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  1. #1
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    * Whats the difference between OnApp and Applogic ?

    Hello

    I have seen hosts offering Cloud solutions, some are based on Applogic and some on OnApp.

    What are these ? Are there any advantages/disadvantages ?
    Last edited by Farrukh; 03-28-2011 at 08:54 AM.

  2. #2
    Hi

    I'm also interested in this two products. I'm not sure if you can easily compare them. Onapp is a easy way to create high available VPS accounts with a very nice gui. You need a SAN if you want to use the HA.

    With Applogic you are actually not just selling pure VPS but you sell a multi tier solution including Loadbalancer, webserver and databaseserver. With this solution you don't need any SAN, because the data is stored on the servers.

    I'm not using one of the systems yet, but that's what I got so far. The questions which I have about the Applogic are:

    - Is there also a gui for the enduser where he can manage his cluster?
    - What is the price for Applogic? (unfortunately no answer from sales yet)

    I think both solutions have their advantages but it depends what you would like to sell. OnAPP is more for the mass VPS market and Applogic you sell also the service of building the cluster.

    As mentioned, I'm not using this systems yet, therefore the information could be wrong. Would be nice if someone with more knowledge could tell us more.

    Mike

  3. #3
    The latest verion of onapp includes loadbalancers, firewalls, private networks and clusters, so thats not a difference.

    Two of the key differentials in my mind are

    1 - applogic uses distributed storage across your physical cluster to 'replicate' a SAN type service (think raid using whole server). Onapp uses 'real' SANs instead.

    2 - OnApp is built for the hosting industry, applogic is a generic application hosting platform.

    If you are a host, or in the business of providing hosting to end users to replace vps or dedicated server solutions, onapp is your best bet in my opinion.
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  4. #4
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    I've heard of more bad experiences with OnApp that good. We have a customer that has a 3Par SAN's Equipment with OnApp. Always has issues here and there. Last time I checked his setup there was no real way to segregate connects from one to another from another like Applogic. There was no way to drag and drop your templates, and connect them at will, and allow them to work every time. There also wasn't a way for you to migrate these VM's from one DC to another. or one grid to another, without having to resetup your load balancers, or firewalls, and private networks.

    I consider that a huge difference. Anybody can setup a VM with a load balancer on it. Thats not the hard part. The hard part is getting it right EVERY time. with little knowledge. My favorite Acronym " KISS " (Keep It Simple Stupid) Applogic Keeps It Simple.

    Thanks,

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by arisythila View Post
    I've heard of more bad experiences with OnApp that good. We have a customer that has a 3Par SAN's Equipment with OnApp. Always has issues here and there. Last time I checked his setup there was no real way to segregate connects from one to another from another like Applogic. There was no way to drag and drop your templates, and connect them at will, and allow them to work every time. There also wasn't a way for you to migrate these VM's from one DC to another. or one grid to another, without having to resetup your load balancers, or firewalls, and private networks.

    I consider that a huge difference. Anybody can setup a VM with a load balancer on it. Thats not the hard part. The hard part is getting it right EVERY time. with little knowledge. My favorite Acronym " KISS " (Keep It Simple Stupid) Applogic Keeps It Simple.

    Thanks,

    Hello Micheal

    Thanks for your contributing to this thread.

  6. #6
    Hi Michael,

    You're no doubt a happy Applogic user

    We've been running onapp now for nearly two years (before it was called onapp) and while not perfect, it nails any other option on price and the rate of feature release is staggering. Most other platforms are relatively stagnant in my experience.

    Not sure what you mean about deploying templates, etc, as onapp supports this now, and works 'every time' as you say - though moving machines between clouds is currently a manual process.

    I'm certainly not having a 'go' at applogic, just saying that, as a provider of hosting, I would recommend onapp over applogic (and I have done extensive reviews of applogic)
    ____________________________________________
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  7. #7
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    OnApp makes a nice turn-key Cloud hosting option for providers which is why most of them use it (it's easier as a business to offer OnApp). But when hosting enterprise applications and true Clusters OnApp just is not there.

    As I've said on the forums before a Cluster is not just a bunch of Servers (whether virtual or traditional) placed all over the Data Center that are able to talk to each other, but they can communicate with on a true private environment, share resources and storage (properly), prioritize and schedule the components of your Cluster precisely per the application requirements, and everything else Michael said.

    OnApp may be coming closer but AppLogic has some very big things around the corner for their v3 release...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by boskone View Post
    The latest verion of onapp includes loadbalancers, firewalls, private networks and clusters, so thats not a difference.

    Two of the key differentials in my mind are

    1 - applogic uses distributed storage across your physical cluster to 'replicate' a SAN type service (think raid using whole server). Onapp uses 'real' SANs instead.

    2 - OnApp is built for the hosting industry, applogic is a generic application hosting platform.

    If you are a host, or in the business of providing hosting to end users to replace vps or dedicated server solutions, onapp is your best bet in my opinion.
    Another HUGE difference is the time it takes to interconnect and build out a cluster. I can do it in a matter of MINUTES, from scratch, on AppLogic. No one else, including OnApp, comes close to that.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by boskone View Post
    Hi Michael,

    You're no doubt a happy Applogic user

    We've been running onapp now for nearly two years (before it was called onapp) and while not perfect, it nails any other option on price and the rate of feature release is staggering. Most other platforms are relatively stagnant in my experience.

    Not sure what you mean about deploying templates, etc, as onapp supports this now, and works 'every time' as you say - though moving machines between clouds is currently a manual process.

    I'm certainly not having a 'go' at applogic, just saying that, as a provider of hosting, I would recommend onapp over applogic (and I have done extensive reviews of applogic)
    Price wise, when considering ALL costs involved (SAN unit, licensing costs, etc.) AppLogic cost use less than 1/2 of what OnApp would for the same number for cores. And that was just the cost if you LEASED the licenses for Applogic. We opted to purchase our AppLogic licenses outright. We own them and just pay a low yearly fee for support and upgrades from AppLogic.

  10. #10
    As the OP wants the 'differences' between them, I'm not getting into a bashing argument one way or the other

    Suffice to say, it depends on the nature of what you want to deploy.

    If you're requirement is a replacement for VPS and dedicated servers, onapp is your best option as a hoster.

    If you want complex cluster features, approaching that of vcloud from VMware, them applogic is a good contender.

    As for costs, onapp is free for the first year, then 10 bucks a core. Hardware aside (which is a bit of a red herring) thats a lot less than the last time I got a price for applogic.
    ____________________________________________
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    Ranked by Cloudharmony.com as the fastest cloud in the world.

  11. #11
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    OnApp is not "free for a year", it's free for a year for up to 100 cores which isn't all that much. I couldn't even host 1 of my enterprise clients on it for free. Besides that it's $10 per core per month, PLUS $100 per Cloud per month.

  12. #12
    All I am doing is stating facts, not getting into arguments.

    Perhaps you could share applogic pricing on a like for like basis?
    ____________________________________________
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by boskone View Post
    As for costs, onapp is free for the first year, then 10 bucks a core. Hardware aside (which is a bit of a red herring) thats a lot less than the last time I got a price for applogic.
    $10 per core, on our current 16-core per server nodes. $160 per server for On-App. Multiply that by about 50 servers for 3 total "decent" sized clouds. $8000 per mo would be our cost for using OnApp.

    Let's just say cut that number in HALF, and then keep going south, and we are getting close to our monthly cost for 50 servers with AppLogic.

    All that, and NO EXPENSIVE SANS. Which I would need 3 of, at minimum, since I operate out of 3 datacenters.

    First year free is a gimmick, as any of us serious about this marketspace are here to stay (we have already been here 4 years).



    In the end, AppLogic costs us less than 1/3 what OnApp would to get similar, or better, performance. That is HUGE HUGE savings.

  14. #14
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    Facts are fine, just please be accurate in stating ALL of the facts. I have 1/4 rack and one customer that would surpass the free deal so it's just misleading to state it the way you did.

    I can't release my AppLogic pricing as I am a partner and we're under an NDA. What I can tell you is that it is cheaper than OnApp, not even getting into the hardware debate.

  15. #15
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    In terms of the end user, which cloud solution (Applogic or OnApp) would be advantageous for their hosting requirements ?

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    Depends on what you need it for. If you want a truly scalable product, that can spin up additional web servers as needed, deploy quickly, and be fully high-available, then AppLogic has no comparison.


    Heck, when we were at Cloud Expo a few months ago, VMWare was touting their product roadmap for the next 2 YEARS to come. The VMWare guys then came over to the 3Tera booth and saw AppLogic and almost creamed their shorts. EVERYTHING they were saying they were gonna do in the next 2 years, was already done, completed, and had been sold for over a year on AppLogic.

  17. #17
    Thanks Brent, the pricing has certainly dropped since I last got a quote.

    We deployed Onapp in Feb 09 and the model works very well for us. At the time, applogic pricing was around the 500 dollar a server mark iirc.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrukh View Post
    In terms of the end user, which cloud solution (Applogic or OnApp) would be advantageous for their hosting requirements ?
    It entirely depends on your needs as the end user. In your case I know you are shopping around for a shared web hosting service. In your case I would be more concerned with the company itself and their policies, service, support, and the rest of their infrastructure. Whether the host chooses to use OnApp vs AppLogic is going to be negligible for a $5/mo hosting account.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    It entirely depends on your needs as the end user. In your case I know you are shopping around for a shared web hosting service. In your case I would be more concerned with the company itself and their policies, service, support, and the rest of their infrastructure. Whether the host chooses to use OnApp vs AppLogic is going to be negligible for a $5/mo hosting account.
    My budget is $10 per month for shared hosting.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    Whether the host chooses to use OnApp vs AppLogic is going to be negligible for a $5/mo hosting account.
    Why would it be negligible ?

  21. #21
    As for scalability and the ability to deploy quickly and be fully high-available, onapp does this today, and has been for quite some time...
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrukh View Post
    My budget is $10 per month for shared hosting.
    Alright. The last time we spoke you had told me it was $5 but glad to hear you have raised it a little.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    Alright. The last time we spoke you had told me it was $5 but glad to hear you have raised it a little.
    Can you point me to where i said it was $5 ?

    I was about to go with Innohosting for $6.99 when i talked to you.

  24. #24
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    Wouldnt a hosting provider using OnApp or Applogic have any effect on the end user's use of their hosting accounts ?

  25. #25
    To be honest Farrukh, you're never likely to notice the difference no matter which cloud platform your host is running.

    Things like that only matter if you are running whole servers.
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  26. #26
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    this thread seems to have gone totally off-topic, poor Farrukh was simply looking for a $10 hosting account, and here you all are talking about enterprise scalability etc.
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com & SolusVM.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    this thread seems to have gone totally off-topic, poor Farrukh was simply looking for a $10 hosting account, and here you all are talking about enterprise scalability etc.
    I should have been more clear in my initial post, i wanted to know in terms of the end user.

    But eming, thanks for your contribution to the thread.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    this thread seems to have gone totally off-topic, poor Farrukh was simply looking for a $10 hosting account, and here you all are talking about enterprise scalability etc.
    Not quite. Look at his other posts. He seems to like to get information from various service providers and then go ask the very same questions in the forum. Just by talking to other providers here, it appears I am not the only one he PMs and then takes the info and asks everyone "is this true?"

    Sure, I understand some verification of what you are told is necessary. But for most of it, a simply SEARCH would suffice.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by brentpresley View Post
    Not quite. Look at his other posts. He seems to like to get information from various service providers and then go ask the very same questions in the forum. Just by talking to other providers here, it appears I am not the only one he PMs and then takes the info and asks everyone "is this true?"

    Sure, I understand some verification of what you are told is necessary. But for most of it, a simply SEARCH would suffice.
    the only one who gave me detailed answer was you, brent. Rest only say in criptic cloud lingo, each having their own meanings.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrukh View Post
    I should have been more clear in my initial post, i wanted to know in terms of the end user.

    But eming, thanks for your contribution to the thread.
    alright - let's continue on that tangent then.
    As an end user, what are you looking for? What matters to you?


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com & SolusVM.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrukh View Post
    Can you point me to where i said it was $5 ?

    I was about to go with Innohosting for $6.99 when i talked to you.
    Our conversation was off the forums in private so I can't point you to it publicly. To recap though since you asked, you had discussed with me that you had wanted our CUMULUS pro plan ($4.95/mo) as it was the cheapest plan, but that you wanted more features than were offered by it. I instructed you to the STRATUS premium which was $9.95 which offered the added features you required but you declined saying you were only interested in the cheapest plan.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    Our conversation was off the forums in private so I can't point you to it publicly. To recap though since you asked, you had discussed with me that you had wanted our CUMULUS pro plan ($4.95/mo) as it was the cheapest plan, but that you wanted more features than were offered by it. I instructed you to the STRATUS premium which was $9.95 which offered the added features you required but you declined saying you were only interested in the cheapest plan.
    Thanks for clarifying it.

  33. #33
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    Your no doubt a OnApp user for over 2 years.

    My thing is, I have customers that will build a solution a development grid, Then want to host it on the shared grid. I have to be able to provide the ma BULLET proof way of setting up their application, moving it over to our public grid, and hosting it, it needs to work 100% of the time, EVERY time without delays.

    Applogic allows me to do this. OnApp does not allow me to do this. We do have a colocation custom that does OnApp tho. Costs are substantially higher than Applogic, for less functionality.

    OnApp is a great platform for turn-key VPS/VDS solutions. I wouldn't consider having to manually configure everything a very good solution at the moment even if you can do it manually.

    We've been dealing with Applogic since 2008. a majority of our income doesn't come from VPS/VDS's it comes from clustered solutions. (Application Hosting) Were a customer can build his application, we migrate it, and run it on a public grid. This is our main bread and butter.

    Not trying to get in a content with anybody. Just my opinion. We all have ours.

    Thanks,

    Quote Originally Posted by boskone View Post
    Hi Michael,

    You're no doubt a happy Applogic user

    We've been running onapp now for nearly two years (before it was called onapp) and while not perfect, it nails any other option on price and the rate of feature release is staggering. Most other platforms are relatively stagnant in my experience.

    Not sure what you mean about deploying templates, etc, as onapp supports this now, and works 'every time' as you say - though moving machines between clouds is currently a manual process.

    I'm certainly not having a 'go' at applogic, just saying that, as a provider of hosting, I would recommend onapp over applogic (and I have done extensive reviews of applogic)

  34. #34
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    Whats odd is that we have providers marketing and trying to sell Cloud hosting solutions and using terms such as Applogic and OnApp, to end users.

    And when an end user asks for the difference between each, he is rebuffed by saying that it wont matter to a particular user.

    All what i have seen so far is that the Cloud term is so ambiguous and shrouded with confusion over the correct meanings, that it leads to confusion for the end users.

    Now, since such platforms (Applogic and OnApp) does not matter so much to the end user, then don't appear and post into the threads boosting about your platforms and how its built on this and that.

  35. #35
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    Farrukh,

    Most customers will normally like to know what platform they are hosted on and this can influence their decision making.

    In real terms the technology will not make a difference for the majority of customers who want to pay $10/month for cloud hosting. Looking for a company that matches your values and expectations would be far more important.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrukh View Post
    Whats odd is that we have providers marketing and trying to sell Cloud hosting solutions and using terms such as Applogic and OnApp, to end users.

    And when an end user asks for the difference between each, he is rebuffed by saying that it wont matter to a particular user.

    All what i have seen so far is that the Cloud term is so ambiguous and shrouded with confusion over the correct meanings, that it leads to confusion for the end users.

    Now, since such platforms (Applogic and OnApp) does not matter so much to the end user, then don't appear and post into the threads boosting about your platforms and how its built on this and that.
    When it comes down to specific technology. OnApp (IIRC) runs Xen Hypervisor. Applogic also runs this Xen Hypervisor. The things that are different are what you can do with each.

    OnApp Does VPS/VDS's.

    Applogic does VPS/VDS's + Clustered solutions.

    We went with Applogic in 2008 because of what it could do. Because of the more complex infastructure we could make to support a larger audience of users from the small user, to the large user. It's one of the only platforms that you can really obtain PCI Compliance with because of how it does its infrastructure. srv1 cannot talk to srv2 unless there is a link between srv1 and srv2. MySQL server cannot talk to internet, unless its permitted to talk to the internet.

    There are some key features that we felt made applogic a better platform than OnApp. Even after re-evaluating OnApp last year. We still felt it didn't give us much more than solutions like Virtuozzo. (parallels technology) or OpenVZ. We wanted a 100% complete solution. Applogic gave us this. We literally take basic boxes and throw them into a grid. It takes care of Storage for us and everything. NO need for SAN's arrays, and this an that. Literally normal servers.. Only requirement is you need 2 1000MB NIC's. You should have this with OnApp as well.

    So depends on what you want.

    OnApp. More expensive, Need to know more different technologies from SAN's and stuff.

    Applogic. Cheaper, Complete solution so you dont need to mess with separate sub systems.

    Please correct me if I'm incorrect.

    Thanks,

  37. #37
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    Farrukh

    It matters when it comes down to the interconnects between the virtual machines. When you get to the point where you _HAVE_ to have your own dedicated highly available mysql appliance, the two camps start to diverge in how you set it up.

    As arisythila pointed out, AppLogic is very 'application' centric. Its almost lego-block like in its approach to building out a cluster. OnApp is more dedicated to the underlying fault-tolerance of VMs, and IMHO not as holistic in its approach - at the same time, it's probably a bit more flexible that way too.

    But at the $10 a month shared cloud hosting level, you're just relying on this work that's already done either by the OnApp/AppLogic provider - eg. tieing the loadbalancer/web/database VMs together, setting up the monitoring and failover. You don't need to concern yourself too much with OnApp vs AppLogic.

    If you're expanding beyond the shared hosting and needing to build your own cluster, then it matters. That aside...

    What you probably wanted to ask before this thread went on a tangent, was

    1) What does the end-user notice when a node fails?
    2) What guarantees are there to performance when another shared account starts to consume too much power on the same machine/cluster?
    3) What happens when my own account starts to use more cpu than my equal share?
    4) How is SSL handled?
    5) How are sessions and cookies handled?

    The answers though are more complicated because you'll have to dig deeply into how each provider sets up their internal shared hosting cluster. Whether they use OnApp or AppLogic doesn't matter because it boils down to how they themselves have setup their cluster. What loadbalancers are setup, how many extra machines they have available to bring into the cluster, and what their policies are with respect to resource sharing.

    As an example, one soon to be coming online cloud hoster which uses OnApp doesn't have a loadbalancer. They rely on the underlying failover mechanism of the VMs. Other OnApp providers though may have a complete loadbalanced cluster setup where it scales much better. The spectrum in actual implementations is wide and will vary even on that same platform.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrukh View Post
    Whats odd is that we have providers marketing and trying to sell Cloud hosting solutions and using terms such as Applogic and OnApp, to end users.

    And when an end user asks for the difference between each, he is rebuffed by saying that it wont matter to a particular user.

    All what i have seen so far is that the Cloud term is so ambiguous and shrouded with confusion over the correct meanings, that it leads to confusion for the end users.

    Now, since such platforms (Applogic and OnApp) does not matter so much to the end user, then don't appear and post into the threads boosting about your platforms and how its built on this and that.
    This is becoming a little silly. I know I have spent quite a bit of time answering your questions both on and off the forums in live chat and through tickets. It seems you have also done this with other providers over the past week as well as shown by the threads you have started, and posts you have made also insinuating we are lying by calling Cloud providers, liars. Just about everything we say to try to help you understand leads to convolution and endless doubts.

    Let me ask you this. Would you make a decision on buying a car based on the brake pads they had installed? You are welcome to your opinions but it is counterproductive to your goals and negligible.

    Assuming you are a business owner, and because you have asked for so much of my time if I may be permitted to make a suggestion maybe you should start putting more time into developing your own business instead of worrying so much about every minute detail for something that is going to be negligible to a $10/mo shared hosting account.

    When your business grows and you are in need of a higher level of hosting then take the time to research the technologies more carefully as by that time things will probably have changed a lot.

    Good luck in your search, and I wish you success in your ventures.

  39. #39
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    Tchen,

    I would consider Applogic to be more ... Infrastructure centric. In the sense that it allows you to create complex infrastructures. But I also see it in the same sense that you can build the infrastructure around your applications.

    When it comes down to it. If your going to be running VPS/VDS's I think its a dime a dozen. Applogic versus OnApp. Same Hypervisors, probably same performance.

    For the questions you asked, I can only answer on behalf of Applogic, As we are not OnApp users, and do not have as much experience in the OnApp, But I'm pretty sure they are similar as they use the same Hypervisor.

    1. On Applogic if your not using a more complex cluster users could notice about 1 minute of downtime. If that given server was effected.
    2. Customer A cannot effect Customer B in regards to CPU/Memory utilization.
    3. It cant.
    4. The same as it would be handled with a normal VPS/VDS.
    5. Also the same.

  40. #40
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    Thanks for adding to it Arisythila. I didn't mean to put the wrong words in your mouth

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