Web Hosting Talk : Web Hosting Main Forums : Web Hosting : Is it ok for atlantic.net to refuze/ban clients from an entire country?

[myotis]

Past days I tried to singup with
https://atlantic.net/

I was pretty hungry to try their services ... but tada they don't allow sign ups from my country ... Romania.

Some facts about Romania:
- Romania is an European Union country.
- Romania is the ninth largest country of the European Union by area, and has the seventh largest population of the European Union with 21.5 million people.
- We have a large internet related industry and Romania has been ranked fourth in the world for connection speed in the third quarter of 2009.

And of course some of us, like myself, have a lot of money to spend in internet business.

First I was kindly asked their ticket department for an explanation. They just told I am ... not excepted bercause i am romanian.

What do you think about that? For me it sounds like a very bad type of racism. I know every business is free to chose their own clients.

But to chose by nationality or race sounds to me more like 100 years ago when slaves where working on US plantation. I would accept any kind of security measure to protect the bussines from fraud. I can understand that. I also can understant a company refusing me services because of my bad language or because my websites tamper with their servers. But to deny me just because I am romanian citizen??

What's next with atlantic.net? Bussiness only for the whites?

As a Romanian citizen I consider atlantic.net behavior a racist one. There is no other logical reson for them to refuse me as a client except my nationality as they acknowledged in their email also.

What do you think about this. Is this ok?

... maybe i am wrong because i am a victim of this type of racism and i can not judge clearly. But ... what do you think about?

[NetDepot - Terrence]

If they don't allow you to sign up because of your location move on, I'm sure you can find lots of providers on this forum that can offer you the same service.

[quantumphysics]

They can do whatever they want. They can refuse business with you because your name has an 'o'

Move on.

[myotis]

I fact i am client of a lot of other USA companies from more than 3 years. It's just that I encounter this behavior for the first time. I face it, checks when i had to send my passport image or fraud protection systems calling me at home and i consider that OK and logical.

Please note that if they have denied me with some nice logical explanation like: we aren't accept clients from your country because ... we don't have payment infrastructure OR we are looking forward to the future blabla

... then i wasn't so mad now. It's just their ... I don't know how to name it - bad attitude towards my country that have just drives me hungry.

And of course i will move on. I just wanted other people like me to .. know about this. At least i can do is to shout out my frustration their employees don't take some humanity/attitude classes.

[hostjunkies]

This is likely due to the company designating your country as a high risk country. This might be due to past experience with fraudulent transactions. Rest assured, there are many hosts that allow your country to sign up.

[Question Everything]

Why would you want to share your data and money with racists? Be glad you found out now. There are plenty of fish in the sea.

[myotis]

Yep Question Everything. The funny thing is i have a lot of relatives living in other western countries as citizens. I could ask them for example to pay the services instead of me. But of course no i don't want it anymore after this experience. And other thing i am half Romanian half Greek. I can anytime ask my grandfather for example to pay with his greek card on a greek adress. This show more about how stupid it is in 2011 to deny based on country or nationality in a globalized world.

[Question Everything]

They may not take euros at all, or they don't want to deal with people out of US jurisdiction, etc. There are plenty of American crackpots, how else would Bush have gotten elected?

[Andrew10987]

I would not blame it all on atlantic.net....there are many ISPs in Romania that do NOTHING about clearly malicious users trawling the Internet looking for script vulnerabilities. Every month I see IPs originating from Romania filling my logs with invalid attempts to access script files to exploit. Messages to the offending ISPs go unanswered and nothing happens...Yes, Romania is a EU country but the country does have a bad reputation...a bad reputation that was EARNED because they don't police after themselves.

[myotis]

Unfortunately i must agree with you Andrew10987.

but partially only. For example my servers logs shows me I've got much more than romanian haking attempts from USA ips. But of course nobody can ban USA. It's out of the question.

By the other way all those "script kiddies" i heard of own enoght machines/resources in other countries to make geographical ban... no solution.

I think a decision like that to ban an entire country is like "collateral damages" we all know about in modern wars. A serious person like me will be the only one who lose. Those "hakers" have enough resources to bypass a country ban. It's like they are targeting those guys, but they are dying innocent people. Because bad guys already knows and have the desire to bypass all this. Usual people not.

However i will take your post and show it to some of my friends working in romanian ISP. I am a strong advocate of - more things must be done to combat this behavior.

And don't forget one think. It's very easy for you to put somebody on the line and shout by whatever criteria you have, nationality, skin, race. But it's very hard to be ... a innocent victim. It drives you mad because you know you are a honest person and there is no reason on earth for that. I strongly believe bad and good is not related to a nation but it's universal.

[SamBarrow]

Well before you cry racism you need to think about it from a business perspective. Do you think they woke up one day and said "we hate all Romanians just because we hate all Romanians" and then decided to turn away your business? No. This is far from racism or prejudice of any kind.

This provider, among others (myself included) has probably had bad experiences with signups from Romania. Therefore, it's not worth it to filter through all the fraud to get a couple good signups. It's unfortunate and I can understand your frustration, but business is business, not a charity, and if they're losing money or being otherwise adversely affected by allowing signups from Romania, they have every right to deny them.

If you want to find someone at fault here, blame the scammers that force providers to implement such strict policies.

[myotis]

SamBarrow can you reveal some statistics to back up your ideeas? I am sincerely curious.

As I said statistical speaking i've got more attacks from USA, China or Russia ip's for example than from romanian one. But of course i even not dare to ban usa or russia.

I am talking only about security related attacks for the payments i had no problem but since i am romanian it's safe to assume they don't still from here because they are scared.

I sincerely got the impression this is a soap bubble created mostly out of commodity. Instead of using a better fraud system for example is easier just to ... ban. And it's function on the same principle as racism no matter what you say.

But once again I may be wrong. So what number are saying how many fraud attempts from romania are going on compared to other countries? Is anybody here to ask that?

[MikeDVB]

Originally Posted by myotis

SamBarrow can you reveal some statistics to back up your ideeas? I am sincerely curious.

As I said statistical speaking i've got more attacks from USA, China or Russia ip's for example than from romanian one. But of course i even not dare to ban usa or russia.

Where you get attacked from has little bearing as to where the owners of those "Accounts" are located. You, yourself, are located in Romania and trying to obtain an account in the US meaning that if you were to launch an "attack" from that account it would originate from the US regardless of the fact that you are in Romania.

Originally Posted by myotis

I am talking only about security related attacks for the payments i had no problem but since i am romanian it's safe to assume they don't still from here because they are scared.

It doesn't matter why they don't want to - move on.

I sincerely got the impression this is a soap bubble created mostly out

Originally Posted by myotis

of commodity. Instead of using a better fraud system for example is easier just to ... ban. And it's function on the same principle as racism no matter what you say.

Blocking a country based on high rates of fraud is not racism - it's solid business sense. Whether or not you agree with it doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by myotis

But once again I may be wrong. So what number are saying how many fraud attempts from romania are going on compared to other countries? Is anybody here to ask that?

Well, a lot of providers use MaxMind to scan orders - you may contact MaxMind to see how Romania compares to the rest of the world as far as fraudulent orders. I'm not saying Atlantic.net uses MaxMind but MaxMind does have a very comprehensive database.

[myotis]

Originally Posted by MikeDVB

Well, a lot of providers use MaxMind to scan orders - you may contact MaxMind to see how Romania compares to the rest of the world as far as fraudulent orders. I'm not saying Atlantic.net uses MaxMind but MaxMind does have a very comprehensive database.

This is an entire different approach which i agree. It has nothing to do with banning a country. If my application was denied by not passing a fraud verification method like MaxMind this topic was never created. I am very used to those verification methods.

Once again I don't even have the right for an application.

The fact is i am not a thief, i am honest and i consider is my right to be judged for what i am not for other. You want my passport? Ask for. You want my legal paper, you want to call me call me. Implement whatever fraud protection system you want but give me the chance to prove I am not a thief.

Don't make me a thief just because i am a romanian. It is simple as that... and once again it is racism. Not for you of course because you are ... other nationality.

For you is a big bubble for me is reality of being judged not for what i am but for other. That's again racism.

I will cite from wikipedia

Racism is the belief that the genetic factors which constitute race, ethnicity, or nationality are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that ethnic differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.[1][2][3] Racism's effects are called "racial discrimination." In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or receive preferential treatment.

That's exactly what they are doing no matter what are you trying to prove me. Word by word your argumentation is according to racism definition also.

You don't like the word racist? Maybe that's the problem. Don't be racist then.

No matter what arguments you will submit, their behavior is exactly by the definition of racism. I am sorry i have no time and money to spend on a legal debate about this but i am already thinking of contacting some non profit organizations.

[MikeDVB]

Call it whatever you want - being a private company they have no requirement to provide you services if they choose not to and they don't even have to have a reason.

Ultimately if they choose not to provide services to Romanians simply based upon a high percentage of fraudsters/spammers originating from Romania then that would be a solid reason not to do business with Romania.

Whether or not you agree with, or you like it, isn't going to change the fact that they have no obligation to do business with you.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish in this thread? Are you just wanting to cry in a public place or do you really think that posting here on WHT is going to "change their mind"?

I can understand you being upset that you cannot purchase services with a company that you want to based upon the actions of others in your country - but realistically there isn't going to be anything you can do about that. If they don't want your business, no matter what the reason is, they're not going to take you on as a client.

My advice: move on.