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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    You're really kidding yourself if you honestly believe that. Believe me, I could create a site that would use a large amount of storage without triggering any of the TOS triggers you mention. But I do agree that the site would be terminated. Why would it be terminated? Because eventually the site would use an amount of storage that was deemed unacceptable for the price I'm paying. This is the hidden glass box that all "unlimited" hosts must have in place to stay profitable.
    Its not the storage, per se, its what big/active/poorly-coeded websites do to the server regardless of storage. I can put a 250mb site (or even a single page) on a 5GB plan and get kicked off for the same thing. But no one is accusing that host of "hidden limits" or depriving me of what I paid for. Why is it hidden in one host and not the other? Why are limits in the TOS of one host considered "right and proper" but when they are in another host they are "secret and hidden." This is the classic double-standard of so-called hidden limits. Just because there are more people telling one "lie" more often than another does not make it any more truthful.
    Last edited by Collabora; 07-09-2012 at 05:21 PM.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    Its not the storage, per se, its what big/active/poorly-coeded websites do to the server regardless of storage. I can put a 250mb site (or even a single page) on a 5GB plan and get kicked off for the same thing. But no one is accusing that host of "hidden limits" or depriving me of what I paid for. Why is it hidden in one host and not the other? Why are limits in the TOS of one host considered "right and proper" but when they are in another host they are "secret and hidden." This is the classic double-standard of so-called hidden limits.
    Where or when did anyone contend that one is ok while the other isn't?

    Here's what I believe:

    Whatever you/any host uses as the units of measurement to determine whether a hosting account is being used properly should be clearly displayed. Period. You can save the details for legals, but any limits, regardless of type, used to decide whether a client stays or gets shut down, should be noted openly. That doesn't mean you have to deface your advertising with this stuff, but it means it has to be part of the sale in a more meaningful way than a 20-50 page printable TOS/AUP document.

    At the very least, it should be called out within an FAQ and your comparison chart with plans should clearly link to it - something to that effect - something that shows you tried to make it clear what you expect from your clients.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    Its not the storage, per se, its what big/active/poorly-coeded websites do to the server regardless of storage. I can put a 250mb site (or even a single page) on a 5GB plan and get kicked off for the same thing. But no one is accusing that host of "hidden limits" or depriving me of what I paid for. Why is it hidden in one host and not the other? Why are limits in the TOS of one host considered "right and proper" but when they are in another host they are "secret and hidden." This is the classic double-standard of so-called hidden limits. Just because there are more people telling one "lie" more often than another does not make it any more truthful.
    I agree with most of the above. However, the key difference is that a limited host is offering X GBs of storage so long as the sites aren't too active/poorly-coded for shared hosting. Unlimited hosts are offering unlimited storage so long as the sites aren't too active/poorly-coded for shared hosting. But storage costs $$$ bottom line. There will always be a limit regarding file storage because hosting customers pay a limited fee per month.

    The cloud storage model is a completely different animal all together since technically unlimited storage is available at $.XX per GB. This is the only situation where storage is not limited by a box (visible or glass), but instead by the users wallet.

    I would never say that "limited" hosts are 100% "truthful", I don't think anyone here has. Honestly, a host offering 500GB of storage for $10 a month is at worse fault then most "unlimited" hosts. The glass box will be much smaller than 500GB for $10 a month.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    Where or when did anyone contend that one is ok while the other isn't?
    got to go a little higher up I completely agree with what you are saying. It would also be nice and even-handed if limited hosts that offer things like unlimited email explain somewhere -- anywhwere -- the concept of disk aggregation. I haven't seen one host do that. I don't think the customer on the street knows that their unlimited email is limited to the diskspace that is available after their unlimited sites and unlimited databases use the space.
    Last edited by Collabora; 07-09-2012 at 05:47 PM.
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  5. #30
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    Some people appear to be confused about what "resources" are. Again, it goes back to shady hosts. And their lemmings.

    These are resources:
    - hard drives (space and I/O)
    - RAM (including MySQL connections)
    - bandwidth and port speed
    - CPU usage

    These are not resources: databases, domains, emails, FTP, lolcats, etc.

    There's almost no good reason to arbitrarily limit domains, databases, emails, FTP accounts, etc, in 2012. Proper space limits take care of most of it, while LiteSpeed limits the CPU/RAM use of having too many domains that demand too much concurrently.

    There was an analogy in another thread that was quite good, concerning what should and should NOT be limited/unlimited. It demonstrates the foolishness in trying to limit something that doesn't need it.

    - You don't need to limit AC use because you can run out of gas.
    - Or limit radio use because you can run out of battery.
    - Just like you don't need to limit databases or email, because you run out of space.

    Unlimited gas would be a lie.
    Unlimited battery would be a lie.
    Just like promising unlimited space is a lie.

    Some of the best hosts limit resources properly (keyword: PROPERLY), offer unlimited (or reasonable) features within the plans (databases, domains, etc), and then provide suggested traffic stats and other info that shows what plans are best for which needs. So a person with many domains knows not to get the intro level plan.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    I agree with most of the above.

    The cloud storage model is a completely different animal all together since technically unlimited storage is available at $.XX per GB. This is the only situation where storage is not limited by a box (visible or glass), but instead by the users wallet.


    .
    I like to think of cloud storage (and hosting), in the thread's context, is unlimited hosting on the installment plan....
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
    - You don't need to limit AC use because you can run out of gas.
    - Or limit radio use because you can run out of battery.
    - Just like you don't need to limit databases or email, because you run out of space.

    Unlimited gas would be a lie.
    Unlimited battery would be a lie.
    Just like promising unlimited space is a lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    At the very least, it should be called out within an FAQ and your comparison chart with plans should clearly link to it - something to that effect - something that shows you tried to make it clear what you expect from your clients.

    Right there, These 2 sum it up perfectly.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
    There's almost no good reason to arbitrarily limit domains, databases, emails, FTP accounts, etc, in 2012. .
    News flash: There is now no reason to arbitrarily limit disk space and/or bandwidth. You are still living in 2005.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    News flash: There is now no reason to arbitrarily limit disk space and/or bandwidth. You are still living in 2005.
    Can you point me out the hardware store that sells unlimited drives? And at the same time the one that sells switches with unlimited ports?

    Let me bet. You can´t! And its 2012.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    arbitrarily limit disk space and/or bandwidth.
    There's nothing arbitrary about limiting resources. Resources: CPU, RAM, bandwidth, disk.
    What's asinine is limiting the way resources are used.

    Until auto-expanding (i.e. "unlimited") drives, processors and RAM comes out, resource limits must be set.

    Again, it comes back to not understanding what a resource is, or is not.


    .

  11. #36
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    It's just a marketing ploy, and it works on uneducated customers. Just like other businesses have been doing for years- 98% Fat Free.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Can you point me out the hardware store that sells unlimited drives? And at the same time the one that sells switches with unlimited ports?

    Let me bet. You can´t! And its 2012.
    I can point you to hawkhosts froghost brand and have them show you the difference (If they are willing) between average space and bandwidth limits. They've stated before that the difference in usage wasn't that much. Everything going unlimited regardless, those who don't adapt are going to fail eventually.




    Anyways, as usual, limited vs unlimited debate, 5 pages of the same information going back and forth. </thread>

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Can you point me out the hardware store that sells unlimited drives? And at the same time the one that sells switches with unlimited ports?
    You should no better than that by now. Unlimited refers to the quota not the hardware. Its the limit artificially imposed by the host that becomes unlimited. By not specifying a quota, the feature subject to the quota becomes unlimited. The laws of physics still stand, the physical limit still exists. Its only the quota that does not exist. You are erecting a straw-man by creating a host that does not exist or a claim that is never made.

    We come across unlimited features every day. And all of them are ultimately connected to something limited. It can be unlimited talk time limited by the number of minutes in a day, unlimited mileage limited by the length of roads and gallons of fuel. They all have one other thing in common: what is offered as unlimited is simply the absence of the provider imposing a limit, not nature.
    Last edited by Collabora; 07-09-2012 at 06:52 PM.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by techjr View Post
    I can point you to hawkhosts froghost brand and have them show you the difference (If they are willing) between average space and bandwidth limits. They've stated before that the difference in usage wasn't that much. Everything going unlimited regardless, those who don't adapt are going to fail eventually.
    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about unlimited CPU use?

    That's rhetorical Since we're not going the way of unlimited in that regard, does a host have a responsibility to make a clear statement that this is a limiting factor, if they're going to make very clear statements are what are not limiting factors? (this happens to be my stance)

    It's kind of like prescription medication commercials in the U.S. now. You are not allowed to name a medication and talk about its benefits unless you talk about how it can be harmful. It wasn't good enough that this information could be buried in fine print somewhere hidden away from the advertising that made you want the medication. Forget about the fact that this became law. Focus on the fact that it's the right thing to do. If a host has expectations of its customers, and it will terminate an account that does not meet them, it is right for them to be transparent and take reasonable measures to ensure their customers know what's expected of them.

    I'm totally cool with "unlimited" marketing, but not if a host isn't going to be clear about what parts of their services are limited. That's mean!

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    You should no better than that by now. Unlimited refers to the quota not the hardware. Its the limit artificially imposed by the host that becomes unlimited. By not specifying a quota, the feature subject to the quota becomes unlimited. The laws of physics still stand. You are erecting a straw-man.

    We come across unlimited features every day. And all of them are ultimately connected to something limited. It can be unlimited talk time limited by the number of minutes in a day, unlimited mileage limited by the length of roads and gallons of fuel. They all have one other thing in common: what is offered as unlimited is simply the absence of the provider imposing a limit, not nature.
    Hosts do pay a real-world price per GB, and when a user crosses the line of what is profitable they will be terminated/suspended. Regardless of CPU usage etc. The glass box is the hidden limit that doesn't appear in the TOS. How much storage can you use while staying within the other TOS limits? At an "unlimited" host nobody knows.

    It's one thing to offer "unlimited" hosting as a marketing gimmick, it's another to actually believe that no limits exist and that any consumable resource can actually be unlimited.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWS2006 View Post
    It's one thing to offer "unlimited" hosting as a marketing gimmick, it's another to actually believe that no limits exist and that any consumable resource can actually be unlimited.

    I agree, the corruption is clearly worse than I thought!


    The data plan I'm tethering on now is 'unlimited' also, there's no set limit anywhere, even in the AuP no figures are defined in any data measurement but plenty of people get permanent network bans.

    I'll admit though, the 'no tethering' rule isn't exactly hidden.
    I don't abuse it though, well I stay off the network during normal working hours anyway.
    Last edited by iexo; 07-09-2012 at 07:18 PM.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pm View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about unlimited CPU use?

    That's rhetorical Since we're not going the way of unlimited in that regard, does a host have a responsibility to make a clear statement that this is a limiting factor, if they're going to make very clear statements are what are not limiting factors? (this happens to be my stance)

    It's kind of like prescription medication commercials in the U.S. now. You are not allowed to name a medication and talk about its benefits unless you talk about how it can be harmful. It wasn't good enough that this information could be buried in fine print somewhere hidden away from the advertising that made you want the medication. Forget about the fact that this became law. Focus on the fact that it's the right thing to do. If a host has expectations of its customers, and it will terminate an account that does not meet them, it is right for them to be transparent and take reasonable measures to ensure their customers know what's expected of them.

    I'm totally cool with "unlimited" marketing, but not if a host isn't going to be clear about what parts of their services are limited. That's mean!

    Ideally, we are all limited by the actual resources never really mentioned on the order page. Adding unlimited with the intention of meaning quota-less seems perfectly acceptable when compared to limited hosts putting cpu and memory resource limitations in the TOS. Which I can't find any hosts that are commonly mentioned on this forum stating actual cpu limits other than within the TOS. The same as the unlimited hosts do.

    Heres a great idea, how about unlimited hosts meaning no quota just say no set quota

    Or we wait 4-5 years or even less when everyone starts marketing unlimited anyways. With clustered storage/cloud type offerings being the norm, adding space to a server will be pretty easy. The larger 3-4TB drives are also very reasonably priced bringing storage to hardly a few cents a GB.
    People are going to be having a hard time competing vs the unlimited hosts eventually.

  18. #43
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    All hosts have CPU limits, even most VPS. Usually, it's "equal share", which is open-ended.
    Same for RAM.
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  19. #44

    RE:

    In my opinion, unlimited basically means unmetered. It means they don't care how much you are using on their servers, but you gotta remember, there IS a limit to everything, so eventually, someone or you will use up all of the servers resources and you'll be stuck in a bit of a knot and I think they'll rethink giving you "unlimited" diskspace or bandwidth.

  20. #45
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    Unlimited means, you have unlimited space for your *website*. It's really simple.

    When you buy a unlimited minute plan from the phone company, can you use unlimited minutes in a month? No. There are only 43,829.0639 minutes in a month. Can you even use anywhere close to those minutes? No. There is always a fair use policy, no average human is gonna talk for 43k minutes in a month. That's why it works, and it works the same way with websites. Average websites use only a few hundred megabytes of space, hosts count on that and use the term unlimited to let you know not to worry about space restrictions.

    This does not mean you can start hosting YouTube like web sites on a shared host's $5/month package, or start storing 4-5 TB of home backups on your hosting account. If you know your website is CPU/memory intensive, don't be on a shared platform regardless of whether the host offers unlimited disk space & bandwidth or limited disk space & bandwidth.

    Most big providers use SATA2 drives, which are really cheap now. 3TB is under $200/each. The web sites do not notice much of a performance boost from hosting on SAS 15k drives vs SATA 2 drives unless your website is hosting some large databases for your forums, blogs, etc. In which case you will most likely get booted from the provider's server anyways for hogging too much cpu/ram.

  21. #46
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    @Op seriously why are you advertising your site like that?

  22. #47
    i can't even use 1 gb of the storage

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by WireNine View Post
    Unlimited means, you have unlimited space for your *website*. It's really simple.

    When you buy a unlimited minute plan from the phone company, can you use unlimited minutes in a month? No. There are only 43,829.0639 minutes in a month. Can you even use anywhere close to those minutes? No. There is always a fair use policy, no average human is gonna talk for 43k minutes in a month. That's why it works, and it works the same way with websites. Average websites use only a few hundred megabytes of space, hosts count on that and use the term unlimited to let you know not to worry about space restrictions.

    This does not mean you can start hosting YouTube like web sites on a shared host's $5/month package, or start storing 4-5 TB of home backups on your hosting account. If you know your website is CPU/memory intensive, don't be on a shared platform regardless of whether the host offers unlimited disk space & bandwidth or limited disk space & bandwidth.

    Most big providers use SATA2 drives, which are really cheap now. 3TB is under $200/each. The web sites do not notice much of a performance boost from hosting on SAS 15k drives vs SATA 2 drives unless your website is hosting some large databases for your forums, blogs, etc. In which case you will most likely get booted from the provider's server anyways for hogging too much cpu/ram.
    I totally agree!

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by WireNine View Post
    Unlimited means, you have unlimited space for your *website*. It's really simple.

    When you buy a unlimited minute plan from the phone company, can you use unlimited minutes in a month? No. There are only 43,829.0639 minutes in a month. Can you even use anywhere close to those minutes? No. There is always a fair use policy, no average human is gonna talk for 43k minutes in a month. That's why it works, and it works the same way with websites. Average websites use only a few hundred megabytes of space, hosts count on that and use the term unlimited to let you know not to worry about space restrictions.

    This does not mean you can start hosting YouTube like web sites on a shared host's $5/month package, or start storing 4-5 TB of home backups on your hosting account. If you know your website is CPU/memory intensive, don't be on a shared platform regardless of whether the host offers unlimited disk space & bandwidth or limited disk space & bandwidth.

    Most big providers use SATA2 drives, which are really cheap now. 3TB is under $200/each. The web sites do not notice much of a performance boost from hosting on SAS 15k drives vs SATA 2 drives unless your website is hosting some large databases for your forums, blogs, etc. In which case you will most likely get booted from the provider's server anyways for hogging too much cpu/ram.
    I think we all understand the concept of the business model perfectly. The issue being that the true limits and specifications of exactly what is and isn't limited are often not explained in detail to hosting shoppers in advertisements etc.

    Referencing the mobile phone example, this is specifically why federal regulators now require mobile broadband providers to specifically state any limitations to bandwidth usage in all print, tv, and radio advertising for unlimited offers. Thus the inevitable tiny print that appears in ads featuring unlimited broadband offers.
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  25. #50
    Unlimited Hosting = When they run out of HD space they buy you a bigger one

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