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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    Boston
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    1,568
    From what I've understood from your previous thread and your update in this one, it looks like you've exhausted all your means to getting your IP issue resolved with your current provider. It's time to move on and give another provider a try. I certainly wouldn't just "deal with it"...
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  2. #27
    Thanks for all your replies.

    This is the reason why this hotmail issue is so important to me: We will soon be going live with our free classifieds site in the Dominican Republic, which as you may know, is one of the poorest countries in Latin America with a very high unemployment rate. People don't have jobs and much less are they going to have private domain names. Understandably, for many, the only options are free email providers.

    I understand that the provider has done everything possible, but my question is: if I end up moving to another provider, how can I be guaranteed that this isn't going to happen over there also? That's my main concern. If I'll have this issue with any provider, then I'd rather stay with my current one and work with them.

    For me and anyone else starting a new email-intensive business, the issue would be resolved if somebody could tell me, without doubt, if an email from a clean IP will be marked as spam. From what I've seen, there's no clear-cut answer for that. So what's the point of moving to another provider?

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by srfreeman View Post
    The OP's issue has to do with only the fact that emails are being sent to junk folders of free email providers.

    Discussion of free email providers would seem to be on topic.
    I think the point is being missed. The discussion is actually about reputation of IPs - nothing more..

    The fact that free email providers ALSO use IP reputation to decide how to filter email means nothing really - other then the fact that in this particular case, the original posters issue is with hotmail. I 10000% assure you that all major ISPs and many corporate mail environments use the exact same rules as hotmail does in this case - hence, the issue is nothing to do with free email services. Eitherway, suggesting companies do not work with or deal with free ISPs is no a viable solution. Having said this, users of free email services or those services utilizing their own end user reporting filtering protocol need to be made aware of the potential ramifications of doing so.
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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by vmhatup View Post

    I understand that the provider has done everything possible, but my question is: if I end up moving to another provider, how can I be guaranteed that this isn't going to happen over there also? That's my main concern. If I'll have this issue with any provider, then I'd rather stay with my current one and work with them.
    moving to a new provider will absolutely not ensure that this problem will go away. it may in fact end up being worse. There is also the possibility this has nothing to do with the IP or its reputation

    For me and anyone else starting a new email-intensive business, the issue would be resolved if somebody could tell me, without doubt, if an email from a clean IP will be marked as spam. From what I've seen, there's no clear-cut answer for that. So what's the point of moving to another provider?
    here is the issue with EVERY mail service that utilizes end user reporting as a mechanism of determining which mail is spam and which is not. End users will often simply report an email as spam vs unsubscribing to a legitimate mailing they have subscribed to. This is not just a hotmail issue, many large ISPs utilize a similar system (ie comcast, at&t, aol, etc). It is not a reasonable solution to simply not do business with these people. However, with this sort of filtering in place, where end users directly control where your mail ends up (ie inbox or spam bin) - then you can easily end up in spam bins, even with clean IPs, even with IPs with excellent reputations and even if you arent sending a single spam message out. This is simply how end user reporting based spam filtering works. Your only real options are to have unsubscribe links clearly and prominently displayed at the TOP of the message - and/or a very clear message about why the user is receiving the email and how to stop receiving it. After that, you can also ask your users to specifically flag the email as "good" or "not spam" - and especially if it ends up in their spam bins. Lastly, I would spend some time and get on providers safe sender lists and ensure you are enlisted in a reporting feedback loop if they have one available

    hope this helps..
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  5. #30
    Thanks for your reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    moving to a new provider will absolutely not ensure that this problem will go away. it may in fact end up being worse. There is also the possibility this has nothing to do with the IP or its reputation
    What is this other possibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    here is the issue with EVERY mail service that utilizes end user reporting as a mechanism of determining which mail is spam and which is not. End users will often simply report an email as spam vs unsubscribing to a legitimate mailing they have subscribed to. This is not just a hotmail issue, many large ISPs utilize a similar system (ie comcast, at&t, aol, etc). It is not a reasonable solution to simply not do business with these people. However, with this sort of filtering in place, where end users directly control where your mail ends up (ie inbox or spam bin) - then you can easily end up in spam bins, even with clean IPs, even with IPs with excellent reputations and even if you arent sending a single spam message out. This is simply how end user reporting based spam filtering works. Your only real options are to have unsubscribe links clearly and prominently displayed at the TOP of the message - and/or a very clear message about why the user is receiving the email and how to stop receiving it. After that, you can also ask your users to specifically flag the email as "good" or "not spam" - and especially if it ends up in their spam bins. Lastly, I would spend some time and get on providers safe sender lists and ensure you are enlisted in a reporting feedback loop if they have one available

    hope this helps..
    I understand your point: I can mark an email as JUNK by clicking on the 'Junk' button. I have no problem with that.

    But the first email sent with this ip from MY Outlook to MY hotmail account is being marked as spam. If the IP is indeed clean (as the provider states), then there are only two reasons for this: IPs that have never been used for email will be marked as spam, or the IP has negative reputation and I don't know about it. At this point in time, those are the only two reasons.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by vmhatup View Post
    Thanks for your reply.

    What is this other possibility?

    I understand your point: I can mark an email as JUNK by clicking on the 'Junk' button. I have no problem with that.

    But the first email sent with this ip from MY Outlook to MY hotmail account is being marked as spam. If the IP is indeed clean (as the provider states), then there are only two reasons for this: IPs that have never been used for email will be marked as spam, or the IP has negative reputation and I don't know about it. At this point in time, those are the only two reasons.
    you may be right, but, it may not be that simple. your domain may be flagged and the IP it is associated with may not matter (user reporting systems have started using this to avoid spammers - not saying you - from simply changing IPs)

    eitherway, just do a quick check on your IP is on any major blacklists

    http://www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx

    if it is, then the IP may be "dirty" and you have some work to do to clean it up

    if its not on any serious RBLs - then its either reputation based, user reporting or both

    hope this helps...
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  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by srfreeman View Post
    Businesses today would certainly want to communicate using a return address that identifies their company. Just like a snail mail address that resolves to a mailbox provider in a strip-mall raises suspicion, so does a free email address.

    If you need the $5 from the free email user that can't fess up to who and where they really are, you are welcome to it. Bottom feeding is not my style, nor is it the impression I want to leave of my business.
    I wasn't going to address this but, alas, I have to.

    Do you have any idea what the average monthly salary over there is? Do you know how much a medical doctor makes over there? Do you know how much it costs to purchase and host a domain over there? Your statement only tells me that you don't.

    And regardless of that, I own a domain, and my main email account is my yahoo account. I know tons of professionals that use hotmail, yahoo, or gmail. You'd be surprised how many doctorjones(at)hotmail.coms exist.

    So if I'm a bottom feeder because I won't ignore people using free email accounts, then so be it. I'm a bottom-feeder.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    544
    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    I think the point is being missed. The discussion is actually about reputation of IPs - nothing more..

    The fact that free email providers ALSO use IP reputation to decide how to filter email means nothing really - other then the fact that in this particular case, the original posters issue is with hotmail. I 10000% assure you that all major ISPs and many corporate mail environments use the exact same rules as hotmail does in this case - hence, the issue is nothing to do with free email services. Eitherway, suggesting companies do not work with or deal with free ISPs is no a viable solution. Having said this, users of free email services or those services utilizing their own end user reporting filtering protocol need to be made aware of the potential ramifications of doing so.
    No, the point is not missed, the entire discussion from the OP has pointed only to free email providers blocking his email and how he feels that he has been done wrong in some way.

    My decision to not do business with those that use free email addresses exclusively was inserted to point out problems that I have had with this group of users. I also note that experience shows that it will be near impossible to stay out of the junk folder of the free email systems (having nothing to do with IP reputation), concern with this would appear futile and IP reputation will shortly be ruined simply by dealing with these users regardless of the status in the beginning.

    The OP appears to be asking for clean clothes so he can go roll in the mud. What is the point? The service provider has been more than generous, yet the OP seems to want to make them out the bad guy - wrong in my estimation.

    The OP seems to have a need to deal with these users, IP reputation is really one of the smallest issues he should be concerned with. Though it has created a lively discussion, little has been noted about this type of usage being a prime reason there are so many tainted IP addresses.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    544
    Quote Originally Posted by vmhatup View Post
    I wasn't going to address this but, alas, I have to.

    Do you have any idea what the average monthly salary over there is? Do you know how much a medical doctor makes over there? Do you know how much it costs to purchase and host a domain over there? Your statement only tells me that you don't.

    And regardless of that, I own a domain, and my main email account is my yahoo account. I know tons of professionals that use hotmail, yahoo, or gmail. You'd be surprised how many doctorjones(at)hotmail.coms exist.

    So if I'm a bottom feeder because I won't ignore people using free email accounts, then so be it. I'm a bottom-feeder.
    You really need to notice that professional misuse of these services and general lack of care has prompted government involvement and creation of many compliance standards. I am not the only one who considers it wrong.

    I am sadly aware of the number of professionals continuing to use these services, disregarding the consequences or compliance. The number of times I have heard something like "I can send the patient information using hotmail, it is just so convenient" matches very closely with the number of times I have heard something like "My identity was stolen online, dang that Internet".

    It seems that concern with the plight of those "over there" may be laudable but IP reputation should be very low on the importance scale when trying to improve their lot.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by srfreeman View Post
    No, the point is not missed, the entire discussion from the OP has pointed only to free email providers blocking his email and how he feels that he has been done wrong in some way.

    My decision to not do business with those that use free email addresses exclusively was inserted to point out problems that I have had with this group of users. I also note that experience shows that it will be near impossible to stay out of the junk folder of the free email systems (having nothing to do with IP reputation), concern with this would appear futile and IP reputation will shortly be ruined simply by dealing with these users regardless of the status in the beginning.

    The OP appears to be asking for clean clothes so he can go roll in the mud. What is the point? The service provider has been more than generous, yet the OP seems to want to make them out the bad guy - wrong in my estimation.

    The OP seems to have a need to deal with these users, IP reputation is really one of the smallest issues he should be concerned with. Though it has created a lively discussion, little has been noted about this type of usage being a prime reason there are so many tainted IP addresses.
    Honestly, you need to relax. If you read my posts, you will see that I agree - the poster needs to understand what is going on here and why. To outright determine which people you will do business with based on their specific @email.com may work for you, but, it is not a reasonable strategy for the majority of people and businesses. There is a happy medium - and yes, end of the day, people using free email addresses or those that come bundled with ISP services need to understand the limitations they face. But, we are speaking millions and millions and millions of legitimate users. You cannot just dismiss them. instead, this needs to be turned around on the free email providers and on the large ISPs - and that can only be accomplished by educating people. Refusing to do business with them simply makes you look like a fool and honestly, it doesnt help anything, as it validates the very same practices you are trying to get rid of.

    Just my $0.02

    cheers
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  11. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    544
    Andrew;

    I am very relaxed. You seem to think I have something against someone, not the case at all.

    My business has to do with helping companies / professionals with large IT installations and requirements that include use of the Internet. Simply put, anyone in this market that insists on using only a free email address to communicate, raises a red flag.

    I have already stated that I have a use for free email addresses and that my usage and that of many acquaintances will certainly result in the blacklisting of domains and IPs of those who insist on trying to communicate with the free emails used. I get the feeling that many of the millions of users you speak of do the same - unsubscribe links have proven to be at least ineffective and at worst dangerous.

    I am not dismissing anyone, trying to help anything, trying to turn anything around, trying to educate anyone or get rid of any practices. I just point out that given current practice, IP reputation and doing business with free email addresses are like oil and water.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    5,105
    srfreeman,

    I am missing what you are saying about free emails. The point of them is that they are free right? For personal use.

    Say you work for a company and have a company email. Anything not related to company business SHOULDN'T be sent over company email since that belongs to the company and can be audited by the comapny right? Plus using company resources is bad so where should they conduct all the personal business they need to?

    Saying you can't accept free emails for many things is a huge mistake if your market is the general public not businesses.

    While I agree with your view that professionals like so many doctors and lawyers I know shouldn't be using free emails we at the same time advise them to move to hosted email which includes Google mail/Yahoo business email which is gmail and yahoo so I think the lines are blurred a bit.
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  13. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    938
    To the OP, since this is currently an hotmail issue, try this link

    http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx

    To note are the Sender IDs and rDNS. They also don't have a whitelist themselves but are partnered with ReturnPath so even if you're technically passing, the domain rep might not be high enough. In which case, you might have to consider going through the 'Email Certification Program'.

    Also check out the 'Junk Email Reporting Program'. That might give you a bit more feedback on why its being flagged as junk through their servers.

    http://mail.live.com/mail/services.aspx

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    544
    Coolraul;
    I am missing what you are saying about free emails. The point of them is that they are free right? For personal use.
    I have said that I choose not to do business with those that use free email addresses exclusively and that my personal free email accounts are setup in such a way that all messages are routed to the junk folder and reported as junk mail.

    It seems that requiring identifiable, domain based email addresses is an acceptable practice. Have you attempted to purchase an SSL certificate using only a free email address?

    It seems that reporting unwanted messages a junk mail has become a general practice since unsubscribe links have proven to be at least ineffective and at worst dangerous.
    Say you work for a company and have a company email. Anything not related to company business SHOULDN'T be sent over company email since that belongs to the company and can be audited by the comapny right? Plus using company resources is bad so where should they conduct all the personal business they need to?
    This is probably not the place to discuss employee activity but I would say that any attempt to circumvent the employer's security or compliance systems would seem to be bad.
    Saying you can't accept free emails for many things is a huge mistake if your market is the general public not businesses.
    My market is not the general public.
    While I agree with your view that professionals like so many doctors and lawyers I know shouldn't be using free emails we at the same time advise them to move to hosted email which includes Google mail/Yahoo business email which is gmail and yahoo so I think the lines are blurred a bit.
    Advising professionals to use anything less than compliant email systems, with signed provider agreements in place, for conducting their business is just wrong. Lines are very clearly drawn not blurred a bit.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    5,105
    Sorry I know this is derailing it but are you saying Google mail for business is not compliant? I mean the infrastructure as the only difference between it and gmail is the domain name.

    The OP's market is the general public so not an issue there.

    Every time I am doing business with a new company I use my gmail address as I don't want them looking up my name and calling until I have a chance to determine if I want to do business with them.

    I have even had a vendor just show up "he was passing by" and decided to stop in and drop off a pen and grab a coffee ... WTF!!??

    Please don't take this as an attack. I know you are knowledgeable and just trying to understand your take on this. My wife likes to remind me that I am not infallible (she is probably wrong but on the off chance.....)


  16. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    544
    Coolraul;

    No, I do not consider it an attack but then I do not care if it is.

    I'm sorry you did not like the previous answers to your questions, they are free. Paid answers would be more detailed but they come with an invoice and collection process.

    Please understand that all comments are given in the spirit of "Here is what happened to me when I touched that stove you are reaching for."

    Free information, worth every penny you paid for it. Like it, use it. Don't like it, don't use it. Please test any free information before using it in any production environment.

  17. #42
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
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    5,105
    Quote Originally Posted by srfreeman View Post
    Coolraul;

    No, I do not consider it an attack but then I do not care if it is.

    I'm sorry you did not like the previous answers to your questions, they are free. Paid answers would be more detailed but they come with an invoice and collection process.

    Please understand that all comments are given in the spirit of "Here is what happened to me when I touched that stove you are reaching for."

    Free information, worth every penny you paid for it. Like it, use it. Don't like it, don't use it. Please test any free information before using it in any production environment.
    Ok thank you. I liked your answers I just know you were wrong so feel to withdraw when outgunned. It is a good strategy in any skirmish. Anyway thanks for the input. Lively discussions are good for the soul.

  18. #43
    maybe I missed this are you getting a certain error or bounce back that tells you it is spam? or are you going off what the recipient told you? reason I ask is many virus protections / mail scanners or even just email clients that do not recognize the domain or the dns will mark as spam untill the reciver marks it as "safe" sorry just looking at the simple before getting complex
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