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Thread: Fraud Orders

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer View Post
    I agree, and that is what we do. When you call you can even make it just sound like good customer service, saying you're calling to see if they have any questions, clarify anything about the order, etc. and ask them to confirm some data. Then you've made the customer happy that you took the trouble to call them, while you now know it is a legit customer.

    Note: That is of course part of a comprehensive system, not a complete solution by itself.
    Also, might want to check timezones.

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    Asking for a photo ID would have stopped that one in its tracks
    We would only ask for a photo ID if there was something suspicious on our side. But all records matched, so we approved it.

    Now everything that is over $500 requires a photo ID.

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  3. #53
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    We've seen a large influx of fraudulent customers in the last 3 weeks, and more than ever all the parameters match for their ID, bank, ISP etc...really getting wild out there with fraud!
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by TmzHosting View Post
    We would only ask for a photo ID if there was something suspicious on our side. But all records matched, so we approved it.

    Now everything that is over $500 requires a photo ID.

    - Daniel
    There's always something suspicious.

    We just had some numbnuts sign up for a server, pay with paypal then complain when we asked for further identification. He listed his address as an Airport. Paypal seems to indicate otherwise.

    Every order is suspicious. Especially when a CC can be disputed 6 months later. It pays to get the extra insurance! The only people that have a problem with it are the ones who are going to screw you.
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  5. #55
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    The problem is with the assumption that it is stolen ID which is making it fraudulent so a Utility bill solves the problem. I have found a few where it is simply someone wanting service for free or thought their business was going to take off then after 2 months realizes it isn't viable so they try to charge everything back to avoid taking the loss.

    Certainly the utility bill helps to prove things with the CC company but there is another class of fraudster that isn't stolen identity.

  6. #56
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    Here is how we avoid fraud:

    We require you sign up online via our ordering system ONLINE. Even if you call or email and we quote out a service, you must sign up using our online form.

    What this does:

    1. It tracks IP and geo locates the customer to cross check the address listed on the order. If they use a proxy, its pretty clear something is not right. If they use an AOL dialup in Texas and list their address as California, again - red flag.

    2. It requires they click through on our AUP/TOS agreement, confirming that they agree to these policies. This gives us further evidence and weight in possible disputes, or allows an out if the customer violate these.

    3. It requires they enter billing information that is automatically qualified or disqualified by our billing system via address verification.

    Once the order is submitted we send a copy of our AUP/TOS which must be signed and sent back to us either scanned and emailed, or faxed.

    We send a request for additional identification to verify that the card holder his who they say they are. This includes seeing the back of the card, which most fradusters never have. Other forms of ID include Passport and or Drivers License.

    Generally there are tell tail signs that disqualify most orders before they ever get this far. Doing so has managed to keep us from getting screwed 100% of the time. I would say that less than 2% of customers have had an issue with our requests. That is because by the time you've made it this far, we've already filtered the fraud out.

    I don't pay some service to tell me something's wrong 3 months later. Most of what I disqualify is in those tell tail signs (from experience), and simple google searches.

    Things to look for?

    Emails with initials that match the name they sign their signature with. Email names and emails that do not in any way match those names. Addresses that differ on information like what they provide you vs., what their license and or cc indicates. Paypal emails that differ from the one they signed up with. Paypal street addresses that differ from the address they provide you. Evasive or belligerent behavior. Impatience.

    Lastly, WE CALL THE PHONE NUMBER the customer provides at sign up and SPEAK TO THE ACTUAL PERSON that signed up!

    I've been doing this a very long time. I'll put my verification methods up against anyone, anywhere, and any of these "services" that charge people to do what you all can do yourselves.

    The only potential client you will piss off is the one that is going to screw you.
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  7. #57
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    There are some guys with .pl.ua which are making me really angry they are making like 5-10 orders and paying 10% of them and then paypal is marking them as fraud after a while, even maxmind need a while to mark them as fraud.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    Emails with initials that match the name they sign their signature with. Email names and emails that do not in any way match those names. Addresses that differ on information like what they provide you vs., what their license and or cc indicates. Paypal emails that differ from the one they signed up with. Paypal street addresses that differ from the address they provide you. Evasive or belligerent behavior. Impatience.

    Lastly, WE CALL THE PHONE NUMBER the customer provides at sign up and SPEAK TO THE ACTUAL PERSON that signed up!
    These are some good tips here. However, we have seen some recent fraud orders where the emails did match up - you can create a new gmail or hotmail account easily enough to match the payment details.

    Calling is another good option. Although we have seen some fraud that this doesn't even catch - it is like they hire a real person on Craigslist and have them place the order.

    It's tough to stay ahead of the fraudsters - but keep your eyes open and if something feels wrong, it probably is.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by razordave View Post
    These are some good tips here. However, we have seen some recent fraud orders where the emails did match up - you can create a new gmail or hotmail account easily enough to match the payment details.
    Agreed. I am not saying that we disqualify the order based on that. We just use it as a red flag that needs to be followed up. Hell, my paypal email differs from my personal email as well.

    It's just one thing to look at and scrutinize.


    Calling is another good option. Although we have seen some fraud that this doesn't even catch - it is like they hire a real person on Craigslist and have them place the order.
    Of course. But, again if you have more than one thing to check, the chances of getting past all of these checks is narrowed down quite a bit.

    The phone call is a good way to "DISQUALIFY" someone when someone answers the phone on the other end with "Hello, Dominos", or "sorry, but he's been dead for 3 months"...


    It's tough to stay ahead of the fraudsters - but keep your eyes open and if something feels wrong, it probably is.
    That is the best advice one can give. I know we're all anxious to do business in this crummy economy and its hard to turn down the potential BIG ORDER. But if its too good to be true, it probably is. And you stand to lose a lot more than you will ever gain.
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  10. #60
    There are also known proxy lists that you can check against to further reduce those that come through proxy.

  11. #61
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    We got 1-2 a day for the past few weeks, and since then we have activated our fraud screening in our order process. Obviously, this happens only to credit card order.

    Once our screening stopped the fraudulent orders a few times, they stopped trying.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by sady92 View Post
    There are some guys with .pl.ua which are making me really angry they are making like 5-10 orders and paying 10% of them and then paypal is marking them as fraud after a while, even maxmind need a while to mark them as fraud.

    We have too.. Now we just deny everything from pl.ua because 100% of them have come back as fraud.
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  13. #63
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    We're getting 2-3 per day but I have yet to see one get through MaxMind.
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  14. #64
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    We actually had a meeting today with our bank regarding fraud and change backs. We always had a policy of only accepting payments from verified PayPal accounts, verify any order via telephone and requesting identification when we believe it was deemed necessary but in the meeting today we've learned that if we just accepted payments from verified accounts and requested identification and a recent utility bill which address must match the PayPal account verified address, we can almost eliminate all fraud orders that come in from PayPal. While this may seem a lot of work on the clients end, think about it for when you get a new cell phone through Verizon, AT&T or open a new bank account. To provide these documents take very little time and we are also going to start to utilize Echosign from Adobe to verify orders and get agreements signed in a timely manner. Now we do expect to lose between 1-5% of legitimate orders from people who don't want to send us these documents and that sits okay with us, our bank and investors as I rather lose that 1-5% then allow >5% fraud orders come through our doors, especially since we are still considered a start-up. Hopefully this helps some.
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  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by tmzVPS - Jonathan View Post
    We're getting 2-3 per day but I have yet to see one get through MaxMind.
    Really? Maybe a bit irrelevent since I don't deal in dedicated servers, but MaxMind has let a few through for me before, although it's generally fairly easy to spot. I would still recommend MaxMind though - it does stop the bulk of them, and most people seem to give up once they realise Maxmind is just blocking them.

    With Google Checkout you can view the customer's name and address which is useful for verification - in my experience most fraudsters don't bother using a matching name / address on their orders. That said, not accepting Google Checkout actually reduced the number of fraudulent orders I got by quite a number. I haven't really had any issues with PayPal.

    I actually do find a lot of the orders come from Morocco. Generally even emailing them gives it away since they tend to use generic names like "Bob Smith" yet have the same grammar and spelling that I find people from Morroco tend to use with English.

    I'd say the best advice is just to review any suspicious orders manually and go with your gut instinct. It's better to stop 1% of real orders than having to deal with 5% of your orders getting charged back.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by senselt View Post
    I recently banned anyone from Indonesia from viewing my website. Anyone from Indonesia will be forwarded to another site. My credit card fraud problems dropped by > 50%.

    They could still use a proxy to view the site and order but it still seemed to help greatly. Might be worthwhile to try the same thing for nigeria and ghana.
    Aren't these guys using credits cards from the US anyway? Then I see no reason to ban an entire country as it should be easy to spot the fraud?

    Indonesian IP + US credit card = fraud

    Or what am I missing?

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7031 View Post
    I actually do find a lot of the orders come from Morocco. Generally even emailing them gives it away since they tend to use generic names like "Bob Smith" yet have the same grammar and spelling that I find people from Morroco tend to use with English.
    Interesting, we see a lot of orders being placed within the US but then account logins and support tickets opened from IP Addresses in Morocco.
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  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Rens View Post
    We've even had one fraud case with matching ID and bank card. I can recommend asking for a home utility bill to verify the address. This is not something that is offered on the "ID market".
    A utility bill is pretty easy to fake the address on. Just use helvetica in photoshop : P I don't know why places ask for that, I don't see it as providing anything more than an annoyance to me as a customer, and if I didn't have one I could fake one.
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  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by gordonrp View Post
    We experienced the following with a PayPal order, which is why we started requiring ID:
    • customer called our office, discussed custom setup for over an hour
    • client paid via paypal high $x,xxx amount for 8x SAS, dual proc, high RAM, RAID, dedicated gigabit server setup
    • customer IP geo location matched phone number area code
    • call back to the client answered promptly
    • custom hardware ordered from our vendor
    • 4 or 5 days later paypal reversed the funds stating that the paypal account had been hijacked/stolen
    • call back to the client's phone number resulted in no answer, found out it was a google voice number
    • found out the client IP was a VPS machine
    • emails to the client started bouncing

    Most fraudsters I would guess don't ever get on the phone with you, but with the availability of google voice / skype, etc phone verification simply isn't enough. It's a pain forcing customers to provide ID etc, but losing a few hundred dollars in sales is better than getting scammed with custom setups (which probably would of been used to send masses of SPAM).

    Whatever you decide to do, just realize that you can't be too careful. You either risk fraud against yourself or risk turning away legitimate clients.
    For a custom server order I can definitely see how that would be a big problem. For your specific case you've given, it wouldn't have been a serious problem if it was hardware you already owned and typically offered to customers. For that matter, you have the same problem when offering even a legitimate customer a custom server as they could stop paying at any time (even if under contract) and then you're stuck with this albatross. It just makes more sense to only offer servers that you have a ready market for if the customer cancels. If they want something that you can't easily rent to someone else later on, they should be colocating. If you have a regular supply of customers who want a server configured like this, no problem. If you don't, it's a problem regardless of fraud or not.
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  20. #70
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    It's funny how fraud clients "usually" order every single thing there is on the order form.

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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TmzHosting View Post
    It's funny how fraud clients "usually" order every single thing there is on the order form.
    Haha, this is so sad, but so true ... we've seen this on so many occasions...
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by TmzHosting View Post
    It's funny how fraud clients "usually" order every single thing there is on the order form.

    - Daniel
    As well as the highest plan and/or the longest term avail.

  23. #73
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    We have noticed some other interesting patterns which indicate that there is fraud involved.

    Gmail/Hotmail/Ymail addresses with digits in them. For instance: bobsmith7@gmail.com -- 100% fraud

    Also some interesting new freemail domains have shown up lately: @myway.com, etc...

    I'm usually very careful when customers use freemail addresses, but then again, we have so many legit customers using gmail.com. Sometimes it's very hard to distinguish good from bad and sometimes it's too obvious that you wonder why MaxMind did not notice.
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  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by bhavicp View Post
    This REALLY annoys me. Happens to our large orders as well and there's nothing you can do about it.

    It seems people have found a way to easily pass 2co's fraud checking.

    At least with PayPal you find out within a week or two.
    With paypal I usually don't find out until about 2 months in. Someone uses the card without a paypal account (unregistered) or creates a new account for this purpose, and then they get two payments through before the victim realizes their card has been stolen and issues a charge back. We're usually about to suspend the customer for nonpayment on their third month when we get the chargeback notice from paypal.
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  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by quantumphysics View Post
    Also, might want to check timezones.

    Amazon AWS verification called me (in a completely incomprehensible indian accent) at four in the morning, then five, then six. Six times.

    If at all possible you should call at the same time the person placed the order. If it's legitimate, they'll be awake. If it's not legitimate, they won't be.
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