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  1. #1
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    why is he.net transit second rate??

    Why? I know there cheap but why/how are they worse than a premium transit provider like level 3 is it there latency? Do they oversubscribe? Why are they considered second rate?

  2. #2
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    It really comes down to their routing - it isn't always going to be as good as a provider like Level3 who has more peering, and more POPs as well. With this sort of setup, they're able to achieve more optimal inter-city routes decreasing latency quite a bit. HE's network is setup to move a lot of traffic in a cost effective way, it isn't necessarily setup to do it in the best performing way. Still, they deliver a good value overall, and I'd consider them better than a lot of other providers out there.

  3. #3
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    So basically there latency isn't as good then would outhers still recommended them?

  4. #4
    they do not oversubscribe, as speeds can be attained, latency is higher some times due to uneven routing, they are good provider

  5. #5
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    If you want IPv6 transit I'm not sure there's anyone out there comparable to them at the moment either, they've been at the forefront of IPv6 for some years
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  6. #6
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    Level3 is 100% v6 able to, we've been running it for a month without issue.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Visbits View Post
    Level3 is 100% v6 able to, we've been running it for a month without issue.
    The same way that HE.net is fully "v4 able". The HE.net v6 network is more extensive than anyone else's, making them the best choice for that.

    As others have said, the routing and peering on HE isn't quite as good as some other carriers in some cases, but overall it works well. Single homing to any provider is not going to give you great performance to every destination, so asking which provider is better to single home to, is like asking "which car with only three wheels is best?" Maybe we can give you an answer, but it misses the larger picture. As part of a blend, HE is a great provider to include in your mix. By itself, it can certainly be argued that X provider or Y provider has better routes to destinations A, B, and C, but that's going to be true of any transit provider.
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  8. #8
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    I was interested when I first started looking at colocation in using HE, or even using their facility. What turned me off from them was the constant sales pitch in the emails when I was already interested in them.

    For example, I ask simple questions, and then they keep throwing back answers that sound completely like a sales pitch "best in the industry" etc. Or a simple response back from them contains a page and a half of stuff you never asked for trying to sell their product.

    Not the way to market an item...

  9. #9
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    You'll find it's not just their routes to other carriers but routes within their network that are often sub-optimal. It is clear they are routing on cost only.

    We peer with HE in both Atlanta and Los Angeles, we have connectivity to them in Phoenix as well. We'll actually see complaints from clients of ours in Phoenix that are trying to reach somewhere such as Joes or WholeSale that are pretty much HE/Cogent only. HE will end up routing them from phoenix -> dallas -> atlanta -> ashburn -> chicago -> kansas city. It's weird how we see most routes, even between our sites, taking paths all over the country and back again.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanD View Post
    HE will end up routing them from phoenix -> dallas -> atlanta -> ashburn -> chicago -> kansas city. It's weird how we see most routes, even between our sites, taking paths all over the country and back again.
    I've never seen anything like that (at least from Ashburn). At least no worse than most other 'premium' providers, and in some cases better.
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  11. #11
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    but really which carrier has the best routes?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninkynonk View Post
    but really which carrier has the best routes?
    There is no carrier with the best routes. It depends what your source and destination are. Some carriers are known to generally have better routes than other carriers, but it's not so simple to just say that one carrier is the best for everything.
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  13. #13
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    Good then. For me most of the stuff I do tracert goes through level 3! Loads of people like them.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninkynonk View Post
    Good then. For me most of the stuff I do tracert goes through level 3! Loads of people like them.
    They are good. Telia is good. NTT too.

  15. #15
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    HE.net is very cheap because they peer with everyone and everyone's mom. Therefore most of their traffic (I assume!) is free and lowers the cost of actual transit.

    It seems to work well for them though.

  16. #16
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    so is HE transit-free like XO and Cogent? That's how those two are classified.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    ... is like asking "which car with only three wheels is best?" ...
    That would probably be the Reliant Robin.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerdie View Post
    HE.net is very cheap because they peer with everyone and everyone's mom. Therefore most of their traffic (I assume!) is free and lowers the cost of actual transit.

    It seems to work well for them though.
    Bigger more 'premium' networks peer off an even greater portion of their traffic. In fact, HE probably buys transit from GLBX...The argument that their prices are lower because they have more peering wouldn't be correct on a couple levels.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ View Post
    Bigger more 'premium' networks peer off an even greater portion of their traffic. In fact, HE probably buys transit from GLBX...The argument that their prices are lower because they have more peering wouldn't be correct on a couple levels.
    In my tests, most of my HE traffic goes off to peers. Can't speak for every customer.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerdie View Post
    In my tests, most of my HE traffic goes off to peers. Can't speak for every customer.
    Randy (FastServ) is correct - HE doesn't peer off everything, though they do have a substantial amount of peering. Just the fact that they peer everything isn't quite why their pricing is cheaper. For example, Level3 or other tier-1 networks essentially peer off everything, transit isn't really a factor. Yet Level3 is of course not going to be as cheap as HE. HE does still buy transit to reach certain networks.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerdie View Post
    HE.net is very cheap because they peer with everyone and everyone's mom. Therefore most of their traffic (I assume!) is free and lowers the cost of actual transit.

    It seems to work well for them though.
    They actually lack a lot of peering with other carriers and pay for alot of routes.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninkynonk View Post
    so is HE transit-free like XO and Cogent? That's how those two are classified.
    I don't think it would fully accurate to call Cogent transit-free. To my knowledge they do pay to reach certain providers. As above, HE Is not transit free either. Of course, that alone doesn't make either of these bad networks.
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  23. #23
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    wow whoever classified those is weird then. Thanks for the info.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ObjectZone View Post
    That would probably be the Reliant Robin.

    --Chris
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  25. #25
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    The main issues we had noted with HE were with their transport network. When things are local they're great, though who wouldn't be. Issues arose in how things were routed and possible congestion beyond that point. Thing is, I haven't used or looked at using HE for ~4 years now. Back then, even capacity to Chicago was pretty minimal and they seemed very California centric.
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  26. #26
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    Francisco (Frantech/BuyVM):

    - Europe is always hit/miss. Everything is single homed on HE so this isn't really something we can control alas We have many people that can pull a solid 10MB/sec to Norway and such, but those ISP's will have bandwidth with HE or just better peering with HE's upstreams
    replying this post

    5. The speed to European DUL networks and datacenters can be really bad. 100-200kb/s for big data centers in Germany and three DUL providers in Germany and Switzerland. But good to DFN (German Research network) and a Netherland and UK DUL network.

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  27. #27
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    So if you were needing cheap transit latency dosent matter atall but resononable uptime
    would you single home with them in THE?

  28. #28
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    here's the big question:
    if you had the choice between HE or cogent or xo what would you choose?


    if you had to single home what would you choose of those 3?

    (I know people around here do not like cogent or xo)
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by connected2 View Post
    So if you were needing cheap transit latency dosent matter atall but resononable uptime
    would you single home with them in THE?
    Their uptime is good. If I _had_ to be single homed, I'd be equally nervous connected to most if not all other providers.
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  30. #30
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    He.net anyday I think

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visbits View Post
    That was a epic top-gear episode.
    Indeed.

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  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer View Post
    The main issues we had noted with HE were with their transport network. When things are local they're great, though who wouldn't be. Issues arose in how things were routed and possible congestion beyond that point. Thing is, I haven't used or looked at using HE for ~4 years now. Back then, even capacity to Chicago was pretty minimal and they seemed very California centric.
    4 years ago their backbone consisted of GSRs with overloaded OC12 transport links. Those would be the same GSRs that everyone except Cogent has already dumped 10 years ago, and the same OC12s that everyone else upgraded 10 years ago. I'm sure that setup made plenty of sense at the time.. they're a push-heavy network that only needs to backhaul incoming bits on those cross-country transport links. But they were having massive congestion as you point out, right up until the day they decommissioned the last one in favor of OC192s globally. At that time they had major drops in routing at least once a month in their Cali POPs.

    I can't speak for their quality nowadays. I do find it suspect that until recently, their only connectivity between Miami and the rest of their network was via a 10gbit wave to Ashburn. How does that make sense? The distance to Ashburn is nearly double that of Atlanta in route-miles (and for those of you who aren't familiar with the way waves are priced, a vast majority of the cost is distance). It's as if someone offered to give them an MIA-IAD route for $200/mo less than MIA-ATL and they took it. Even now, I see some really inconsistent results whilst probing their network internally. For example, during a traceroute to my home DSL from their Miami node (via http://lg.he.net), I observed that some of the ping times to Atlanta were 13ms (correct) and some were 25msec (not correct) - while everything to IAD was 25 to 26 msec. After repeating it several times and accounting for the fact that their CPUs might be busy, I can only conclude that they still have an MIA-IAD path and an MIA-ATL. The 13msec I'm seeing is direct to/from ATL and the 25msec is MIA-IAD-ATL-MIA. While I understand that normal TCP flows would probably be hashed to one path or another, it still gives me pause because such a practice is _completely abnormal_ in a carrier network.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninkynonk View Post
    here's the big question:
    if you had the choice between HE or cogent or xo what would you choose?


    if you had to single home what would you choose of those 3?

    (I know people around here do not like cogent or xo)
    Hurricane Electric anyday.

  34. #34
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    We've had HE in our networks for several months now. Initially, all was fine, but then we hit a rough patch where we had consistent packet loss (3-8%) for all destinations routing from DEN to CHI. That being said, they were pretty up front about the fact that they had a capacity problem, they implemented near term workarounds to mitigate the situation, provided me with clear dates when they were turn up additional capacity, actually hit those dates also honored their SLA without me even asking for a credit. Are they perfect? No, of course not. I don't expect them to be perfect at their price point, either. And when they had an issue, they fessed up to it and honored their SLA.

    Most providers either don't have a clue what's going on in the field - level(3) took 14 hours to realize that their optical transport gear **** itself in our data center, during which time we were completely down and they had techs validating cross connects in the wrong data center. Others won't honor their SLA. Not even kidding, once had a multi-hour outage because some provider had a tech kink a fiber jumper, which took down some of their intersite transport, and they blamed us for the outage, indicating that if we had redundant connections to their diverse routers, it would not have been a service impacting event.
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  35. #35

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewinet View Post
    4 years ago their backbone consisted of GSRs with overloaded OC12 transport links. Those would be the same GSRs that everyone except Cogent has already dumped 10 years ago, and the same OC12s that everyone else upgraded 10 years ago...
    I'm pretty sure their entire network is Brocade MLX and 10GE now.
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  37. #37
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    If you planned to be single-homed for IPv6 I guess it might not be okay with HE, whereas, HE does not peering with L3/Cogent at the moment. For IPv6 TW maybe a pretty good choice (without considering price)
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by EZ-CONCEPT View Post
    If you planned to be single-homed for IPv6 I guess it might not be okay with HE, whereas, HE does not peering with L3/Cogent at the moment. For IPv6 TW maybe a pretty good choice (without considering price)
    HE carries more IPv6 routes than either L3 or Cogent and more IPv6 eyeball traffic (Tunnelbroker). So if I had to be single homed to any of the three I'd pick HE..
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  39. #39
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    I would choose HE.net of those three.
    They have a large number of peers (http://www.robtex.com/as/as6939.html#peer) and are at many locations (http://he.net/HurricaneElectricNetworkMap.pdf).

    They also plug into a large number of Exchanges, and I'm a big fan of those (http://www.robtex.com/as/as6939.html#asinfo).

  40. #40
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    We've been very happy with our relationship with HE.net so far. Their IP transit product has been very solid for us, and we've had a number of positive comments regarding improvements in speed when we added them to our blend, especially from a number of our customers in Asia who were routed primarily over our Level3 circuit previously.

    Where I really feel like they stand above most of the other carriers out there is the level of customer service they have provided us. When we were working with them to establish a POP in our facility, they could have easily just opted out of our agreement when some problems arose that made connecting our building a lot more difficult than originally anticipated. Instead, they pushed through a solution that will result in us ultimately having a higher level of connectivity to their network than we would have had originally - they basically took a problem and turned it into an opportunity to give us better service in the long run. I can't think of too many carriers that would have gone to those lengths to provide service a new customer, and that includes carriers who charge several times what we pay Hurricane for transit.
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