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  1. #1

    Cloud providers: why omit CPU type?

    I have always been wondering: Why are cloud providers omitting CPU type? They basically sell 2Ghz, 2GB RAM, 2GB storage, not Xeon 2Ghz, 2GB RAM, 2GB storage.

    Also why isn't anyone also asking such question? Isnt it relevant? Is it because it is too new and people just dont understand how it works and thus doesn't care what kind of CPU they are buying?

    Someone once told me: it doesn't really matter to the client, but to the provider. If provider offers Celeron, it will be able to put much less accounts(vps/cloud) on it, so its rather a provider choices to save on space/optimization/etc.

    Ok, but since most of providers use Xen to provide cloud services, and since Xen doesnt allow RAM overselling, the above thinking is useless, right? Because if you have a Celeron with 2GB RAM and a Xeon with 2GB RAM, and let's say you offer a Cloud with 1GB RAM, it won't matter where you put, you will only be able to put 2 of this plan in either the celeron or Xeon, since both have same RAM amount.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    I think the main reason is the marketing spin on the term "cloud." At the end of the day no matter how you put your ad campaign together its still the same hardware everyone else is using and has been using for quite a while. You've probably seen this video by Oracle CEO Larry Ellison Why Larry Ellison hates Cloud computing and it sort of goes into the same thing you're getting at but with broader strokes likening "cloud" to "Internet" back in the day.

    A lot of customers are fixated on cloud and like you say don't have any idea about what it means or how it works, kinda like "managed services," a little different definition depending on who you ask.
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    First Xen does allow overselling of RAM.
    About the CPU - if they tell you a specific CPU then they would have to stick with that CPU forever? It is much better to just tell you some measure of productivity i.e. GHz in this case, though MIPS or FLOPS would be better. But i doubt many customers would understand MIPS/FLOPS, while everyone knows GHz.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by rds100 View Post
    First Xen does allow overselling of RAM.
    About the CPU - if they tell you a specific CPU then they would have to stick with that CPU forever? It is much better to just tell you some measure of productivity i.e. GHz in this case, though MIPS or FLOPS would be better. But i doubt many customers would understand MIPS/FLOPS, while everyone knows GHz.
    But I guess a 1ghz from a Xeon is much more productive than a 1ghz from Celeron, no? Cause if no one cares, why building a Xeon Farm when you can do with a 386 farm? (being extremist to exemplify)

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    Yes, 1 GHz on a modern Xeon would be better than 1GHz on some old Celeron, that is why i suggested using something more real, like MIPS. However noone who has to pay electricity bill would make a cloud out of Celerons Plus you can't put too much RAM on a Celeron system.
    Also saying "Xeon" doesn't mean much - an old generation Xeon is no match for the performance of a modern Xeon, even if both are at tha same frequency 2GHz.

  6. #6
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    IMO those who are cloud shopping aren't concerned with CPU...they have probably been taught by marketing hype that cloud will automatically scale to anything their app needs...
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    Quote Originally Posted by FADM View Post
    Also why isn't anyone also asking such question? Isnt it relevant?
    Generally, no, it's not relevant (assuming the provider is giving you *dedicated* resources). The physical hardware specification tends to only matter for the oversellers using software like OpenVZ for the virtualisation - where you're sharing the capabilities of the box.

    We quote 2Ghz CPU and almost always overdeliver (as servers are added to the clusters, they're usually faster cpus) - finding it better to promise the minimum the client can expect/use/rely-on
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    Quote Originally Posted by othellotech View Post
    Generally, no, it's not relevant (assuming the provider is giving you *dedicated* resources). The physical hardware specification tends to only matter for the oversellers using software like OpenVZ for the virtualisation - where you're sharing the capabilities of the box.

    We quote 2Ghz CPU and almost always overdeliver (as servers are added to the clusters, they're usually faster cpus) - finding it better to promise the minimum the client can expect/use/rely-on
    Exactly, most cloud providers that I have worked with sell dedicated resources and generally there is very little difference between brands that you would end up actually noticing.

    I would also expect that any reputable cloud provider would tell you what the underlying hardware is if you asked about.

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    The CPU type does matter a lot, frankly it matters more than the clock speed. Why? Modern processors with virtualization support and proper enhancements will function significantly faster than older ones of the same clock speed. We've easily seen 500% increases in speed, clock for clock, comparing one processor type to another.

    So "2GHz" or whatever really means nothing. As a consumer, you should be concerned about the processing technology used in your servers. Besides the processors themselves, the memory speed/cache/pci, etc are all going to vary in speed and quality based on the chipset used.

    Now to take it to another level, some providers such as Rackspace and ourselves do not list CPU specs publicly due to the fact there are several Clouds in production of various hardware specifications. A quick message to any company though should yield you exactly what you are looking for.

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    Most of the cloud host company's tend to put almost the same hardware on the hypervisors but not always will is like that for example, your vm cloud machine can be in an hypervisor with 2.4ghz but in the future can be in 3ghz or 2.0 ghz due to hardware upgrades or replacing an old one, your vm will just scale with the new hardware in the cloud.

  11. #11
    Also, the later xeons are -required- by clouds that offer windows, etc, as the virtualisation support on the chips is needed to run the OS, let alone do it efficiently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FADM View Post
    most of providers use Xen to provide cloud services, and since Xen doesnt allow RAM overselling
    False, You can still oversell using Xen but I highly wouldn't recommend it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by boskone View Post
    Also, the later xeons are -required- by clouds that offer windows, etc, as the virtualisation support on the chips is needed to run the OS, let alone do it efficiently.
    I would not use this as a basis for either AMD or Intel as VT processors were available all the way back in 2005, these are not modern processors at all.

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    We don't state specifics because we use a mix of Intel and Opteron. All are server grade processors still being produced, but as stated above the technology changes so quickly every new server installed is quicker than the last one. I tend to think most cloud providers are doing the same.
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    Most of them will tell you when/if you ask. But then again, not all will use the same equipments all the time. As kris1351 said, technology changes all the time. My cloud provider do tell me what servers they use and etc but in the end, there's just too much to keep up and I end up not wanting to know anymore.

    Eventually comes back to square 1. Not wanting to know what they use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    So "2GHz" or whatever really means nothing. As a consumer, you should be concerned about the processing technology used in your servers. Besides the processors themselves, the memory speed/cache/pci, etc are all going to vary in speed and quality based on the chipset used.

    Now to take it to another level, some providers such as Rackspace and ourselves do not list CPU specs publicly due to the fact there are several Clouds in production of various hardware specifications. A quick message to any company though should yield you exactly what you are looking for.
    Sadly, most cloud providers are really bad at transparency when it comes to CPU specs, including RackSpace. I've tried to get MIPS, Flops and a Passmark score for different server configurations without a result. Only response I could get: The cpu's are all different. But you'll get around 2-2.4GHZ. Hardly pressed, they advice their customers to open a test account and do the benchmarking themselves.

    Amazon are doing fairly well with their ECU (one ECU being equivalent of a 400 passmark score).

    The CloudHarmony initiative is a good place to start when comparing processing power across the spectrum, IMO.

  17. #17
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    Today I asked Rackspace what CPUs they used in their cloud, and they said "...we don't share a lot of the proprietary data on the specs...our techs may be able to share a little more on that once you are onboard"

    Sorry, but I don't buy the "proprietary" argument. This would be analogous to wanting to buy a new car but having the dealer refuse to tell you any specifications or let you look under the hood until you've agreed to buy the car.

    Perhaps some providers have outdated or inadequate infrastructure they are trying to hide.

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    They do, I've had customers recently come over that were on Kentsfield processors with them. haha

  19. #19
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    I'm not sure why people are omitting CPU types. We pretty much stay on the brink of technology. All of our Intel machines are Westmeres, All of our AMD Machines are the Magny-Cours. IF we can save 10w of power, we will do it. When Bulldozer comes out, We are more than likely going to be jumping on that boat.

    Thanks for bringing this up. It does make sense.
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    So really, all clouds are hosted on Athlon single cores, face it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuraid View Post
    Today I asked Rackspace what CPUs they used in their cloud, and they said "...we don't share a lot of the proprietary data on the specs...our techs may be able to share a little more on that once you are onboard"

    Sorry, but I don't buy the "proprietary" argument. This would be analogous to wanting to buy a new car but having the dealer refuse to tell you any specifications or let you look under the hood until you've agreed to buy the car.

    Perhaps some providers have outdated or inadequate infrastructure they are trying to hide.
    We don't publish the information on our site as it really depends on which cloud it is, and when it was built. Each zone of ours will have the same specs as all the HVs were built at the same time, but the specs will differ from zone to zone. Not wildly, but there's some differences.

    If you ask, we'll share info about the servers, but we won't be as open about our SAN units.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IGobyTerry View Post
    We don't publish the information on our site as it really depends on which cloud it is, and when it was built. Each zone of ours will have the same specs as all the HVs were built at the same time, but the specs will differ from zone to zone. Not wildly, but there's some differences.

    If you ask, we'll share info about the servers, but we won't be as open about our SAN units.
    So if I buy a cloud server with 0.6GHZ from VPS.NET how many ECU or passmarks does that correspond to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bergholt View Post
    So if I buy a cloud server with 0.6GHZ from VPS.NET how many ECU or passmarks does that correspond to?
    This is based off the software from passmark.com ...

    As a note, this is with 2 nodes, which would be 1.2 GHz. We require our Windows customers use at least 2 nodes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IGobyTerry View Post
    This is based off the software from passmark.com ...

    As a note, this is with 2 nodes, which would be 1.2 GHz. We require our Windows customers use at least 2 nodes.
    So one cpu-slot (0.6GHZ allocation) is roughly 230 Passmarks worth of processing power on VPS.NET?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bergholt View Post
    So one cpu-slot (0.6GHZ allocation) is roughly 230 Passmarks worth of processing power on VPS.NET?
    If you're going off the overall number, I guess it would be 280.

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