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  1. #1

    techies should avoid APPLE products

    Techies of all stripes should avoid Apple products no matter how hot they might think they are.

    Here is why:

    DOJ settlement:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04..._class_action/

    Class action lawsuit:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09...g_a_doj_no_no/

    Steve Jobs and Apple were at the very center of "an interconnected web of express bilateral agreements, each with the active involvement and participation of a company under the control of the late Steven P. Jobs (“Mr Jobs”) and/or a company whose board shared at least one member of Apple’s board of directors.

    The agreements between the companies were aimed at not competing with each other for employees so that wages would not be driven up.

    Is it true? Well, the DOJ has already reached a consent decree with the companies under investigation as of September, 2010 covering: Apple, Google, Intel, Adobe, Pixar, and Intuit.


    Greed Gone Wild

    ps. who says "do no evil"?
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  2. #2
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    This isn't indication that people should "avoid apple products", it's a GOOD thing.
    Non compete clauses are pretty common. This just means that these companies agreed not to 'poach' or hire each other's employees. Where's the bad in that? Go on, explain how that is bad.
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  3. #3
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    Is horrible! What if you work at Intuit but want to move to Google? What if that is your dream? ...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by HRR1963 View Post
    Is horrible! What if you work at Intuit but want to move to Google? What if that is your dream? ...
    Too bad
    No, really, too bad!
    A job like this isn't meant to be hopped around on. If you can't actually stay with a company like this, then you don't deserve the job in the first place.

    This isn't like Burger Joint USA, where you can jump from joint to joint. These are professional jobs. it's not professional to jump from business to business like that.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by linux-tech View Post
    This isn't indication that people should "avoid apple products", it's a GOOD thing.
    Non compete clauses are pretty common. This just means that these companies agreed not to 'poach' or hire each other's employees. Where's the bad in that? Go on, explain how that is bad.

    My thoughts exactly.

    This has nothing to do with using apple or not.

    Angry mobs?

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  6. #6
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    Different jobs, different benefits, different hours, different locations, different perks.. there are reasons to change jobs..

    Ie; people wanting to switch from engineering to marketing, or w/e that can't always be done in the same company, or moving + switching..

    If there's an opportunity to get a better job at adobe for more money, closer to where you're going to live, etc.. why should you not beable to get the job like anybody else?

    Or hey, I'm unhappy with the people I work with here at Google, I'd like to go to Apple, or Adobe.. Or my boy thinks it's be awesome if I worked at Pixar Studios..
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  7. #7
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    Non-competes seem to be most common (and most enforceable) when potential trade secrets are involved. We're not talking about super low-level jobs in these cases.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by linux-tech View Post
    Too bad
    No, really, too bad!
    A job like this isn't meant to be hopped around on. If you can't actually stay with a company like this, then you don't deserve the job in the first place.

    This isn't like Burger Joint USA, where you can jump from joint to joint. These are professional jobs. it's not professional to jump from business to business like that.
    Oh boy. You know nothing about jobs and benefits. So if you work at Intuit as programmer and Google offers you a double of the current salary, more vacations and benefits, you just don't switch because you re too professional? Nonsense...

  9. #9
    Some people seem to have a very tenuous grasp on what constitutes a fair competitive market.

    Here is a clue ... it does not include secret non-compete agreements covering third parties. Namely, employees or potential employees who might have seen more job openings and hence created more competition for each employee.

    It is one step away from a blackball list with the members being each others' employees. Black ball lists are already intuitively seen as being wrong in a employment agency context. Yet, these companies are effectively doing the same thing to a specific group.

    Apple employs Harry. Apple has a "do not hire" agreement with Google. Harry will never work for Google. Harry had nothing to say about it, did not agree to it, and did not know about the secret illegal, anti-competitive agreement. There is no way that Harry could have given informed consent.

    Two parties conspired to limit the ability of a third party to exact a fair price for his services.

    According to some of the above posters, that is ok.

    It is not ok. And the DOJ agreed.

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike - Limestone View Post
    Non-competes seem to be most common (and most enforceable) when potential trade secrets are involved. We're not talking about super low-level jobs in these cases.

    -mike
    The usual non-compete agreement is between two parties who are privy to the agreement. Even then, if one of the parties is much more powerful than the other, say an employer presenting a canned agreement to a jobless applicant, the courts will invalidate the agreement as being coerced.

    In this case, two parties have conspired to limit the opportunities of a third unsuspecting party who had no knowledge of the agreement, and hence could not possibly have been one of the contracting parties, nor have been able to give informed consent.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by net View Post
    Angry mobs?
    Better ... a class action lawsuit. Hopefully in front of a very friendly judge or sympathetic jury. The suit has already been launched, and an attempt for summary dismissal has already been booted out the door by the presiding judge

    Those who live by the sword of shareholder profits above all else, should die by the sword.

    The markets can be very punishing in the face of a losing judgement worth hundreds of millions.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by plumsauce View Post
    Some people seem to have a very tenuous grasp on what constitutes a fair competitive market.

    Here is a clue ... it does not include secret non-compete agreements covering third parties. Namely, employees or potential employees who might have seen more job openings and hence created more competition for each employee.

    It is one step away from a blackball list with the members being each others' employees. Black ball lists are already intuitively seen as being wrong in a employment agency context. Yet, these companies are effectively doing the same thing to a specific group.

    Apple employs Harry. Apple has a "do not hire" agreement with Google. Harry will never work for Google. Harry had nothing to say about it, did not agree to it, and did not know about the secret illegal, anti-competitive agreement. There is no way that Harry could have given informed consent.

    Two parties conspired to limit the ability of a third party to exact a fair price for his services.

    According to some of the above posters, that is ok.

    It is not ok. And the DOJ agreed.

    ++
    Well put.

    And in some professional fields, it is part of the culture to hop. It can be quite healthy without losing professionalism. I feel bad for the tech industry.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by linux-tech View Post
    This isn't indication that people should "avoid apple products", it's a GOOD thing.
    Non compete clauses are pretty common. This just means that these companies agreed not to 'poach' or hire each other's employees. Where's the bad in that? Go on, explain how that is bad.
    Same reason every why every other anti-competitive practices are bad...
    Winners: Company - who spends less money.
    Losers: Employees - who earns less money.

    Jumping jobs is not unprofessional. It's what allows people to get better jobs.
    Restricting jobs is unprofessional and mob-like behavior. Hey, lets whack that guy for betraying us.
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  14. #14
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    Anti-Apple fanboys take every opportunity to tell people why not to buy Apple products. Fortunately, my cable modem and electric company do not require the approval of others to connect and power my devices

    Besides, name a company with good business practices front and back and I'll show you an ignorant consumer.
    Last edited by mxroute; 04-20-2012 at 11:53 PM.

  15. #15
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    DOJ is correct. The law of supply & demand should apply. If there is demand for techies in this internet revolution, then companies should poach each other talents, and drive the salaries of techies up.

    When there was too much supply of blue collared workers, it drove the salaries down. So it should work both ways.

    Companies are not allowed to fix a price, whether for a product or for human resources.

    Facebooks gave it's employees share holdings, and prolonged the IPO as long as possbile, to avoid their talent cashing out. Employees must have shares in their company to encourage loyalty.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumps View Post
    Jumping jobs is not unprofessional. It's what allows people to get better jobs.
    .
    Funny but wrong.
    It is INCREDIBLY unprofessional to jump jobs in any professional field like this.
    This shows nothing but greed and selfishness
    Want more money? Talk to HR
    Better benefits? Talk to HR

    You don't go into a field like this with the intention of leaving, you go into a field like this with the intention of giving it our best. That does NOT involve throwing a tantrum and going to another company at the first sign that they give out something you want
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    *

    Please .... thats ...

    You does not only work because of your passion and make other people rich without getting a good part. Why would you do that?

    You give your best at work, but that work also have to give you the best. If a salary is low and does not help you pay your expenses, then there is NO way you will do a good work. You will be thinking in your problems the whole day. Thats why when you decide to work somewhere, you have to be wise. You don't stay in a job forever with a bad payroll.

    Its like upgrades! We are not talking about working 1 month in one company and the other month in another, thats bad and pathetic.

    It does not look bad if you stay with a company several years, and decide that you need something better. Thats actually good, you will have more trustworthy references.

    Anyway no serious job, NO serious job will hire you for a good high position if you don't have previous long term experiences with other companies. Thats a must for this field.

    Lets mention a example:
    Sheryl Kara Sandberg[3] (born August 28, 1969) is an American businessperson who has served as the chief operating officer of Facebook since 2008. Prior to Facebook, Sandberg was Vice President of Global Online Sales and Operations at Google.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HRR1963 View Post
    If a salary is low and does not help you pay your expenses
    then cut your expenses.
    We're not talking crap jobs here like BurgerMart, we're talking professional jobs working with top name companies who have been more than generous with benefit packages and salaries. I mean, just look at Life at Google. Just LOOK at major tech companies , the benefits they give their employees. These are dream jobs. You don't just simply pack up and go to another tech company once you've got a job like this, you just don't.

    If you can't afford to live on the salaries these companies give you, then you seriously need to adjust your lifestyle. We're not talking about minimum level employees here, in places like Foxconn, we're talking decent tech employees, paid incredibly well. That's not even an issue.
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  19. #19
    linux-tech, I feel like you're making a very narrow view on what jobs are...
    Yes, we are talking about professional jobs. And that's why it matters even more. There's more value at stake than someone at burgermart (is there even such store?). The MOST "professional" jobs like CEO, COO, CFO, etc, jump jobs too. I think CEO turn over rate is like 10% on some mag I read not too long ago. And this avg even includes people who own these companies! Look, people want to do different things for whatever reason. That's their freedom. Should companies attempt to block that freedom is, by definition of a free market society, unethical and illegal viz unprofessional.

    If you think that everyone at google is having their dream job, you are dreaming. If you think that every employee in the tech sector is having a dandy day all the time, you are dreaming. The whole point is that there should NOT be a tantrum.

    If a person working in any environment wants to stop working there for whatever reason, with or without justification, companies should let them go, professionally. But we're talking about preventing that. Restricting them of their future so that they're forced to stay. How is this a professional environment?

    You can't just say "then cut your expenses" if you need more money. That's just being ignorant... Because you can just cut your expenses on medical bills? Because you can just cut your expenses on your own business? How about your investments just went sour and realized you're broke? How about you just conceived another child and your expenses are higher than expected? How about your child just applied for field of medicine and needs a 50 grand/year tuition fee? How about your safe just got robbed? We're not talking about stupid hillbillies spending too much money on shopping.

    You might find betrayal to companies unprofessional. No one said you entered a company with the intention of leaving. And frankly, even if you DID have the intention of leaving X years later, I don't see how that's unprofessional. It's common practice, especially among those who are looking to climb the ranks faster. Greedy and selfish? Yes, but last time I checked, these are not definition of unprofessionalism. It is our free-market society that has deemed this freedom to be highly valuable.

    Oh and you should look up reasons why people quit before making accusations like greedy and selfish. A "better job" isn't necessarily higher pay. In fact, in a high-pay sector, that's rarely even the reason. I know people who quit for a lower payings jobs too because they simply liked it there more. There are so many factors to why one might quit their jobs other than just money.

    Poaching or scouting in better terminology does "steal" people from one company to another. But merely the higher pay cheque will hardly convince anyone. People who're happy at their jobs aren't just going to leave. People who can talk to their HR for higher pay aren't going to leave. It's merely an additional incentive that's designed to convince you faster because there's less risk of being out of job for a while. It also reduces the headache involved in job hunting.

    Lastly, prevention of poaching lowers not just the poached person's salary but everyone. This reduces motives for the hiring companies to pay more as there's already safety without having to pay more. So, quite frankly, you're just making the uber rich richer.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumps View Post
    You can't just say "then cut your expenses" if you need more money. That's just being ignorant... Because you can just cut your expenses on medical bills? Because you can just cut your expenses on your own business? How about your investments just went sour and realized you're broke? How about you just conceived another child and your expenses are higher than expected? How about your child just applied for field of medicine and needs a 50 grand/year tuition fee? How about your safe just got robbed? We're not talking about stupid hillbillies spending too much money on shopping.
    This is not even an argument. A techie in demand should command any salary he/she wants and spend any way he/she likes.

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