers - those who will better appreciate the value we bring to the table.. but, this doesnt mean I want to ban other models nor think we should ban them - again, we should spend our time educating consumers, not causing further confusion with rules which explicitly promote even more confusion as people get creative to bi-pass forum rules..

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    well, to be fair here, there is a difference...

    example A - unlimited space, unlimited sites - define

    example B - 2GB space, unlimited sites - define

    the difference is that there is a specified and fairly well understood limit in example B - ie 2GB. so, a rational person could quantify that unlimited sites is limited by that 2GB.

    its exactly like cell phone providers who advertise unlimited weekend minutes for example. well, any rational person would understand that the "unlimited" is limited by the number of minutes in a weekend.
    Yes, all that is well and good. But I was using the logic and context of the poster and anti-unlimited crowd who are refusing to see disk space in terms of quota instead of hardware.

    We can similarly say a rational person would know that unlimited space refers to the quota imposed by the provider and not an infinitely large hard drive. Yet, the anti-unlimited crowd contintually beats the "unlimted hard drive" drum.

    I can't begin to tell you how many times a host will spew the "there is no such thing as unlimited" while offering unlimited hosting resources, justifying his while rejecting the same justification for the other.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    We can similarly say a rational person would know that unlimited space refers to the quota imposed by the provider and not an infinitely large hard drive.
    A 'rational person' wouldn't even consider unlimited offers as they are scams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    I can't begin to tell you how many times a host will spew the "there is no such thing as unlimited" while offering unlimited hosting resources, justifying his while rejecting the same justification for the other.
    When it comes to hard drives, there IS no such thing as unlimited. There IS no infinite hard drive. Hard drives have limits, therefore, to say you have "unlimited space available" is, indeed a lie

  24. #74
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    ^^^See what I mean^^^

    And this guy is an actual tech and has probably actually configured quotas so he should know better. I'm a Windows tech and even I know that in linux setting up a user with a disk quota = 0 is the same as No Limit which is the same as unlimited. This can be done on any size hard drive. Thus to claim unlimited disk quota requires unlimited hard drive is the lie
    Last edited by Collabora; 08-23-2012 at 06:35 PM.

  25. #75
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    Obviously you can set no quota on an account. That's really convenient and this functionality exists for a reason. But what customer knows the difference between quota and space?

    Look, we know YOU understand how to look at an unlimited host and figure out what's really being offered and obviously then you will not get the wrong impression. Most of the people in this thread (in fact, maybe even all) understand this very well too. But actual end-users are probably not going to understand this as well. Try explaining to somebody who doesn't know much about hosting what the difference between unlimited disk quota vs unlimited disk space is - I don't think they'll understand without some actual hosting (or Linux) background.

    My point all along is that setting a limit like 5GB disk space is a very distinct and finite limit that makes sense to people. When people go and buy an iPad from Apple, it doesn't come with unlimited space - same for just about any electronic device purchase. People understand very well what a space limitation is - when you tell them that all of a sudden they have unlimited space and put a bunch of limits in the ToS, that's vastly different from saying they can have unlimited sites in the account, or unlimited databases, etc.

    It's all about perception and what is clear to the customer.
    Last edited by layer0; 08-23-2012 at 08:34 PM.

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