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  1. #1

    Knownhost's recent downtimes ..

    I have been using KH for some months now. And in past few weeks I have had this second time due to their network wide DDOS. This was the response from KH on another thread on WHT:

    Quote Originally Posted by KnownHost View Post
    15 minutes of downtime to a DDOS. We acted fast as usual and it was taken care of. Uptime is a core focus of ours and this is an example of us being on top of things. Sorry for any inconveniences.
    Now I know KH advocates will say that I shouldn't blame a provider for DDOS. But considering DDOS is a universal problem and affects all hosts, at least I expect better from a top end provider whom I am paying 8x the amount I am paying to my budget provider and still getting larger resources from the latter and zero downtime in past 250 days of my use. I have used another low end VPS too for almost 3 years in past and had just a total of 10-12 minutes of total downtime in those years. I have used the premium unmanaged VPS provider Linode too with zero downtime in my 1 yr use (so is that mean they don't get DDOS attacks?). What is the use of "Managed" and fast support when your together with your providers sites are getting plagued by issues beyond their control.

    Though they are always courageous and acknowledge the issues if any but the thing is I don't expect such frequent issues at this price level. The only reason I am using KH and not other providers like Linode or ultra cheaper ones I have had good experience with is that KH provides Plesk at affordable rates and is supposed to be reliable due to numerous +ve reviews on WHT.
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  2. #2
    15 minutes! Whatever are you going to do?!
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  3. #3
    This is the 2nd, smaller one in past sometime. I have been using them for 3-4 months only so can't say what the situation has been previous to this. Please see it in light of my other experiences with non-premium providers. They have proved themselves to me better in terms of uptime than KH. I care for even 1 min if I am paying above a threshold. And I am paying way above that to KH as per my parameters.
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  4. #4
    I am having a tough time even responding to this. 15 minutes downtime due to DDOS? Heck, that is amazing. I hope my host can do as well should the need arise.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cape Dave View Post
    I am having a tough time even responding to this. 15 minutes downtime due to DDOS? Heck, that is amazing. I hope my host can do as well should the need arise.
    There is no need to respond if you are happy with 15-30 mins downtimes every month or so

    I am not.
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  6. #6
    Well, I would rather have that than 12-24 hour outages once in awhile
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Cape Dave View Post
    Well, I would rather have that than 12-24 hour outages once in awhile
    I would say I have been quite careful (and intelligent) in my choice of providers and never had such a fate. May be I am a spoilt brat thus to me a 15-30 min downtime does not look very good (at least on a costly provider like KH).
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  8. #8
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    15 minutes of downtime are unfortunate and unpleasant to have if you are using the VPS for a production website and every minute of downtime is costing you money. Unfortunately downtime does happen sometimes, for various reasons = noone is immune to it (even paypal had downtimes, and they sure have a pretty good budget for everything). Still, does knownhost offer an uptime guarantee? If yes - what is it? 100% ? 99.9 % ? with 15 minutes of downtime for a month you are still within 99.9% uptime.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    This is the 2nd, smaller one in past sometime. I have been using them for 3-4 months only so can't say what the situation has been previous to this. Please see it in light of my other experiences with non-premium providers. They have proved themselves to me better in terms of uptime than KH. I care for even 1 min if I am paying above a threshold. And I am paying way above that to KH as per my parameters.
    To be honest, 15 minute of downtime every few months is excellent.

    99.99% uptime allows for something like 20 minutes of downtime per month.

    There are some horror stories of VPS servers being down for a month. That's on the extreme side of course.

    Count yourself lucky that you have chosen some excellent providers.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    There is no need to respond if you are happy with 15-30 mins downtimes every month or so

    I am not.
    Every month? C'mon how long have you been on KH this one month? I haven't had any downtime but recently this month due to some DDOS attack (which can happen to ANY host, premium/ non-premium) and they rectified the DDOS in a very short period which was amazing.

    IF you so annoyed by downtime by a DDOS (15 minutes ) and your business is VERY important you should consider investing in a dedicated box with DDOS protection. But be warned DDOS protection is "not" cheap you will end up paying thousands of USD for a server which maybe less powerful than the one you on currently.
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  11. #11
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    Colo4 have had a couple DDoS attacks over the last couple months but they are extremely quick at mitigating the problem.

    I believe they have also been changing their network from a Cisco to Juniper one as well?
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  12. #12
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    It's only recently there's been a couple of instances of DDoS attacks at KH....the previous 15 months I've been with them I haven't experienced anything.

    But look around.....everybody is getting hit with them, that's all we seem to be hearing.

    And TBH, only 15 minutes of downtime due to a 10Gbit DDoS attack is one hell of an achievement.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by wat3v3r View Post
    Every month? C'mon how long have you been on KH this one month? I haven't had any downtime but recently this month due to some DDOS attack (which can happen to ANY host, premium/ non-premium) and they rectified the DDOS in a very short period which was amazing.

    IF you so annoyed by downtime by a DDOS (15 minutes ) and your business is VERY important you should consider investing in a dedicated box with DDOS protection. But be warned DDOS protection is "not" cheap you will end up paying thousands of USD for a server which maybe less powerful than the one you on currently.
    If you had read the thread, I did mention that its based on my 3-4 month of experience on KH. I have no idea how it was previous to this.

    My uptime sensitive sites are still on $5-$6 VPSes (might sound bizarre to those who believe only $$$$ can bring quality. smart choices n efficient programming > $$$$). I use KH only because one of my client needs Plesk and my all time favorite budget providers don't have that option because they are either OpenVZ or Xen and not Virtuazzo. So wat3v3r, thanks for your suggestion. My sites and services don't attract DDOS so why would I want to invest in DDOS protection? I will rather choose a provider who has lesser chance of getting attacked. So I have been lucky, spending much less and yet getting industry's best uptimes as I mentioned in my OP.

    As far as DDOS is concerned, I feel the more popular hosts have higher tendency to get DDOSed so in other words they are just a victim of their own success. Yes they are very pro-active about sorting out the issues as they happen (but mustn't they be? they charge a hefty premium for this after all).
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    If you had read the thread, I did mention that its based on my 3-4 month of experience on KH. I have no idea how it was previous to this.

    My uptime sensitive sites are still on $5-$6 VPSes (might sound bizarre to those who believe only $$$$ can bring quality. smart choices n efficient programming > $$$$). I use KH only because one of my client needs Plesk and my all time favorite budget providers don't have that option because they are either OpenVZ or Xen and not Virtuazzo. So wat3v3r, thanks for your suggestion. My sites and services don't attract DDOS so why would I want to invest in DDOS protection? I will rather choose a provider who has lesser chance of getting attacked. So I have been lucky, spending much less and yet getting industry's best uptimes as I mentioned in my OP.

    As far as DDOS is concerned, I feel the more popular hosts have higher tendency to get DDOSed so in other words they are just a victim of their own success. Yes they are very pro-active about sorting out the issues as they happen (but mustn't they be? they charge a hefty premium for this after all).
    I been with them for almost an year now? And leaving the downtime this month, we had NO downtime. So i dunno how you can presume they have downtimes for every month? ( My site is monitored by pingdom so i'm pretty certain there were no downtimes leaving this month).

    You cannot really compare $5-6 VPS's to a managed VPS (now if you use management or not is a different matter)

    Also, as far as i recall the DDOS which bought my site down for a brief period of time was not even targeting any of the KH servers.

    Umm you are comparing cheap un-managed hosts to a managed host? management does cost more so it will more expensive. Can you please name this cheap VPS host you use for $7 which has no downtimes? I would like to check this out If indeed there is a provider which charges $7/month and give a VPS as powerful as KH with NO downtimes. I'm buying a few right now.
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  15. #15
    Though its included, I am not using their management part. I wrote totally based on my uptime experience with this premium provider. VPS performance etc has been pretty good so far. I know management costs more and that is why they are more expensive. But what is there to manage inside the VPS when the network itself is down :-)

    The 3 budget hosts I have been using shall remain unnamed here :-) don't want to stray away from the topic and also for my own selfish interest don't want to make them popular and in demand :-) 2 of them don't ever advertise of WHT, LEB etc
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    Though its included, I am not using their management part. I wrote totally based on my uptime experience with this premium provider. VPS performance etc has been pretty good so far. I know management costs more and that is why they are more expensive. But what is there to manage inside the VPS when the network itself is down :-)

    The 3 budget hosts I have been using shall remain unnamed here :-) don't want to stray away from the topic and also for my own selfish interest don't want to make them popular and in demand :-) 2 of them don't ever advertise of WHT, LEB etc
    Why are you talking like the n/w is down for verrry long periods and like every other day ? That's the only thing that is ticking me off :p
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by wat3v3r View Post
    Why are you talking like the n/w is down for verrry long periods and like every other day ? That's the only thing that is ticking me off :p
    I think you have some reading issues. No where I am saying that they are down for long periods or every other day. But when you have 2 VPSes. One costs you more than $65 and experiences downtime (although only 15-30 mins) in 2 months of its 3 month use and other which costs just $5.45 without a hiccup in 270 days of its use, what would you infer from that?
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    I think you have some reading issues. No where I am saying that they are down for long periods or every other day. But when you have 2 VPSes. One costs you more than $65 and experiences downtime (although only 15-30 mins) in 2 months of its 3 month use and other which costs just $5.45 without a hiccup in 270 days of its use, what would you infer from that?
    ...reading issues... Okay you first whined about the downtime. If i'm right you been whining about downtime for a few minutes by 10gbps DDOS and how you are paying $65 and you expect it to be top-notch?

    In 3 months just exactly how many HOURS of downtime did you have? Care to elaborate? Also please verify that this $5.45 VPS is of same specs as the VPS you have for $65.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by wat3v3r View Post
    ...reading issues... Okay you first whined about the downtime. If i'm right you been whining about downtime for a few minutes by 10gbps DDOS and how you are paying $65 and you expect it to be top-notch?

    In 3 months just exactly how many HOURS of downtime did you have? Care to elaborate? Also please verify that this $5.45 VPS is of same specs as the VPS you have for $65.
    If you are someone of those types who are willing to spend $65 for a VPS w/o expecting it to be top-notch, there isn't much left to argue here with you. I keep high expectations even from services who are sub $10. I am not someone who would say that dear KH you made my day because you installed wordpress for me within 5 mins of posting a ticket and I owe you much more than what you are charging.

    In 3 months I had 45 mins+ downtime compared to zero with the other cheaper services I am using for almost a year. Though this was meant to be related to network uptime only and not specs or server performance (which I already accepted is quite good), its obvious that for $5.45 I am having only 1/3rd or 1/4th of those resources. So what are you trying to say? That for $65 KH will give you good server performance, fast support, generous specs but NOT that supreme network uptime?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    If you are someone of those types who are willing to spend $65 for a VPS w/o expecting it to be top-notch, there isn't much left to argue here with you. I keep high expectations even from services who are sub $10. I am not someone who would say that dear KH you made my day because you installed wordpress for me within 5 mins of posting a ticket and I owe you much more than what you are charging.

    In 3 months I had 45 mins+ downtime compared to zero with the other cheaper services I am using for almost a year. Though this was meant to be related to network uptime only and not specs or server performance (which I already accepted is quite good), its obvious that for $5.45 I am having only 1/3rd or 1/4th of those resources. So what are you trying to say? That for $65 KH will give you good server performance, fast support, generous specs but NOT that supreme network uptime?
    Did you see me say Knownhost is not top-notch? ..Reading Problem? KH has a high rep here for a reason and i'm sure most of the users here would agree. I never implied that they are awesome for installing s/w.. seriously where did you read that? What i like about KH

    - Powerful VPS's
    - Good Network
    - Awesome Uptime stats
    - Brilliant support

    Okay me and you both are hosted on KH, i got total of 45mins of downtime in ONE year. 30 mins downtime was due to a router of their's being mis-configured by the mere 10gbps DDOS (which was not even targeting their n/w, but it bought problems to the whole DC). They got it back up in 30 mins and you could apply to get some credit for downtime if you wished to.
    Last edited by wat3v3r; 05-22-2011 at 01:08 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    Now I know KH advocates will say that I shouldn't blame a provider for DDOS. But considering DDOS is a universal problem and affects all hosts, at least I expect better from a top end provider whom I am paying 8x the amount I am paying to my budget provider and still getting larger resources from the latter and zero downtime in past 250 days of my use.
    Do you understand what a DDOS is? Tell me, how can you expect better from a top end provider? What exactly? A DDOS-protected network? Did they advertise they have a DDOS-protected network?

    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    I have used another low end VPS too for almost 3 years in past and had just a total of 10-12 minutes of total downtime in those years. I have used the premium unmanaged VPS provider Linode too with zero downtime in my 1 yr use (so is that mean they don't get DDOS attacks?).
    No one can predict DDOS attacks. Should this low-end VPS of yours get hit with one, how do you know they'll be able to get you back online within minutes versus hours? Of course this depends on the size of the attack, but your perspective would probably change then. Just because you've had smooth sailing all this time, doesn't mean it won't come to a crashing halt tomorrow.

    If you read Linode's status page going back last year, they do get hit with DDOS attacks and even power issues, which are all beyond their control. If it so happens that you signed up with Linode afterwards and wasn't affected, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that you can look the other way.

    Fact is, it happens to every provider and it's unfortunate that KH got hit with DDOS attacks so soon after you signed up. But understand that a DDOS attack causing network issues is by no means any indication of the quality of a provider and their network. I truly do not get what you're complaining about.
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  22. #22
    The last thing I need on WHT is someone to teach me what DDOS is. I know what it is. Okay because you do not understand what I am complaining about, let me state it in simple words: I am not liking the fact my top-end provider (or this provider's provider) has seemingly higher probably of getting DDOS attacks than the low end ones I am using. Got it now?

    I might be wrong because I have been on KH for 3 months only. Linode and others do get hit too but that affects only the performance and speed of network AFAIK. Not that all VPSes on that location and Linode's own sites stops responding when that happens.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    I am not liking the fact my top-end provider (or this provider's provider) has seemingly higher probably of getting DDOS attacks than the low end ones I am using. Got it now?
    And how did you assume KH is prone to DDOS attacks?? Did you read what i wrote in my last post?? The last big DDOS was not even targeting their network. There are usually NO downtime due to DDOS. Did you confirm with KH the last few downtime you got were due to DDOS or did you just assume so?? They usually put network issues on their forum and i rarely see DDOS's being reported at all.
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  24. #24
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    techmanu has a point. But it's his experience ( budget host better uptime than Knownhost ) that makes him me feel this way. Two things should be considered: 1.Knownhost offers you a VPS with more power ( yes I know you pay much more ) 2. their response was good - 15 minutes to resolve the ddos ( although you are right that their network should be able to absorb better the amount of traffic generated by the attack and not go offline just like that).

    At the end it's always your choice and you have your way of judging things. If you consider that Knowhost does not deserve the money you pay, then make another choice. Personally I'd like to thank you for your report/experience. It's good to know even these "minor" issues.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    If you had read the thread, I did mention that its based on my 3-4 month of experience on KH. I have no idea how it was previous to this.

    My uptime sensitive sites are still on $5-$6 VPSes (might sound bizarre to those who believe only $$$$ can bring quality. smart choices n efficient programming > $$$$). I use KH only because one of my client needs Plesk and my all time favorite budget providers don't have that option because they are either OpenVZ or Xen and not Virtuazzo. So wat3v3r, thanks for your suggestion. My sites and services don't attract DDOS so why would I want to invest in DDOS protection? I will rather choose a provider who has lesser chance of getting attacked. So I have been lucky, spending much less and yet getting industry's best uptimes as I mentioned in my OP.

    As far as DDOS is concerned, I feel the more popular hosts have higher tendency to get DDOSed so in other words they are just a victim of their own success. Yes they are very pro-active about sorting out the issues as they happen (but mustn't they be? they charge a hefty premium for this after all).
    I've thought about this a day or two, and if your that sensitive to downtime, LVS would be a perfect solution.

    I do see and agree with your logic in host selection. At least I think I see your goal is to avoid the heard whenever possible, spending time to find more obscure or less popular hosts that have excellent quality. It's what more should really do, but following the heard is much easier.
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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    The 3 budget hosts I have been using shall remain unnamed here :-) don't want to stray away from the topic and also for my own selfish interest don't want to make them popular and in demand :-) 2 of them don't ever advertise of WHT, LEB etc
    Well this is crazy if you can't give credit to the ones who actually did well & was happy to blame KnownHost for just a minor downtime!!
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by techmanu View Post
    I expect better from a top end provider whom I am paying 8x the amount I am paying to my budget provider and still getting larger resources from the latter and zero downtime in past 250 days of my use.
    And the speed is most excellent too? Page loading times are amazing? 15 minutes to reroute a DDOS is pretty good service.
    Hosting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.
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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by wat3v3r View Post
    And how did you assume KH is prone to DDOS attacks?? Did you read what i wrote in my last post?? The last big DDOS was not even targeting their network. There are usually NO downtime due to DDOS. Did you confirm with KH the last few downtime you got were due to DDOS or did you just assume so?? They usually put network issues on their forum and i rarely see DDOS's being reported at all.
    I also wrote that the provider's provider (Knownhost's DC) could be prone to DDOS here. You comfortably skipped reading it. Yes the downtimes I experienced were due to DDOS at their DC. And not only my VPS along with other VPSes in that location were TOTALLY inaccessible, KH's own site, support portal etc went down too when that happened. For some reason KH is hiding older posts on their forums (I am viewing as guest). But these are the links refereing to recent DDOS based downtimes:

    http://forums.knownhost.com/showthread.php?p=13966
    http://forums.knownhost.com/showthread.php?t=2989


    Quote Originally Posted by MBGear View Post
    2. their response was good - 15 minutes to resolve the ddos ( although you are right that their network should be able to absorb better the amount of traffic generated by the attack and not go offline just like that).

    At the end it's always your choice and you have your way of judging things. If you consider that Knowhost does not deserve the money you pay, then make another choice. Personally I'd like to thank you for your report/experience. It's good to know even these "minor" issues.
    That is exactly what I wanted to say. Either the KH's location I am on doesn't have enough network capacity to absorb this or it is prone to so very big DDOSes which choke all its pipes in total and everything goes down.

    I don't have any other choice MBGear than to use KH because they are a Virtuazzo provider and give Plesk at affordable rates and are best rated amongst all premium providers. I cannot apply my experience with some budget hosts in this particular case as I need Plesk (unlimited) and no good low end provider has that option. So in the upper tier KH is the obvious choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by jawwad kalia View Post
    Well this is crazy if you can't give credit to the ones who actually did well & was happy to blame KnownHost for just a minor downtime!!
    You call it crazyness, I call it selfishness and a "smart" move from my side not to advertise those hosts (besides when they themselves don't advertise on WHT and work on some other business model, why should I?)
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  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker View Post
    And the speed is most excellent too? Page loading times are amazing? 15 minutes to reroute a DDOS is pretty good service.
    Yes. But that is not what this thread is about.
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  30. #30
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    Since this thread is about uptime/downtime I'd like to point out something, http://www.hyperspin.com/en/ranking....i=10&d=90&s=10 Uptime is a core focus of ours as a company along with high performance hosting and quality support. The DDOS was within the Colo4.com datacenter which is questionably one of the best datacenters you can find. Many good hosting companies colocate there along with us and if you've ever been there it's a great facility/network. It's unfortunate they had a major DDOS but this can happen anywhere at anytime so when it happens all you can do is act as fast as possible like we did and always do. We're not a perfect host but we're about as close to it you're going to find at our price point as we leverage decades of experience into the services we provide. Sorry for the 15 minute outage which sparked this thread.

    As for hiding something on our forum we're a professional business and don't hide anything. We do the opposite and make everything public including network issues and our uptime statistics. It's the default view which you can change the display options and it will show per the time range you select.
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  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by KnownHost View Post
    As for hiding something on our forum we're a professional business and don't hide anything. We do the opposite and make everything public including network issues and our uptime statistics. It's the default view which you can change the display options and it will show per the time range you select.
    I didn't fiddle with the forum much and was unsure why it wasn't showing old forums. Thanks for the information.

    Yes indeed its unfortunate that they faced this second DDOS in past 2 months taking everything down for a brief while again. I just hope it doesn't turn into a series of unfortunate events because I haven't known KH for much long.
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  32. #32
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    Did 15 minutes downtime cause you to lose thousands in advertising income or sales?
    Hosting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.
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  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker View Post
    Did 15 minutes downtime cause you to lose thousands in advertising income or sales?
    Should it cause you loss of thousands? Then only you will care about uptime/downtimes?
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  34. #34
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    If I lost thousands through pay per click ads because my site was so awesome, then yes - I would care. If my mom and pop T-shirt shop or blog was down for 15 minutes, or I couldn't access my minecraft server for 15 minutes, then no I wouldn't whine about it.
    Hosting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.
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  35. #35
    I've had several VPS' over the years, large companies, smaller "budget" companies, etc.

    My experience is that the larger companies are often more likely targets for large DDoS attacks. No statistics, just what I've personally experienced.

    That said, those larger companies are much more prepared to handle a DDoS attack and limit "downtime", whereas the budget VPS providers are 1-2 man shops most of the time and fixing the issues and getting the sites back up definitely is going to take them longer than 15 minutes.

    I'm glad you're loving your lesser known VPS providers, I have used a couple in the past and was extremely happy. The only real DDoS of significance I remember with them took my VPS down for several days, they just weren't as prepared or didn't have the staff to throw at correcting the problem as a larger company has...
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  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker View Post
    If I lost thousands through pay per click ads because my site was so awesome, then yes - I would care. If my mom and pop T-shirt shop or blog was down for 15 minutes, or I couldn't access my minecraft server for 15 minutes, then no I wouldn't whine about it.
    I will definitely whine if my most important customer, who wanted a Plesk VPS and whom I hosted on the most reliable provider I could find calls me in April and complains about downtime. After being calmed somehow he calls again in May and complains about downtime.

    Having said that, my tone in this post is definitely not whining. Its more like sharing my experiences with expensive and cheap hosts in a candid way.
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  37. #37
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    It's all about educating customers! I make it clear to them that there will possibly be occasional downtimes for short periods. That's a fact of life.

    If you believe, and therefore influence them to believe that we live in a perfect world where nothing ever malfunctions and where the sun always shines, plus there'll always going to be a queue of nubile young ladies queuing outside your door to give you blowjobs.....then you're going to be very disappointed!

    Things do go wrong! That's real life! The acid test of a provider's quality is their response and resolution when something does go wrong.
    And in this respect KnownHost are pretty much in a league of their own.
      0 Not allowed!

  38. #38
    Greetings,

    My website hosted with them has not seen any downtime. As of now I am happy with their service.

    Best Regards,
    Abhijit
      0 Not allowed!

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,219
    Quote Originally Posted by XTremo View Post
    that we live in a perfect world where nothing ever malfunctions and where the sun always shines, plus there'll always going to be a queue of nubile young ladies queuing outside your door to give you blowjobs.....then you're going to be very disappointed!
    What? Hey. Wait! It's not like that? Damn. You're kidding, right? Please say that you are kidding! I am waiting at the door since weeks and now you tell me that queue of young ladies will not appear? Right. I am disappointed now!
      0 Not allowed!

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,784
    Quote Originally Posted by XTremo View Post
    If you believe, and therefore influence them to believe that we live in a perfect world where nothing ever malfunctions and where the sun always shines, plus there'll always going to be a queue of nubile young ladies queuing outside your door to give you blowjobs.....then you're going to be very disappointed!

    Things do go wrong! That's real life!
    Always look at the Adam's Apple and feet.
    Hosting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.
      0 Not allowed!

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