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04-14-2012, 07:00 PM #26THE Web Hosting Master
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No, no one is expecting you to REMEMBER. People are simply expecting you to do a simple search through your email history. If you emailed them cancelation, then you would have that email in your sent folder, and if you canceled through their ticket system it would show in your account history with them and you'd have an email in your inbox from when the ticket was created (likely at least). If you have no evidence, have no idea how/when you did cancel, I really have no idea how to defend you.
My point in getting involved with this was assuring that the customers we had transfered were being properly taken care of. We had decided to do business with Fluid Hosting because of their long history of providing high quality and very fair services. if they were not in-fact treating people fairly then I wanted to see what I could do to help. Here it seems evident that they are willing to be fair, handling the issue with the OP fairly and promptly. On the other hand, you have provided no indication you ever came close to following the outlined cancelation policy/terms.
The remainder of the contract IS the penalty fee, it IS the same thing. What you are proposing is ridiculous and not how ANY business or industry works. These things are generally outlined right in the terms/contract agreed to.
If you lease a car for 3 years, and you just return/cancel it one day after 6 months you're still going to be liable for the payments through the end of your 3 year lease, or whatever the specific terms of your agreement are. If you just stop paying, they're not going to just let you keep the car. If they just let you return it under whatever terms you want, they're losing money, as they're giving you the lease based on depreciation over 3 years, not 6 months and depreciation over the first 6 months is much sharper than over 3 years.
So what you're saying is, that the party agreeing to a term contract has no obligation to actually abide by that term? If I were to sell someone a $1000 server on a 1 year contract, I purchase it custom for them, and charge them $200/mo on that one year contract. You're saying that if they just stop paying after 2 months I either A) Have to continue giving them that service for free. OR B) Need to let them just cancel/get out of their agreement even though it results in a significant loss for me? Term lengths in agreements exist for a reason... Based on your assessment, I have no/little marginal cost moving forward in providing that service, the server is already purchased, thus I should just be taking the loss.Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
VMware Virtual Data Center Platform
karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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04-14-2012, 07:40 PM #27Newbie
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As far as the original ancient email goes I have the original account open email,and that's pretty much it. Although my email seems to have a mysterious void where I got 0 emails. Now I do have a ticket I sent 9/20/10 asking for my accounts information but apparently that was too late to cancel or something I don't know I don't even know how I noticed that account was still active. No mail or emails to show me that the account was still even open. The kind of company that would send you to collections over $15 without even a call or mail is simply not a good company at all. Although having customer service on a Saturday is nice so there's that. Too bad talking to them amounts in a brick wall of YOU OWE MONEY YOU NEVER CANCELED. (Also threatening legal action causes them to ignore you completely to let Cedar Financial handle it which is mildly amusing)
Last edited by Duck and Cover; 04-14-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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04-14-2012, 08:14 PM #28Web Hosting Master
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It's funny that I keep getting comparisions that all contain actual physical products rather than an account on a virtual host. If you stop paying for a car, the car is not worth as much after depreciation so that is why you pay for the full amount. A mobile phone service you pay more for because you pay for the actual physical device you hold. A server can't be used for someone else while it sits there suspended while you try and get money. This is not the same as clicking a button to suspend an account on a server.
In your case, you are not providing anything if they stop using and paying for your services. You send them to collections for unused periods that you are not providing.
The user didn't ask for renewal other than a rolling contract, they didn't contact you when you emailed them, you never tried to contact them any other way. You simply sent to to collections based on autorenew for a pityful amount and then wonder why threads such as this appear here?
It would have been no skin off your back to just cancel the service after 28 days and drop the account, did you really lose anything? Using collections without even attempting to contact the user in any other way is just shady business and to be honest, not a great advert for the business.
Note, I have nothing to gain by posting this, at this time I don't have any affiliation with any hosting company, I just don't like hosting companies that think because they are online they shouldn't even attempt to pick up a phone before sending a user to collections and I don't see where you incurred a years worth of costs while providing no service to this user after the 28 days.
Those heavy-handed tactics are one of the things that give hosting companies a bad name.
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04-14-2012, 09:07 PM #29THE Web Hosting Master
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That is how most companies would handle legal threats. If you're going to take legal action have your attorney send them notice and then their attorney will respond.
So you didn't send them a cancelation email, if your email history doesn't show it, so can you login to your account and check your ticket history there? Is anything showing there? You can understand though that if they never got a cancelation request they would not cancel the account, correct? Show a cancelation request and I'm certain they can help you there. Can someone from FluidHosting pro-actively check through the ticket history to see if there is anything resembling a cancelation request?Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
VMware Virtual Data Center Platform
karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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04-14-2012, 09:11 PM #30THE Web Hosting Master
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What is the YOU for in here?? I had nothing to do with this specific case, I haven't sent anyone to collections, or done any of the things you're complaining about... I'm just here trying to help get a fair resolution worked out.
So you are saying 1) There is no cost in providing shared hosting services. and 2) There should be no penalty for breach of a civil contract and that such contracts have no bearing.
Well, I can't really convince someone of those points, so we'll just have to agree to disagree...Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
VMware Virtual Data Center Platform
karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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04-14-2012, 09:42 PM #31Newbie
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You're asking for proof that I never received. Was I suppose to be taking screenshots just to be sure you'd cancel my account? You realize most companies would probably take my word for it instead you've attempted to shift blame onto me again and again. You're pretty much accusing me of being a deadbeat. Terrible customer service.
Who wants to see an image of my email when I search for steadfast?
http://imgur.com/pKWgA There's the opening email for the account, and that's about it. Clearly I deleted all the requests for payment I was sent. Yep clearly.
It's obvious that you guys bully those who thought they canceled into paying because 1. You know they won't have proof. 2. Who is going to risk their credit score over such a small amount? 3. Legal action tends to cost more than what people owe so you never really worry about that.
2226522 is my account number, well let me rephrase that. It is the account number you refuse to let me do away with I haven't really considered this an account of mine for ages.
I'm putting too much thought into this tell me when you can explain why you use a collection agency that isn't licensed where you are based. Thanks.
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04-14-2012, 11:27 PM #32New Member
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I'm confused, Fluid hosting makes no attempt to email? No attempt to call? No attempt to mail? They just wait a couple years and send you to collections?
Edit:
This is Fluid's cancellation procedure. Needlessly complicated.
https://support.fluidhosting.com/ind...&kbarticleid=1Last edited by myheaditches; 04-14-2012 at 11:33 PM.
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04-14-2012, 11:51 PM #33New Member
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They... apparently have two different articles on how to cancel? Why?
https://support.fluidhosting.com/ind...barticleid=195
Additionally, you are based in Connecticut, use a colocation in New Jersey, your mailing address is in Pennsylvania, and your domain WHOIS is in Pennsylvania? Is the information you provided to ICANN incorrect?Last edited by myheaditches; 04-14-2012 at 11:55 PM.
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04-15-2012, 12:11 AM #34New Member
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Last, please note that despite the fact that your account had been forwarded to collection, you were notified this morning in ticket #LGU-989394 that we had removed your account from collection. This was done per my instruction to Mr. Andrew since you have promised to make the $15 payment. Please note that once an account is forwarded to collection, we would still be responsible for the collection fee of 30% out of the $150 original debt. Thus, it is most likely we will pay the $45 to them to get rid of your have your account dropped. A loss, but something that we would do as a favor for you. And despite all that we have done for you, I am just surprised that you would still come forward with this review. Perhaps it would have been better if we simply let your account stay in collection, which I am seriously considering doing now.
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04-15-2012, 12:17 AM #35Web Hosting Master
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@Karl, sorry to see you being dragged here. Unfortunately, there is actually very little we can do with somebody who refused to be reasoned with. Appreciate your effort and support here.
The client is under a yearly contract. And since no cancellation notice was ever renewed, the yearly contract was renewed. Client choose not to pay for the renewal, even claiming that since he was no longer using the account then he should not be responsible to pay for the account. Not using your account does not constitute a cancellation intent, nor it is a proper cancellation procedure. Regardless, per the Terms of Service, client is still under the the contractual obligation.
Since he is an ex-Steadfast customer, the account was suspended after it is overdue by 14 days. There is no reason why we should continue providing service when client has no intention to pay. The suspension, however, does not free client for the contractual obligation. After multiple email notifications sent to client notifying of the overdue account, suspension warnings, and collection warnings have been ignored, we simply forward the account to collection. If client settle the debt, then (as I have explained to you on page one of this thread) if client wishes, we will simply resume services for client for the remaining credit on the payment, less, in this case, the 14 days where the service was provided and any account re-activation fees.
In short, we don't just demand a year of payment for 14 days of service delivered. Customer is under contractual obligation and once client pays the debt, we will resume/deliver the service again for the remaining contract term/payment credit (again, less any service already provided prior to the suspension and any account re-activation fee).
Please keep in mind that all this time, client data is still residing on our servers.
Originally Posted by myheaditches
First account overdue notification was sent two days after the account was overdue.
First and second account suspension warning notifications were sent on the 7th and 9th day the account was overdue, warning client that the account would be suspended on the 14th day the account is overdue.
Account suspended on the 14th day.
First and second account deletion and collection warning notifications were sent on the 24th and 34th day the account was overdue.
After 60 days the account was overdue without any attempt from customer to resolve the debt, we simply forward the account to collection.
Originally Posted by myheaditches
Originally Posted by myheaditchesFluid Hosting, LLC - Enterprise Cloud Infrastructure: Cloud Shared and Reseller, Cloud VPS, and Cloud Hybrid Server
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04-15-2012, 12:22 AM #36Web Hosting Evangelist
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We have done this before, not for websites, but where we manufactured alot of components, only to receive a call that it was cancelled (for whatever reasons) instead of charging them $50,000 (or whatever) we worked out the costs incurred so far, and charged them accordingly, something like $1000.
I would do the same with a website, take a deposit, if the guy cancels for whatever reasons, i would bill them for time spent and current costs incurred, not the entire contract, for hosting? really if its shared hosting, the real cost is just pennies, charge them what they used and let them go..
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04-15-2012, 12:35 AM #37THE Web Hosting Master
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OK, I ask when this was cancelled, no answer, I ask how it was cancelled, no answer. I am trying to help, but you're not giving me anything to go off of. We have generally found that if there is an outright refusal to provide simple information, they're not telling the truth. I am not saying that is the case here, but statistically, those are the odds. If you cancelled multiple years ago then that would have been before your account was transfer to Fluid Hosting and I want to make sure we get that resolved.
To note, this seemed to be a response to me, as I was the one requesting the data, but then I am also certainly not the person who sent you to collections, etc. I am thus confused exactly as to what you're responding to.
Also, in this day and age when disk space for email is effectively unlimited, why do you delete anything (as you clearly do since you're missing a TON of emails that would have been sent over that time frame) that isn't spam? Personally, I have all of the email I have sent and received since ~2002, though some are archived on different drives when we changed mail servers, etc. That history is how you can demonstrate and prove all sorts of things. There is significant value in keeping the information and effectively no cost to keep it. Simply producing emails where cancellation was requested, certain services were clarified, etc. have saved me some significant time and effort over the years.Last edited by KarlZimmer; 04-15-2012 at 12:38 AM.
Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
VMware Virtual Data Center Platform
karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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04-15-2012, 12:43 AM #38THE Web Hosting Master
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I would just like to point out, that IS exactly what Fluid Hosting offered. That they would simply pay for the month that was already used, but got no response. If the party in your story had just outrightly refused to pay even the $1000 how would you proceed? If you send them to collections just for the $1000 you subtract the collections fees, they make a settlement for less than the total amount and you've gotten a significant loss. You start at trying to collect the remainder of the contract and you're much more likely to settle, still getting the $1k you wanted. When things get to the point of collections it is generally because negotiations have broken down completely, thus the person sending them to collections is trying to recoup as much of the cost as possible. When you send someone to collections for an amount, you aren't expecting to collect the full amount, that is simply a starting point for negotiations.
Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
VMware Virtual Data Center Platform
karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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04-15-2012, 12:44 AM #39Newbie
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You asked for proof. I don't have proof why would I have proof? You think I remember the process I used to cancel? I vaguely remember your asinine CANCEL ticket system but that's about it. You seem to think I'm just lying and really wanted that account to remain open. That's obviously not the case because of the lack of any activity on the case. Now a normal company would see that and probably just give me the benefit of a doubt but no not you guys. I told you I don't have those emails, because they don't really exist. The only email I do have is my requesting the account information so that I could cancel (the second time). Oh and assuming your customers are lying? Yeah classy. I said I don't have anything yet you keep demanding I show proof? I was never given any proof and since it's your system it's your fault.
Last edited by Duck and Cover; 04-15-2012 at 12:48 AM.
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04-15-2012, 12:47 AM #40Newbie
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I've checked all but my old college email, not a thing. No mails, no phone calls, I don't think you actually were interested in contacting me. If you were you would have sent a mail called me on the phone and presto! You would have gotten me. Although I still wouldn't have paid you anything since I don't owe anything.
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04-15-2012, 01:07 AM #41THE Web Hosting Master
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Sorry, it seems I had accidentally removed a line when editing, can you please PM me all your email addresses and I can go through the history on our side as well. Do you have the ticket number on that 2nd request? When was that made?
I would also like to make it clear that I do NOT have insight into your current account, I did NOT send you to collections, I have never been given the chance to show you the benefit of a doubt as a customer (as far as I am aware) so I have no idea how you are able to make such calls as to my judgement on those things...Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
VMware Virtual Data Center Platform
karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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04-15-2012, 01:17 AM #42Web Hosting Evangelist
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yes, i did notice that the hosting provider did attempt to solve this amicably, and there is a massive gap between 'what he said and what she said' , which makes me completely untrustful of both sides, yet based on what ive read, in the ops case i would have just terminated the account (and yes kept track of the debt for services rendered) but allowed more time for payment and or not actively pursued it. In this case the debt collectors costs are more then the debt and the time spent and the damage from chasing the debt isnt worth it.
(when i say "in the ops case" i mean that even the hosting provider has mentioned they had no complaints, or tickets or issues for years until the op made a mistake. For other clients that refused to pay i would have a different opinion)
right now im owed over $1000 for damages to my car by someone who damaged it, and i cannot recover it, the costs, the legal battles the lack of witnesses means that im unlikely to ever see a dime (the fact that the police cannot protect me against a violent criminal also comes into affect). While i am stuck with a car that i cant afford to repair, i have no choice but to move on and accept the loss..
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04-15-2012, 02:16 AM #43THE Web Hosting Master
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I agree, I would have also not actively pursued it for what was effectively $15 in service and agree that it is probably not worth it. That is my personal opinion/decision in this case, but I will not say that another company should be forced to give up collecting on a debt because it it is too small though, that is up to that company and what is economically feasible for them. It is FluidHosting's right to collect on debts they are owed.
I don't see how your car has anything to do with this. If you DID have a way to collect on it, like sending them to collections, are you saying you would simply give up that right? You certainly can't recover ALL of your costs, but if you're giving up and not trying to collect on ANY of them, you're not going to collect on any of them either... If you COULD collect on that I'm certain you would do everything economically feasible to collect on it, and that is what Fluid Hosting is doing here.
To note, debt collection is not the evil that everyone seems to indicate it is. Certainly there are some bad apples in the industry, but the intent is to re-open dialogue for debt repayment. Collections agencies are generally only employed when they can't get in touch with the debtor or negotiations have broken down. The company looking to collect is not a debt collection agency, that is not their job, so that job is outsourced. When you are contacted by a debt collection company that does NOT affect your credit. If you feel the debt is not valid, inform the collection agency and provide evidence, if you can provide evidence it isn't valid it will almost certainly be dropped. If you don't feel you owe the whole amount, make an offer to settle it for a smaller amount and that offer will very often be taken. If you can't pay the whole thing right away, work out a payment plan. If you're dealing with a good debt collection company it is basically just dealing with an outsourced billing person, someone dedicated to that task, and you can continue to negotiate, dispute the fees, etc. If you're simply refusing to make a payment on a debt for the fun of it, then expect it to hit your credit, I don't see the problem there.Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
VMware Virtual Data Center Platform
karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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04-15-2012, 03:34 AM #44Web Hosting Master
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You as in the company. If it wasn't specifically you then I apologise, it was late and you are posting with the company he signed up with in your signature defending this action so I hope you can see where the lines are getting blurred here.
The point is that sending someone to collection costs money and to send them for collections over an annual amount and say here they will settle for a monthly payment that doesn't even cost the collection amount? That only sounds like fluff to try and defend the heavy-handed tactics used because they know they were over the top. I know you said you would not have pursued this and for that I'll give credit where credit is due.
I lost track of you/them/steadfast/fluid and for that I apologise.
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04-15-2012, 03:47 AM #45THE Web Hosting Master
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Duck and Cover, thanks for the PM. I've been in touch with Dave from FluidHosting and it seems we have everything worked out here. I've shared the information with him from before the account was transfered and we're accepting the request for more information, indicating that he thought the account was cancelled as a cancellation request. I apologize that we had only provided the information requested and had not followed up with that further to assure things were completed to satisfaction.
Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
VMware Virtual Data Center Platform
karl @ steadfast.net - Sales/Support: 312-602-2689
Cloud Hosting, Managed Dedicated Servers, Chicago Colocation, and New Jersey Colocation
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04-15-2012, 01:04 PM #46Newbie
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It's done with thanks for your help Karl.
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04-16-2012, 02:03 AM #47Web Hosting Master
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@Duck and Cover: Karl contacted me forwarding your email content. I determined that it was a valid cancellation request which they simply have overlooked prior to us acquiring the shared hosting customers. Thus, your account was renewed without our knowledge of your past cancellation request to Steadfast. It's just a simple and honest mistake that they have apologized for. We will instruct CF first thing in the morning to drop the collection claim. Their system may not be updated right away so if you still receive contact from them you can tell them that the collection has been dropped.
Fluid Hosting, LLC - Enterprise Cloud Infrastructure: Cloud Shared and Reseller, Cloud VPS, and Cloud Hybrid Server
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