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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
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    Gainesville
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    23

    Does the data center and the ownership of the data center matter.

    I figured there would be no better source for feedback than this list.

    If a dedicated hosting providor ownes and operates their own tier 1 data center, would this benefit be attractive enough to leverage over a providor without the benefit?

    Would this leverage hold true if the cost was slightly higher?

    Craig O'Neil

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    379
    Whether your provider owns their own data center or they use a third party doesn't matter, providing...

    - In either case you want to know the quality of the data center
    - The owner of the data center is financially viable
    - The owner of the data center knows how to operate the data center

    Sometimes owning your own center can be detrimental. The fixed costs to operate a center is high. If the company has enough revenue to support that cost, great. If not, that could be a problem.
    Brad @ Xiolink
    XIOLINK. Your data...always within reach.®
    http://www.xiolink.com
    1-877-4-XIOLINK [+01 314 621 5500]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Parsippany
    Posts
    181
    I can't think of a single tier 1 provider that offers dedicated servers though.
    Matthew Winship
    15 Minute Servers / Net Access Corp.
    www.15minuteservers.com
    www.nac.net

  4. #4
    It's even hard to think of a Tier 1 provider who's financially stable these days

    Having been in three data centers in two years, I can say that the financial stability of the company is very important unless you enjoy changing IPs and racking servers every few months. What I look for now is someone who truly knows their core competencies and has built their business around them.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Kingsland, Texas
    Posts
    21
    Ahhh... The golden rule in good supplier relationships. All vendors have to make a profit in order to continue being your supplier, you just want it to be a reasonable profit.

  6. #6
    Indeed, you want a combination that doesn't go belly up.

    The rest shouldn't matter.
    General Manager (512) 260-2523
    Global Gate Systems LLC. http://www.ggsys.net
    Collocation, monitoring, remote backups and consulting.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Kelowna B.C.
    Posts
    1,687
    Owning a DC is not as important as the service that is provided and the viability of the company.

    The good part about owning a DC is you have control over the bandwidth providers in your building. Those who own their own DC don't share their space with anyone else. This is important if you think you'll go big, or you want to colocate boxes and give your customers access to them. Basically, owning a DC gives you more control of your destiny.
    If you're a customer, I'd typically go with a company that owns their own DC even if the cost is a little more - with the experience i've had those who own their own DC provide better support (they can do what they want with their DC), and they are more accountable to business decisions. (larger investors etc..) Those who rent space in a shared DC (from my experience only) do not provide the same service that I get from a DC owned company.
    101sitehosting | Affordable Web and Email Hosting
    Shared | Reseller | 24/7 Support | NSA Free
    SPECIAL OFFER | Contact Us: 1-855-608-6174

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    New Orleans, LA "Nawlins"
    Posts
    1,131
    It should not matter as long as the datacenter has competent employees with the right expertise and customer service skills

    Also important is the competency of management in charge of the datacenter. They need to be business savvy and not invent issues for the nickel and dime approach.

    WebHosts are only as good as their datacenters. They screw up, then you're screwed up...and your clients will come for you, not them.
    intellec
    ....you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get....

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,114
    For our situation, it made much more sense to use an existing DC. We are in a carrier neutral building that has over 40 providers at one meet me room just 40 ft. from our routers and racks.

    While we already have redundent tier 1 carriers, it's nice to know we can add any of the 40 within about 30 mins.

    The cost of trying to do that on your own are beyond the reach of 99.99% of the hosting companies out there.

    Our situation has also worked out well because we maintain a small support office right in the DC. If someone needs a break during the day or night the DC staff do our monitoring for us. Also if there is a serious network problem we have a top level support person one door down 24 hours aday.

    There is really no direct advantage to owning your own DC today. There are too many large companies with excess space and bandwidth that can provide quality service and support at a price that is much cheaper than you can do it on your own.
    SiteSouth
    Atlanta, GA and Las Vegas, NV. Colocation

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    DualUnmeteredDSL50 VAN,BC
    Posts
    1,015
    sure it does... what does it cost you to bring in a GigE for redundancy rackmy? what do u think it costs verio or uunet or sprint or at&t to bring in a GigE? if something is wrong with a GigE to your facility, and something is wrong with a GigE to one of at&t's own facilities... which one u think they'll fix first? how many 24/7 noc people (general question, point at any facility) do you have watching the global routes to your datacenter? also... tier-1s that provides dedicated servers? 1st thing that pops to mind is: verio...

    mgphoto... i'd put that in the same boat as being right with the tier-1 provider... as the service is right out of the provider's facility... not out of a private facility... makes a world of difference in my eyes... heh

    Originally posted by Brad@RackMy
    Whether your provider owns their own data center or they use a third party doesn't matter, providing...

    - In either case you want to know the quality of the data center
    - The owner of the data center is financially viable
    - The owner of the data center knows how to operate the data center

    Sometimes owning your own center can be detrimental. The fixed costs to operate a center is high. If the company has enough revenue to support that cost, great. If not, that could be a problem.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,114
    I'm not really sure what you’re trying to say Netdude but, we can have any one of 40 bandwidth providers on line in 30 minutes or less. You really can’t have that in a private DC facility. The cost of having this type of permanent "in house" access is prohibitive to all but the top DCs.

    If you own a DC that only has one or two providers that have problems how quickly do you think you can get new lines in and connected? Last time I checked here it was about a 2 to 4 week wait for a new install.

    Also, as far as repair time, if you are in a carrier neutral building such as ours, each provider may have dozens of ISP customers in that one location. Are they going to take care of this location first or some guy who has a couple of T1s working out of his “garage“ DC?

    I don't know about other DCs but the one we lease offices and access from have a minimum of 3 full time people 24 hours a day. These guys are top of the line techs and can manage any server or router problems that may arise. That does not include any of our own techs.

    All this costs me as a business is normal bandwidth costs, that which I really use, plus a small additional amount for the offices. I pay less for this then the cost of just having 2 lines run to a private DC. Call up 40 providers and see what the monthly cost is just to have the lines run and installed, even if you don’t use them. Add to that the cost of 24 hour security, a 750 kW standby generator, pre-action, dry pipe sprinkler system and A/C units maintaining a climate of 72 degrees (+/- 5) and 30-60% humidity, N+1 redundancy.

    As far as what we do as a business, as long as it’s legal, we do what we want to do, we own our own routers and servers. I can do anything here that I could do in a private DC.

    I can’t see any advantage is to having your own DC.
    SiteSouth
    Atlanta, GA and Las Vegas, NV. Colocation

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
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    DualUnmeteredDSL50 VAN,BC
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    1,015
    i was saying... being directly in a provider's DC is better than being in a private one (like a carrier neutral one)... why? because you are directly on the backbone and any network issues obviously get priority... ... ...

    mgphoto, i had misinterpreted the type of datacenter you were in (carrier-neutral/private vs directly inside tier-1 provider)... ... ...

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Gainesville
    Posts
    23
    Atlantic.Net Opens Data Center in Orlando
    This month, Atlantic.Net announced the opening of its new 25,000-square-foot data center in Orlando, Fla. The facility, located at 440 W. Kennedy Blvd., will serve as the hub of network operations and will be the company’s second largest employee base in the state.

    Combining sophisticated technology infrastructure with high-end hosting services to meet your advanced online business needs, the facility offers numerous advancements including locking colocation cabinets, chain link cages, and roof rights for antenna systems, as well as a state-of-the-art network operations center, a conference room, and offices for Atlantic.Net staff.

    The data center is secured 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Biometric palm scanners and proximity card readers control access to the facility and the colocation floor. The property is monitored via closed circuit digital cameras with 24-hour recording and 30-day digital video storage. Advanced monitoring devices constantly check the facility’s critical systems, and a VESDA air-sampling system and dry-pipe pre-action system provide zoned fire detection and suppression.

    Redundant AC/DC power and uninterruptible power supply (UPS) systems ensure that your equipment is up and running even in the event of an extended utility failure. In addition, the center’s generator can run the entire site at full load for at least 24 hours without refueling. Environmental controls include heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) systems that regulate temperature and humidity throughout the facility
    Craig O'Neil
    Senior Internet Consultant
    www.atlantic.net
    800.521.5881 ext 6201

  14. #14
    Originally posted by netdude
    i was saying... being directly in a provider's DC is better than being in a private one (like a carrier neutral one)... why? because you are directly on the backbone and any network issues obviously get priority... ... ...

    mgphoto, i had misinterpreted the type of datacenter you were in (carrier-neutral/private vs directly inside tier-1 provider)... ... ...
    If you are inside a carrier's DC are they going to route your traffic via their competitors?

    By being in a carrier neutral we use BGP over multiple carriers, if one of the carriers has problems with their network we just don't quite care.

    So the benefit that the carrier gives preferences to their own datacenters may not be such a benefit after all.

    And besides, a carrier will give priority based on cost, if the cost of being done at a DC that they don't own is larger than their DC the priority will go to the one they don't own.
    General Manager (512) 260-2523
    Global Gate Systems LLC. http://www.ggsys.net
    Collocation, monitoring, remote backups and consulting.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    DualUnmeteredDSL50 VAN,BC
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    1,015
    Originally posted by a_alonso
    If you are inside a carrier's DC are they going to route your traffic via their competitors?
    of course they are (why? because if they're one of the big providers, they will probably have peering with this competitor... might as well put that free bandwidth to use, eh?)... thats the entire purpose of a backbone... actually, you'll notice... on a traceroute, the data leave's your ISP's network as soon as possible... thats true in both directions... thats just the providers trying to use as little of their network as possible... cases where that is not true is when there is peering directly to the destination network, even if it be further than some local route going through a 3rd party network... which is why cogent sucks, but at&t/etc/etc/etc kick a$$ (they have peering with all their partners in pretty much every major city)...

    so yes... the "getting data off own network as fast as possible unless theres a peer" does coincide with your statement regarding taking the cheapest route... ... ... ...

    and BGP... so thats supposed to make your network invulnerable? tell that to burst.net or theplanet.com or nac.net any other provider on these forums that has recently had a downtime... just because you have multiple providers doesn't mean data will automatically reroute to the available path... its true in theory, but not practically... ... ... ... then again, i guess then the carrier's backbone can be considered one REALLY BIG bgp network... eh?

    also... carrier neutral... that mean you have to get a feed from each and every provider... adding that extra cost... ... ...

    atlantic.net ... in the past i had repeatedly tried to contact you guys for colo... repeatedly... left voicemails and all... in the end, i gave up because i never got a single reponse, whether it be voicemail or a call... so i pretty much chalked u guys off as bullsh*t... really a shame... because i took my 300Mbps at that time to another provider... who was really happy to have me... added to that, this thread/forum is not somewhere for you to advertise your datacenter... ya know what? the majority of the providers on this forums has a datacenter comparable to your own... so you aren't all that special... k?

  16. #16
    As to how fast the packet leaves the carrier I won't arguee, as it doesn't affect the point I was trying to address.

    A carrier DC may or may not be where they have peers, if multiple carriers are available at the carrier's DC then it starts to look more like a carrier neutral DC.

    I have also posted on a different thread that BGP has to be done correctly otherwise all bets are off

    The point I was trying to address is that being at a carrier's DC because a network downtime on a carrier's gigE is going to get higher priority at their DC may in fact not be the case.

    As with everything else there is a lot particular issues in each datacenter.

    The original question was related towards a "dedicated hosting provider owned" DC versus using a dedicated hosting provider that doesn't own their DC. It is in this perspective that I consider that there are no significant benefits either way.
    General Manager (512) 260-2523
    Global Gate Systems LLC. http://www.ggsys.net
    Collocation, monitoring, remote backups and consulting.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    DualUnmeteredDSL50 VAN,BC
    Posts
    1,015
    Originally posted by a_alonso
    The original question was related towards a "dedicated hosting provider owned" DC versus using a dedicated hosting provider that doesn't own their DC. It is in this perspective that I consider that there are no significant benefits either way.
    oh... this question... i guess i was totally off on the whole thread... hmm... my bad... but this question? i think it does make a difference (not speaking of carrier neutral situation, speaking of situation where the dedicated service provider is simply getting colo+transit from another upstream)... why? because say there is a network problem... what do you do? if the company owns the feeds... then atleast they can do something about it as usually it can be corrected at the local router level (thats where most problems seem to be solvable)... whereas if some other company owns DC/feeds... all u end up hearing is: i contacted the provider, we are just waiting on it... that and a bunch of dumb looks... i mean... wouldn't u want to be dealing with a company from 1 level up, that way, when you say something, someone that can do something about can correct the issue...

    on the flip side... if there are problems with a bandwidth provider in general (loss of peering, untolerable latency, etc)...

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