Web Hosting Talk : Other Forums : Web Hosting Lounge : Greeks start cashless economy !!

[unity100]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/1...tight-economy/

In recent weeks, Theodoros Mavridis has bought fresh eggs, tsipourou (the local brandy: beware), fruit, olives, olive oil, jam, and soap. He has also had some legal advice, and enjoyed the services of an accountant to help fill in his tax return.

None of it has cost him a euro, because he had previously done a spot of electrical work – repairing a TV, sorting out a dodgy light – for some of the 800-odd members of a fast-growing exchange network in the port town of Volos, midway between Athens and Thessaloniki.

I think the rules that make the system work flawlessly are :

No one may hold more than 1,200 tems in the account “so people don’t start hoarding; once you reach the top limit you have to start using them.”

And no one may owe more than 300, so people “can’t get into debt, and have to start offering something”.

One participant describes the experience of participation in the exchange like below :

“They’re quite joyous occasions,” she said. “It’s very liberating, not using money.”

[linux-tech]

Cashless economies are hardly new. They've been around for much longer than you can imagine. It's called bartering.

This isn't a step forward, this is a step backwards. Civilizations, long ago, gave up the idea that bartering for goods or services was a good concept, and rightfully so.

[Spluut]

Originally Posted by linux-tech

Cashless economies are hardly new. They've been around for much longer than you can imagine. It's called bartering.

This isn't a step forward, this is a step backwards. Civilizations, long ago, gave up the idea that bartering for goods or services was a good concept, and rightfully so.

It is all about BTC now.

[net]

Well, at least they are doing something :-)

[unity100]

Originally Posted by linux-tech

Cashless economies are hardly new. They've been around for much longer than you can imagine. It's called bartering.

This isn't a step forward, this is a step backwards. Civilizations, long ago, gave up the idea that bartering for goods or services was a good concept, and rightfully so.

if only you actually knew ZIT about history, civilization etc .....

not to mention you apparently understood ZIT from the article you have (probably not) read either.

they are not bartering. they are using an exchange unit called TEM.

again : dont talk on things you dont know about.

Originally Posted by net

Well, at least they are doing something :-)

they seem to have fixed most of the ills of capitalism to me.

[linux-tech]

I'd say lose the attitude, but it's you, that'd be wasting my time and breath.
This is the same thing as bartering. The only difference? Someone else sets the value of your product or service and demands that you stick to that.
You're right, this isn't bartering, this is worse. At least when you can barter directly with the person you're attempting to exchange, you have more of a realistic chance to get a realistic outcome. Instead, you're forced to work for crap again.

Same old, same old. So much for favoring the little guy, right?

[unity100]

Originally Posted by linux-tech

I'd say lose the attitude, but it's you, that'd be wasting my time and breath.

are you losing ignorance and arrogance ? until that time, stop advising me about these stuff.

you were just defending 'business owners' calling their customers 'muppets' in another thread. so ....

This is the same thing as bartering. The only difference? Someone else sets the value of your product or service and demands that you stick to that.
You're right, this isn't bartering, this is worse. At least when you can barter directly with the person you're attempting to exchange, you have more of a realistic chance to get a realistic outcome. Instead, you're forced to work for crap again.

Same old, same old. So much for favoring the little guy, right?

i am going to ask you again,

did you read the article ?

..........

you have either not read the article, or you are incapable of UNDERSTANDING what is written. reading comprehension or cognition issues.

im not going to even bother explaining that 'noone is setting the value of your goods' - > read the article.

if after that, you still dont understand what a 'wealth cap' means, then just shut up and dont waste both our time.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by unity100

did you read the article ?

..........

Yes he did. Did you?

The network is currently busy transforming a disused building owned by Volos university into a permanent exchange and barter space.

Why do you always have to be so ignorant about every subject you bring up? While this may be helpful on the local level, the world is involved in a global economy. Greece can't trade oil for tems. It is a local means of bartering, nothing more. Let me know when common sense sinks in and you recognize you were wrong... as usual. I'll be here waiting.

[linux-tech]

So, your only reason for liking this is because there's a 'wealth cap' involved. Talk about completely selfish and greedy. Yeah, not a surprise coming from you.

Stashing money doesn't make one evil, it merely makes them frugal. Of course, you want to take away from everyone that has and force them to give up to the have nots, simply because you say they should. Yeah, that doesn't work in reality.

This is, hands down, a barter system. I don't care that you don't want to look at it differently, that's exactly what this is.

This isn't going to HELP Greece solve their global problems, because nobody's going to switch to Greece's outdated, ancient system of doing things.

This isn't going to HELP Greece get global things they can't produce (oil, etc), because, again, nobody's going to switch to Greece's outdated, ancient system of doing things.

This is only going to cause more problems for Greece, it will solve absolutely nothing. Bartering was good when things were primarily local. Now? Cash rules. Rupees, Dolars, Euros, Leks, Francs, you name it, CASH rules

[unity100]

Originally Posted by linux-tech

So, your only reason for liking this is because there's a 'wealth cap' involved.

if you think without using your brain - yes.

what does it matter why i have linked it by the way ? is there a guideline in linking things ? i didnt read anything in the rules against linking anything that is not compatible with the 'wheeeee me, mine, all mine' philosophy ?

Talk about completely selfish and greedy. Yeah, not a surprise coming from you.

this is why i am talking to you as if im speaking with a 5 year old.

so, hoarding is not selfish and greedy, but NOT hoarding, is ?

again;

hoarding is not selfish and greedy. NOT hoarding wealth, is. that is what you are saying.

Stashing money doesn't make one evil,

of course it doesnt make one evil. it makes them 5 year old self-centered childs. '
wheee my, mine'. of course, the most successful ones in stashing the money are those who are really evil - since they dont have any kind of responsibility or empathy towards others.

they can sell your children lead painted toys, make record profits, and then just keep doing it even if discovered.

Of course, you want to take away from everyone that has and force them to give up to the have nots, simply because you say they should. Yeah, that doesn't work in reality.

'wheeeee they gonna be taking my toys wheeeee !!! but they are all mine !! i no share !!'

........

that's your problem, we know it. you dont have to project it to ALL discussions regarding economics, especially :

This is, hands down, a barter system. I don't care that you don't want to look at it differently, that's exactly what this is.

.... when you talk about things you do NOT know while trying to project.

i can understand you have taken no econ classes in college. alright. let me teach you in one short line :

'unit of exchange' means 'money'.

there is an unit of exchange in that system. that means, that is not a barter system.

you cant propose otherwise. dont do that again. you will look utterly, helplessly stupid - because proposing that will also make the system you currently try to fervently defend, a 'barter system'. after all, the exchange unit you are using is just a printed piece of paper and nothing else.

This isn't going to HELP Greece solve their global problems, because nobody's going to switch to Greece's outdated, ancient system of doing things.

ooooh baby !!!

it seems like they have fixed their issues. ranging from rendering complex services like tax accounting to equipment repair.

on the other hand, there's some 'wall street exec' among us, telling us otherwise.

who are we supposed to believe ?

This isn't going to HELP Greece get global things they can't produce (oil, etc), because, again, nobody's going to switch to Greece's outdated, ancient system of doing things.

that should be why 800 exchange associations popped up in greece in just over a month ...

dont worry, when the system gets spread enough, stuff like oil will also get involved.

but of course, that is not the problem that is bugging you.

This is only going to cause more problems for Greece, it will solve absolutely nothing. Bartering was good when things were primarily local. Now? Cash rules. Rupees, Dolars, Euros, Leks, Francs, you name it, CASH rules

i assume that you are not stupid.

therefore, i will assume that you have, SOMEHOW forgotten what 'barter' is, and what does 'exchange unit' mean.

of course, these are after assuming that you KNEW what they were, in the first place.

[Mike - Limestone]

I realize that there is something of a system in place, but it seems to be bartering in essence (at least to my untrained eye).

I personally have no problem with the idea -- if people want to barter or participate in such a system, then that should be their right -- but I do wonder if they are paying "appropriate" taxes.

-mike

[mg-]

bar·ter
verb (used without object)
1. to trade by exchange of commodities rather than by the use of money.


Exerpt:
None of it has cost him a euro, because he had previously done a spot of electrical work – repairing a TV, sorting out a dodgy light – for some of the 800-odd members of a fast-growing exchange network in the port town of Volos, midway between Athens and Thessaloniki.

In return for his expert labour, Mavridis received a number of Local Alternative Units (known as tems in Greek) in his online network account. In return for the eggs, olive oil, tax advice and the rest, he transferred tems into other people’s accounts.


He provided a service, got something in return.. hmmm.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

“You are not poor when you have no money,” she said, “you are poor when you have nothing to offer – except for the elderly and the sick, to whom we should all be offering.”

HMMMMM. So what happens once you have nothing to offer? ????? Do they offer pension? Benefits? What about interest? What if you're in a coma for 6 months. What if you get in a car accident, can't work... Because even with cash economy people say we should help the elder... doesn't work out so good

HMMMM.

Let me emphasize the hmm alittle more..
HMMMMM

That's better. Its also still based on currency, set amount of "tems" for offering a service, you get it in network account.. Only with caps. So monopoly currency only good in greece? Sounds an awful like I get paid 10 tems for offering my tax service... It costs me 1 tem for a massage. Oh wait..

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread though.

Cheers!

[mg-]

Wait... how do you retire if you have a cap?

[unity100]

its appalling how many people do not know what does definition of money mean :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money

Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context.[1][2][3] The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally in the past, a standard of deferred payment.[4][5] Any kind of object or secure verifiable record that fulfills these functions can serve as money.

linux-tech is vindicated. apparently, there are even reasonable people who dont know the very basics of economic theories or .... gasp ....... what did you think money was in the first place ?

..............

you may exchange beads as the medium of exchange. beads, is your money.

you may exchange bitcoins as your medium of exchange. bitcoins become your money,.

you may exchange dried horse dung as your medium of exchange. horse dung, is now your money, your currency.


and, barter :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter

Barter is a method of exchange by which goods or services are directly exchanged for other goods or services without using a medium of exchange, such as money.[1]

that means, in barter, you do NOT use ANY 'medium of exchange. you DIRECTLY exchange your eggs with apples.

IF, there is ANY medium of exchange involved, ie, you give the guy your apples for 5 'units' or 'horse dung' or 'bitcoins' or 'tem' or 'dollars', and the guy gives you his eggs for 3 of those in exchange, YOU ARE USING money. which is, 'medium of exchange'.

the technical definition of the current 'money' you are using, are banknotes. printed papers of trust which signify that some wealthy issuer will be guaranteeing/backing the value of the exchanged goods/services with his/her wealth.

that was how PAPER money came into being in mid 15th century, as BANK notes. before that, they were issued and used as written assurances of wealthy nobles guaranteeing a transaction, as 'letters of credit'. (before banking schemes were invented and first banks were founded).

..............


i apologize from linux-tech for dubbing him ignorant on this particular topic. i though that, these were common knowledge.

that someone may live in modern world, be college graduate or be working in a tech or another advanced field without knowing these very basic stuff, is not only news to me, but also appalling for me. how can someone does not know about these, but talk about economics, escapes me.

[linux-tech]

Originally Posted by mg-

Wait... how do you retire if you have a cap?

Yeah, that's one problem with the whole thing.
On top of that, how do you "invest" if you have a cap? Now, I know unity's going to throw a fit about that word, but not all investments are bad.

Bill Gates, one of the richest man in the world, didn't get there by living on a 'cap', he got there by investing both time and money into a little company called Microsoft. By doing this, he changed the future of the PC

Steve Jobs, one of the pioneers in this industry, not only developed one, but two (ok, so he bought one out, but improved it to where it was a standard) companies that revolutionized their respective industries. He didn't grow up rich, he invested time and money.

Mark Zuckerberg , hate him or love him, changed the face of the internet with Facebook. He did this by investing his own time and money (and that of others) while in school.

The point? Investments aren't all bad, and they tend to lead to some very decent innovations. You can't do that when you've got an income cap.

So, again, Greece stays behind while the rest of the world moves forward.