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  1. #1

    Thumbs down Baltic Servers [[billing issue]] - Asking 50Euro for backups ..Please help

    I have been a customer of baltic servers since 6months(approx.) never had any problem except downtimes. Since last 4days they have shutdown my server without any reason ..saying fake reason 'iptables' is ddosing another server. This fake reason was shown not only to me ..but also to other customers of baltic whom they wanted to scam .. and also previously in this forum someone already posted about this type of scam of baltic.

    2days back, They gave me backup for 4hours .. but i couldn't backup in that time because of too many images on the server. Now all i wanted is more backup time and i have paid service till 14th. Now, They are balckmailing me to send 50euro ..then only they will unsuspend server.

    What should i do ? Contact United Nations Human rights Commission ?

    or Should i file fraud report to bank and chargeback . And block their merchant paypal so no they can't scam more victims?
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  2. Thread Summary The OP alleges that the provider falsely accused him of DDoSing from the server he rented. And now they want payment to supply him backups.

    The thread evolves to a discussion regarding the legality of the first suggestion of, "Pay the 50 Euro and chargeback the 50 Euro later."

    Post #51, the provider states their side of the story.

    Post $52, a moderator closes the thread with summation.
    ... The server is formatted, this thread is going in circles. I don't see what BalticServers did wrong but you need to learn how to take backups.

    I can't see any reason to keep this open since your data is gone and the server is formatted. You simply waited too long trying to force their hand and now you have nothing.

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    Pay the 50 Euro and chargeback the 50 Euro later.
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  4. #3
    Be Aware of this Company! It's a Big Fruad giving 0% supports and just downtime. I was also a client of baltic but suddenly they shutdown my vps saying that i am Ddosing other sites when i talked to Manager he said no ur sites has been Ddosed that's y we shutdown ur Vps. Admins saying something different and managers different. When i asked for Backup they also want to pay Xtra fee. but ThANKS God i got the backup and move to a new host.

    Bad host don't choose Baltic at all u jus loss your money nothing else.
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  5. #4
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    seems to be alot of misscommunication between the staff. I get charged more than usual and they told me i was playing games with them and told a big fat lie about me ordering and canceling ips every month. Which is untrue and i told them to check my emails sent to them as evidence. After that the rude manager never admitted he told me a lie and never apologized. They never replied back.

    Also one manager gave me 2 free ip free of cost when the other manaager decided to charge me for those free ips months after. i asked the manager 4 times if the free ips is invalid but he never ever respond to my question instead he just tell me the price per ip is 80 cent. He never aknowledged my question at all.
    When i explained that to the manager 6 more times that the other sales manager gave me the free ip and asked for clarification he just respponded "ok" and left the chat.
    Whats the concerning matter is when i emailed he said he fixed the invoice but instead he just removed the invoice for this month but i still have to pay for the new price.

    So yes the balticserver has lack of communication with each other and bad organization

    another bad thing with this company is they dont have tech support for the weekends. It happened that my server was down during the weekend and the "manager" told me the techadmin will be available on monday to investigate the downtime.
    Last edited by Maikon; 06-05-2011 at 05:36 PM.
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  6. #5
    wow! I am sorry to hear of all your difficult time. hope all works out well for the OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    Pay the 50 Euro and chargeback the 50 Euro later.
    HORRIBLE HORRIBLE terrible unethical bad advice.

    Do you conduct business this way?

    To the OP:

    1) If the files are worth that much to you pay it. If not, don't. Either way make sure you have offsite backups in the future and you won't have this happen again.

    2) I am going to assume you are joking about contacting the UN but don't waste anyone's time trying to make a big deal out of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolraul View Post
    HORRIBLE HORRIBLE terrible unethical bad advice.

    Do you conduct business this way?

    To the OP:

    1) If the files are worth that much to you pay it. If not, don't. Either way make sure you have offsite backups in the future and you won't have this happen again.

    2) I am going to assume you are joking about contacting the UN but don't waste anyone's time trying to make a big deal out of this.
    Based on how it is being explained, you are encouraging him to give in to blackmail? This company should be exposed if this is a scam they engage in.
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  9. #8
    Pay the 50 Euro and chargeback the 50 Euro later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolraul View Post
    HORRIBLE HORRIBLE terrible unethical bad advice.

    Do you conduct business this way?

    To the OP:

    1) If the files are worth that much to you pay it. If not, don't. Either way make sure you have offsite backups in the future and you won't have this happen again.

    2) I am going to assume you are joking about contacting the UN but don't waste anyone's time trying to make a big deal out of this.
    I disagree with you that this was "Horrible terrible unethical bad advice"

    The company did not provide the services that was paid for that should be active until the 14th and then brought up a seemingly bogus excuse (confirmed by another member) to terminate clients and asks for "backup retrieval" fee. This was confirmed several times by several members here.

    Based on what was said, the only unethical practice engaged here is by the company.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HBK216 View Post
    Based on how it is being explained, you are encouraging him to give in to blackmail? This company should be exposed if this is a scam they engage in.
    Perhaps they should be exposed but I can say with 100% certainty that at least in the country I live in and I assume others that what you are suggesting is ILLEGAL. I don't think it is, I know it is and I know of specific cases where people have been found guilty in court for doing what was suggested.

    IT IS BAD ADVICE.

    You cannot agree to pay for something then knowingly turn around and chargeback to obtain that service or product for free. It is called FRAUD here and I would hate to have some perhaps well meaning but confused member of this thread suggest for someone to do something illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    I disagree with you that this was "Horrible terrible unethical bad advice"

    The company did not provide the services that was paid for that should be active until the 14th and then brought up a seemingly bogus excuse (confirmed by another member) to terminate clients and asks for "backup retrieval" fee. This was confirmed several times by several members here.

    Based on what was said, the only unethical practice engaged here is by the company.
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are still wrong to suggest they commit a crime.
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    I argee with Coolraul, Theirs way TOO much chargeback talk on these boards as of recent, Paypal doesnt cover intangible goods and certain banks will not entertain doing chargebacks over pocket change...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolraul View Post
    You cannot agree to pay for something then knowingly turn around and chargeback to obtain that service or product for free. It is called FRAUD here and I would hate to have some perhaps well meaning but confused member of this thread suggest for someone to do something illegal.
    Very true, this is indeed considered fraud. A chargeback can be raised against an unauthorized transaction or where the paid for services have not been yielded.

    If you authorize the payment and then try to charge it back, you are committing fraud or at the very least wasting your bank's time, both of which banks don't like. Not to mention that the cost of raising the chargeback is likely going to be 20 - 40% of the 50 EUR this is all about.

    Find a different solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolraul View Post
    Perhaps they should be exposed but I can say with 100% certainty that at least in the country I live in and I assume others that what you are suggesting is ILLEGAL. I don't think it is, I know it is and I know of specific cases where people have been found guilty in court for doing what was suggested.

    IT IS BAD ADVICE.

    You cannot agree to pay for something then knowingly turn around and chargeback to obtain that service or product for free. It is called FRAUD here and I would hate to have some perhaps well meaning but confused member of this thread suggest for someone to do something illegal.
    As I understand it, a signed contract or "agreement" under blackmail or duress is illegal and can be nullified. It is well within his right to chargeback, the credit card company will determine if it is a valid chargeback or not based on the blackmail activity. There is no fraud involved when initiating a chargeback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolraul View Post
    Either way make sure you have offsite backups in the future and you won't have this happen again.
    This point should really be getting more attention.

    I'd even go as far as to say if you don't have offsite backups you deserve to lose your data.

    Ethics of this specific situation aside, you should be able to walk away from a server offline for any reason (Billing dispute, server failure, datacenter failure, hacking/defacement) and re-establish your business from backups. If you can't do that, then you've implicitly declared your data has no value and can be lost without consequence.

    If you get caught playing it fast and loose with customer data, then you're going to be stuck paying for the resulting consequences either in lost business, data recovery fees (in the case of failed hard drives), or questionable fees like the one being discussed here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    There is no fraud involved when initiating a chargeback.
    Sorry, But if you pay for a service solely to receive said service then issue a chargeback, Yes that is fraud

    I.E:
    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    Pay the 50 Euro and chargeback the 50 Euro later.
    That is fraud!
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    I also heard chargebacks through bank/credit card can effect your credit rating, is it really worth it for 50 euros?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Sorry, But if you pay for a service solely to receive said service then issue a chargeback, Yes that is fraud

    I.E:


    That is fraud!
    I don't feel it is fraud, the reason for the chargeback is not "unauthorized" usage of the credit card, the reason will be for blackmail, extortion, under duress, etc. and if the credit card company agrees with my position, then they allow the chargeback, if they do not agree, then they will deny the chargeback. There is no fraud involved when initiating a chargeback.

    When you file a chargeback, you have to give a statement on why you are doing so, if the OP explains that they are filing a chargeback for the reasons given truthfully, how is that fraud?
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    Quote Originally Posted by parky1 View Post
    I also heard chargebacks through bank/credit card can effect your credit rating, is it really worth it for 50 euros?
    I don't know where you heard that but that is simply not true. Think about it. If somebody used my credit card fraudulently, my credit rating will take a hit? We as consumers are protected under federal law for these type of issues such as identity theft, unauthorized use, etc.

    Looks like there are a lot of misunderstanding on what a chargeback is and nobody fully understand what rights they have when they use credit.
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    You can pay it under protest and win your money back in court. Make note when/if you decide to pay their blackmail that it's under protest.
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    This is really a difficult situation. If its very necessary then pay it and transfer the files asap. And then do some -ve marketing for them as you are doing now.
    Otherwise if you have some back up and you feel the damage is not much then, kick them and start again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    I don't feel it is fraud, the reason for the chargeback is not "unauthorized" usage of the credit card, and if the credit card company agrees with my position, then they allow the chargeback, if they do not agree, then they will deny the chargeback.

    When you file a chargeback, you have to give a statement on why you are doing so, if the OP explains that they are filing a chargeback for the reasons given truthfully, how is that fraud?
    So two wrongs make a right does it?

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    the reason will be for blackmail, extortion, under duress, etc.
    The OP will have to visit a lawyer if this is present.


    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    There is no fraud involved when initiating a chargeback.
    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    Pay the 50 Euro and chargeback the 50 Euro later.


    Thats the thing this kind of chargeback would be fraudulent because of your intent to cause harm.

    Its abit like going out purchasing a nice $3000 TV going home and charging back the payment because want it for free...

    Fraudulent Charge-Back schemes

    There is a class of email spam (usually sent to commercial / corporate email addresses) where the spammer makes an offer to purchase goods (usually not specifically identified) from a vendor. In the email, the spammer makes it clear that they intend to pay for the goods using a credit card. The spammer provides the shipping address for the goods, and requests a product and price-list from the vendor in the initial email. It has been speculated[by whom?] that this is some form of charge-back scheme, whereby the spammer is using a valid credit card but intends to request a charge-back to reverse the charge while at the same time retaining the goods that were shipped to them.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_...e-Back_schemes
    Last edited by Server Management; 06-06-2011 at 07:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    So two wrongs make a right does it?
    Two wrongs? Don't think so! The host is clearly wrong here and if the credit card company sides with the OP, then the only side that is wrong is the host.


    The OP will have to visit a lawyer if this is present.
    This is such a small amount that it would fall under small claims, that is if the OP chooses to escalate it to that. But a chargeback I believe should be more than enough to resolve this blackmail issue.



    Thats the thing this kind of chargeback would be fraudulent because of your intent to cause harm.

    Its abit like going out purchasing a nice $3000 TV going home and charging back the payment because want it for free...



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_...e-Back_schemes
    Nope. The OP's intent would be to get back the money that was blackmailed from him. Contracts and agreements that are entered under blackmail and duress are illegal and considered nulled/void.

    A bit like going out purchasing a $3000 TV and charging back? I don't think so. Was any element of blackmail or duress involved? Didn't think so.
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    And that link you posted is totally different from the situation here. I think you need to do more research before taking up this argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    The host is clearly wrong here
    Theirs two sides to every story.

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    And that link you posted is totally different from the situation here. I think you need to do more research before taking up this argument.
    Why exactly, You have basicly said pay the money get the backups once you have the backups on your local machine file a chargeback, This is fraudulent no matter how you look at it.

    If said company is using such wrong business practices such as blackmail then the correct route would be to seek legal advice from a lawyer not issuing unlawful and unnecessary chargebacks in order to gain a copy of said backups...
    Last edited by Server Management; 06-06-2011 at 07:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    Two wrongs? Don't think so! The host is clearly wrong here and if the credit card company sides with the OP, then the only side that is wrong is the host.
    2 wrongs.

    1) OP failed to make backups.
    2) Host charging a questionable data recovery fee.

    Filing a chargeback would be the 3rd wrong here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaethco View Post
    2 wrongs.

    1) OP failed to make backups.
    2) Host charging a questionable data recovery fee.

    Filing a chargeback would be the 3rd wrong here.
    At least someone see's common sense around here

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    The OP's intent would be to get back the money that was blackmailed from him.
    After over looking baltic servers TOS I notice:

    4. Backups and Data Loss
    Your use of the service is at your sole risk. Balticservers.com is not responsible for files and data residing on your account. You agree to take full responsibility for files and data transferred and to maintain all appropriate backup of files and data stored on Balticservers.com servers.
    Legally the OP doesnt have a leg to stand on either regarding his backups as they argeed to the TOS upon signing up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Theirs two sides to every story.



    Why exactly, You have basicly said pay the money get the backups once you have the backups on your local machine file a chargeback, This is fraudulent no matter how you look at it.

    If said company is using such wrong business practices such as blackmail then the correct route would be to seek legal advice from a lawyer not issuing unlawful and unnecessary chargebacks in order to gain a copy of said backups...
    If the OP needs the files quickly, the quickest action would be to put up with the blackmail and file a chargeback. Going through your suggestion of a lawyer would take weeks or perhaps months.

    And the act of filing a chargeback is not illegal, it seems you do not understand this. The OP is filing a chargeback with the statement that he paid the "backup retrieval fee" under duress. If the credit card company agrees with him, then the chargeback is processed, if they do not agree, then it is denied. There is no fraud involved here. The OP is not claiming unauthorized use or making up bogus reasons when filing the chargeback. I suggest you read rules and regulations on chargebacks to get a better understanding of how it works.

    Filing a chargeback could or could not be wrong here but that is for the credit card company to decide, not people in this thread. If it is wrong, then the chargeback is denied, there is no fraud involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    At least someone see's common sense around here
    My common sense is based on the law.

    Legally the OP doesnt have a leg to stand on either regarding his backups as they argeed to the TOS upon signing up.
    Either they give him the backup or don't give him the backup. Where does it say they can blackmail the client for 50 Euros?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    And the act of filing a chargeback is not illegal
    It's fraud if you make a purchase with the premeditated intent of filing the chargeback.

    The conditions that led to the state of duress were only established due to neglect on behalf of the OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaethco View Post
    2 wrongs.

    1) OP failed to make backups.
    2) Host charging a questionable data recovery fee.

    Filing a chargeback would be the 3rd wrong here.
    I find it ridiculous that you are comparing something that is a slip of the mind (failed to make backups) to a host charging a questionable data recovery fee (blackmail, an illegal activity). The OP forgot to make backups, something that all of us probably forgot to do before. But the host is intentionally holding the OP hostage for 50 Euros. Only the host is in the wrong here IMO.

    I don't think filing a chargeback is wrong, it is well within the consumer's rights to file a chargeback. A chargeback still requires the bank to approve/deny it, we can only say that it is wrong if the bank deny the chargeback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaethco View Post
    It's fraud if you make a purchase with the premeditated intent of filing the chargeback.

    The conditions that led to the state of duress were only established due to neglect on behalf of the OP.
    I disagree, there is a reason that there is a law for this, that contracts/agreements are nulled/void if they are made under duress. The duress was caused when the host blackmailed the OP for 50 Euros. They could've either gave him his backup for free or do not give him the backup at all.

    I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    If the OP needs the files quickly, the quickest action would be to put up with the blackmail and file a chargeback.
    Again this is fraudulent as per your intent!

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    Going through your suggestion of a lawyer would take weeks or perhaps months.
    This is the correct way of dealing with legal disputes!

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    And the act of filing a chargeback is not illegal
    Depends on how you go about doing the chargeback in this case its FRAUD!

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    it seems you do not understand this.
    I understand fraud fine and clear!

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    The OP is filing a chargeback with the statement that he paid the "backup retrieval fee" under duress.
    duress or coercion refers to a situation whereby a person performs an act as a result of violence, threat or other pressure against the person.
    Is baltic servers holding a gun to the OP's head?


    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    I suggest you read rules and regulations on chargebacks to get a better understanding of how it works.
    Oh Really...

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    The OP forgot to make backups
    Thats not baltic servers problem TBH

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    They could've either gave him his backup for free or do not give him the backup at all.
    I guess baltic servers are in business to provide free backups to clients are they, even though their TOS states otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    Only the host is in the wrong here IMO.
    Is it because their not giving away free service?

    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    Where does it say they can blackmail the client for 50 Euros?
    Balticservers.com reserves the right to change the monthly payment amount and any other charges at anytime.
    Last edited by Server Management; 06-06-2011 at 08:45 PM.
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    This is going no where, I've stated my position and you've stated yours, time to move on.

    This actually happened to my friend several years ago and this was exactly what he did except that he asked the credit card company first. I suggest the OP do the same and ask his credit card company first if there is justification for a chargeback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    A chargeback still requires the bank to approve/deny it, we can only say that it is wrong if the bank deny the chargeback.
    Banks are not above the law, nor do they make it. Just remember that when you're arrested for "conspiracy to incite fraud" and the person you advised to go this route is sued for "obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception".
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    chasebug, not really seeing why you don't get the big picture here...the minute he submits a payment from his credit card in the amount of $50 for the so called "blackmail" payment, he is AUTHORIZING that payment, and to charge that amount back would be fraud, because he would knowingly authorize a payment, just to chargeback it later.

    As was said earlier in the thread, you can't go out to a store, buy an expensive tv, then go home and initiate a chargeback because you wanted the tv for free. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

    Chargeback should only be used as a means to regain money from transactions that weren't authorized, ie someone stole your credit card info from Sony then goes out and buys $2,000 in porn. Directly authorizing a payment, and receiving a service, just to charge it back because you don't think it's fair is fraud.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Obvious View Post
    chasebug, not really seeing why you don't get the big picture here...the minute he submits a payment from his credit card in the amount of $50 for the so called "blackmail" payment, he is AUTHORIZING that payment, and to charge that amount back would be fraud, because he would knowingly authorize a payment, just to chargeback it later.

    As was said earlier in the thread, you can't go out to a store, buy an expensive tv, then go home and initiate a chargeback because you wanted the tv for free. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

    Chargeback should only be used as a means to regain money from transactions that weren't authorized, ie someone stole your credit card info from Sony then goes out and buys $2,000 in porn. Directly authorizing a payment, and receiving a service, just to charge it back because you don't think it's fair is fraud.
    Chargeback is not only for unauthorized purchases, you are missing out on a lot of protection if that is what you think is allowed under a chargeback. The issue is not that he authorized the blackmail payment, the issue is that it was authorized under duress. The OP would not be filing the chargeback based on unauthorized use of the card.

    My position still remains it is not fraud. As with what happened with my friend a few years ago, the bank investigated the claim and found the merchant at fault, it is not fraud.

    You guys keep repeating the same arguments over and over again even though I have debunked all of them. The fact remains, the OP should check with the bank first and then map out what he should do next.
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    Quote Originally Posted by F-DNS View Post
    Banks are not above the law, nor do they make it. Just remember that when you're arrested for "conspiracy to incite fraud" and the person you advised to go this route is sued for "obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception".
    I highly doubt that, especially over 50 Euros. The OP is simply exercising his rights with the bank's permission. No fraud is occurring here.
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  40. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    1,648
    Quote Originally Posted by chasebug View Post
    The fact remains, the OP should check with the bank first and then map out what he should do next.
    It's kind of pointless since Baltic has most certainly read this thread by now.
    Eric Spaeth
    Enterprise Network Engineer :: Hosting Hobbyist :: Master of Procrastination
    "The really cool thing about facts is they remain true regardless of who states them."
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  41. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,320
    Quote Originally Posted by spaethco View Post
    It's kind of pointless since Baltic has most certainly read this thread by now.
    Yeah, the silent from them speaks volumes.

    However, since there are these arguments of fraud/not-fraud when doing the chargeback being discussed here, even if the OP pays the 50 Euro, Baltic can't be sure if he is going to chargeback or not.
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