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  1. #1

    Sharktech equivelants?

    Hi,

    I'm currently with some of the bigger used hosts and quite satisfied with it, as i doubt i can find better.

    ...but we've had some attacks of ddos over the past year or so, not many but a couple that are an annoyance, and would be nice to have better protection/support than my current hosts.

    In the "days of yonder past" i've hosted with sharktech.
    They did amazing work by creative a collective system that all their servers are behind.
    (atleast they say so).

    The net result was extremely effective, atleast i felt it that way, automatic mitigation.
    Sometimes it'd take a bit of hassle with support but they'd always get it under control and our attackers would give up.


    ...so why aren't you still with them?
    Well, sadly they don't offer newer quality grade hardware(disk & ram limitations).

    ..so. are there anyone left like them?
    Someone with a proven track record in the area of mitigation without disastrous costly sideeffects after X point?

    Maybe someone you've seen do it effectively for a good price, and still offer some quality hardware?


    Maybe it's asking too much, but it's interesting sharktech still delivers after all this time.
    Must be doing something right
    I don't really have a budget, but it would be interesting to note

  2. #2
    Blacklotus offers DoS protected servers: http://www.blacklotus.net/hosting-se...cated-servers/
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  3. #3
    I'm aware of lotus should have mentioned that!
    Altho comparing to what sharktech gives freely they seem very very expensive, up until X level and X hardware.
    Multiplicative punishment for larger servers.

    I don't understand how they can offer what they offer in terms of protection vs sharktech.
    Especially since i personally know sharktech will go way above lotus 2-3-4 GBit limit and not care.


    There's also dragonara.net in Switzerland(Only EU one, i know).
    And i've been tempted to test them out.


    Hoping some of you know a few others to check out

  4. #4
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    MrMac,

    We can provide any level of DDoS protection that you require, but as you indicated its going to be far more expensive than some of the discount providers.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by IRCCo Jeff View Post
    MrMac,

    We can provide any level of DDoS protection that you require, but as you indicated its going to be far more expensive than some of the discount providers.

    I wouldn't doubt that for a second.

    ...out of curiosity tho, what stops you from creating a "Cloud" ddos network that you could put X servers in and make it worth it?

    Big Cloud lesser requirements for each at all times.

    and so on

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMac View Post
    I wouldn't doubt that for a second.

    ...out of curiosity tho, what stops you from creating a "Cloud" ddos network that you could put X servers in and make it worth it?

    Big Cloud lesser requirements for each at all times.

    and so on
    People who use DDoS protection services generally only do so while being attacked due to the increased latency from the reverse proxying. So, running said network is very expensive because you have a constant flow of DDoS attacks. SharkTech was able to offer a cheap service because dedicated servers from them would not always be under attack - so the profit from the servers that weren't under attack subsidised those that are being attacked.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Flapadar View Post
    People who use DDoS protection services generally only do so while being attacked due to the increased latency from the reverse proxying. So, running said network is very expensive because you have a constant flow of DDoS attacks. SharkTech was able to offer a cheap service because dedicated servers from them would not always be under attack - so the profit from the servers that weren't under attack subsidised those that are being attacked.

    I don't mean to be rude, but no beepity beep sherlock.


    Buy more, pay less.

    Wanna explain me how that works too?



    My question was in regard why others don't follow that strategy.
    You define a protection neccesity per customer average, and just keep growing and growing.

    Assuming you can scale well, youd have enough clients to protect even the biggest of attacks and secure all from anyone.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMac View Post
    I don't mean to be rude, but no beepity beep sherlock.
    If it was that obvious, why ask? You clearly already knew the answer to your question. The reason others don't follow that strategy would be that initial losses are huge. You have to have the infrastructure before you have the clients.

    BlackLotus on the other hand, have a business model that is sustainable - they have the infrastructure, and they charge accordingly so as they are not making huge losses by maintaining the infrastructure to today's standards of DDoS attacks (Which are ever growing in size and technicality - they are getting harder to block than it was years ago). I would predict that as their client base grows, their prices will drop.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMac View Post
    I wouldn't doubt that for a second.

    ...out of curiosity tho, what stops you from creating a "Cloud" ddos network that you could put X servers in and make it worth it?

    Big Cloud lesser requirements for each at all times.

    and so on
    This is what we have, but it is, unfortunately, more expensive than most other dedicated server and cloud providers.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Flapadar View Post
    If it was that obvious, why ask? You clearly already knew the answer to your question. The reason others don't follow that strategy would be that initial losses are huge. You have to have the infrastructure before you have the clients.

    BlackLotus on the other hand, have a business model that is sustainable - they have the infrastructure, and they charge accordingly so as they are not making huge losses by maintaining the infrastructure to today's standards of DDoS attacks (Which are ever growing in size and technicality - they are getting harder to block than it was years ago). I would predict that as their client base grows, their prices will drop.
    ...and building a Cloudhosting service capable of taking care of both SMB,SOHO, Large & Enterprise/Datacenter level isn't?
    Any business in essence is.
    Again...weird post by you.

    The sheer value of knowing your protected behind a proven mechanism is worth something extra - even if you rarely have use for it.

    Jeff:

    If you have everything behind in one way, naturally for the biggest possible resources to X client(s) - why does your prices scale ....dare i say awkwardly?

    If i as a client say know, of impending doom on my site of moderate normal traffic so to speak - i could run it off your A3 and be safe - with minimal cost.

    Is it your own risk assessment/experience that places greater powerful servers at greater risk ?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMac View Post
    My question was in regard why others don't follow that strategy.
    You define a protection neccesity per customer average, and just keep growing and growing.

    Assuming you can scale well, youd have enough clients to protect even the biggest of attacks and secure all from anyone.
    No provider is everything to everyone. There must be a reason why Sharktech doesn't have newer hardware available. We can speculate all day on what they are, but the reality is they're just not currently offering what you're looking for. If you're so convinced that the business model you're proposing is a recipe for sure success, and has a potential market, then why not launch your own service that does exactly that? In the meantime, the options that do exist and have been around for a while have shown that their business models at least have staying power, and by extension are more likely to be sustainable.

    Personally, I think you are grossly underestimating the cost of DDoS mitigation (both capital and operational), and the willingness of people not under attack to subsidize those that are. Yes, there are definitely some opportunities for economies of scale. A network with a lot of content-heavy traffic will have a lot more available inbound capacity, which would reduce the costs of sustaining an attack. However, in order to achieve that scale, such a provider would need to excel at many other focuses as well. The question then becomes whether they would still be committed to DDoS mitigation once they've achieved that scale. I do know of one and only one such provider of such scale that has offered a DDoS mitigation service, but the product never really gained traction and has since languished, and instead a new company purely focusing on DDoS mitigation was spun out based on that technology. And that new company is now much more expensive than anyone else mentioned in this thread. Take that for what you will.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMac View Post
    If you have everything behind in one way, naturally for the biggest possible resources to X client(s) - why does your prices scale ....dare i say awkwardly?
    Have you perhaps considered that the opposite may be true? That their prices have scaled very well, all things considered. Request a quote from Prolexic, and then perhaps you'd be able to better appreciate the value of what Jeff is offering.

    I don't want to comment on services I've never used, but I'll say this much: a lot of the DDoS mitigation solutions out there are full of hot air and can't offer anywhere near the level of protection that they advertise. A brief analysis of their network and infrastructure will often show as much.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hhw View Post
    Have you perhaps considered that the opposite may be true? That their prices have scaled very well, all things considered. Request a quote from Prolexic, and then perhaps you'd be able to better appreciate the value of what Jeff is offering.

    I don't want to comment on services I've never used, but I'll say this much: a lot of the DDoS mitigation solutions out there are full of hot air and can't offer anywhere near the level of protection that they advertise. A brief analysis of their network and infrastructure will often show as much.
    Without a doubt.
    My point is that i find it rare, in a big market that one company offers a relative niche(dedicated protected boxes) and offers that extra niche for nearly NOTHING, comparing to the rest of the market.

    It seems out of place.

    Maybe i'm just disillusional as you say, and they've invested long ago sitting with elder but perhaps robust equipment?


    If i should explain further(Not being an expert, clearly ) - i know sharktech can deal with simple but very very heavy attacks.
    I imagine there exists miles more professional services and mitigation companies dealing with things in amazing ways.
    But mostly i was looking for cheaper ways to stop "skiddies" with some rooted boxes (can't really call less than 50 botnet can you?) that perhaps would attack me with some custom scripts and connections.
    Lotus, if i may say looking at them i would feel them almost over qualified to handle it.

    Now that i've had some days of thought, obviously i'm not the volume client nor a "special client" for anyone offering this.

    I'm just a tipper to help the scale as you say.
    Geuss i'll live with what i have!


    I will however probably give jeff a try for a new project that's bound to cause some uproar
    Hopefully it won't need that much computing power in the start up.

  14. #14
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    If you're looking to protect yourself from skids you can just get a 1/10g box from a provider with unmetered incoming bandwidth (e.g. OVH) and some very strong iptables rules.

    If you're looking to protect yourself from a serious attacker, you would need to go with a mitigation company.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flapadar View Post
    If you're looking to protect yourself from skids you can just get a 1/10g box from a provider with unmetered incoming bandwidth (e.g. OVH) and some very strong iptables rules.
    OVH is not suitable for DDOS, they will nullroute you. You'll find the same with almost every other provider aswell.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miscis View Post
    OVH is not suitable for DDOS, they will nullroute you. You'll find the same with almost every other provider aswell.
    I've had an old personal 1gbit kimsufi box for about 2 years that gets pummelled often. Runs garry's mod servers (Which is the community in which the Call of Duty DRDoS exploit was first commercialised, which sucked)

    Largest attack on the gaming community's servers caused around 3/4 packet loss, so I would assume it was 1.5+gbit/s and wasn't nullrouted. The attack lasted for 2 days as well - so it seems they are quite lenient.

  17. #17
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    Staminus, awknet, gigenet. Currently using gigenet for ddos protection (proxy shield, hosted elsewhere) and very pleased so far.

    I advise against serverorigin, as we had a bad experience with them.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMac View Post
    The sheer value of knowing your protected behind a proven mechanism is worth something extra - even if you rarely have use for it.
    A lot of my customers would disagree with you. The occasional customer of mine gets a DDoS attack and expects us to do something about it. The simple answer is we don't cater to that market, and if we did, we would have to charge twice (twice!) as much for every single client of ours. We wouldn't have any clients left if we doubled our prices. People don't want to pay for something they don't need. Heck, people usually don't even want to pay for something they probably do need. Plenty of customers of ours set up VPS nodes with no raid whatsoever. They'd rather save $10 or $20 a month and go without raid on their VPS nodes, and risk the failure. If a typical customer is not even willing to pay an extra $20 to take a prudent step to safeguard their data, do you really think they want to pay a massive amount of extra money to subsidize other customers need for DDoS protection, a service they themselves do not need?
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  19. #19
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    funkywizard,

    I can attest from first hand experience that the expense of DDoS protection does typically reduce in increased rates, which would indeed cause some attrition. What a lot of hosts do not take into consideration is that there are relatively few DDoS mitigation providers compared to traditional hosts. There are thousands upon thousands of hosts, and literally only a handful of DDoS mitigation providers.

    So essentially, by offering DDoS protection you can get your hands on a bigger piece of a smaller pie.

  20. #20
    Hello,

    I am sorry for not replying earlier, and I appreciate the good words received, but I have few points I would like to clarify.

    A) The comments that MrMac mentioned about our hardware being old that can't be further from the truth. Our systems range from Atom330-525 to Core i3/5 systems. We also provide AMD Opteron 6100 and 6200 series, and Xeon 5400 and 5500. We do have older systems we keep them in circulation because they are still in demand, but we continuously look for new hardware test and integrate. For example right now our cloud virtual servers services is running on multiple supermicro quad Opteron 6200 series boasting total of 48 cores each system with SSD3 RAID data storage.

    B) The reasons why our prices are so competitive and probably cheaper than any other ddos protecting provider are MANY like our strategic partners in the industry, our almost completely automated ddos protection system that decrease our overhead, our home developed ddos protection systems that have been proven for over 9 years now...etc
    C) Our DDoS protection system in place is not the best out there, but it's a balanced system that is able to adapt to new attack methods and provide a decent protection that works for over 95% of our customers without us manually intervening.

    Thank you all for your comments please feel free to ask any questions and I'll gladly clarify, and MrMac if we don't have the hardware you need shoot us an email with what you are looking for and we'll gladly give you a quote

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