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  1. #1
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    Thumbs down

    http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/natio...116236674.html

    "Police report on January 13, Trent Allen Longton was seen stashing a Netbook computer inside his clothes in the electronics department of a Walmart near Salt Lake City. Then, he headed toward the front of the store. The workers approached him and escorted him to the loss prevention office. That's where Longton took out the laptop, and then a loaded handgun. He rushed the workers, pushing the gun into Gabe Stewart. [more]
    This is insane,they disarmed the loser and lose thier jobs cause they tried to help Walmart?





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  2. #2
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    I understand their policy but it's clear they only care about the money and not the well being of the employees.
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  3. #3
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    I think we would all feel differently had the shoplifter actually fired the weapon and people ended up shot. Everyone would then blame these employees for provoking an armed criminal and they certainly wouldn't be viewed as heroes. Walmart would then probably be facing several lawsuits. Had the employees just stepped back as they were trained, the shoplifter would likely have just ran out of the store. Of course this isn't always the case, but it's likely this man was desperate and certainly wasn't looking to shoot anyone, but just need the gun as a way out.

    I think we need to always take a step back to analyze the situation and view it from a different angle. They didn't come up with these rules and regulations if they didn't feel they were necessary for the safety of their employees and shoppers. In this case, they were extremely lucky nothing worse had happened.

    However, personally, I wouldn't have resorted to firing them, but simply remind them of the rules set in place. They did go through a rather traumatic ordeal and their bravery shouldn't be punished when the outcome was a good one.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedFactor View Post
    I think we would all feel differently had the shoplifter actually fired the weapon and people ended up shot. Everyone would then blame these employees for provoking an armed criminal and they certainly wouldn't be viewed as heroes. Walmart would then probably be facing several lawsuits. Had the employees just stepped back as they were trained, the shoplifter would likely have just ran out of the store. Of course this isn't always the case, but it's likely this man was desperate and certainly wasn't looking to shoot anyone, but just need the gun as a way out.

    I think we need to always take a step back to analyze the situation and view it from a different angle. They didn't come up with these rules and regulations if they didn't feel they were necessary for the safety of their employees and shoppers. In this case, they were extremely lucky nothing worse had happened.

    However, personally, I wouldn't have resorted to firing them, but simply remind them of the rules set in place. They did go through a rather traumatic ordeal and their bravery shouldn't be punished when the outcome was a good one.
    You can't assume a shoplifter with a gun is going to simply run out of the store. He could have decided to begin shooting. If someone is pointing a weapon at someone and I have an opportunity to intervene, I am going to. Assuming is what would get you killed. What's that saying... hope for the best but prepare for the worst?

  5. #5
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    This whole scenario depends on a lot of things that all of us would never know without being there. While we may never know if the guy was going to actually shoot, I believe the chances of surviving is MUCH higher if one is to stand down, rather than tackle the guy and potentially having a shot go off intentionally or unintentionally.

    It's not about assuming, but doing the smart thing depending on the situation. However, that also depends on your judgment (or lack thereof) for you to intervene. If you're actually capable of disarming someone effectively and you saw the opportunity was there, that's great - the odds are much higher that no one will get hurt. However, that is your opinion of your own abilities. Walmart cannot depend on that to ensure the safety of everyone, thus they have these rules in place. If they're going to face lawsuits as a result of their own rules, they can accept that. But to face lawsuits as a result of their employees' actions which were against their rules, that's something that cannot be tolerated. As I've said, things would be MUCH different had shots been fired and people hurt because their employees stepped in.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedFactor View Post
    This whole scenario depends on a lot of things that all of us would never know without being there. While we may never know if the guy was going to actually shoot, I believe the chances of surviving is MUCH higher if one is to stand down, rather than tackle the guy and potentially having a shot go off intentionally or unintentionally.

    It's not about assuming, but doing the smart thing depending on the situation. However, that also depends on your judgment (or lack thereof) for you to intervene. If you're actually capable of disarming someone effectively and you saw the opportunity was there, that's great - the odds are much higher that no one will get hurt. However, that is your opinion of your own abilities. Walmart cannot depend on that to ensure the safety of everyone, thus they have these rules in place. If they're going to face lawsuits as a result of their own rules, they can accept that. But to face lawsuits as a result of their employees' actions which were against their rules, that's something that cannot be tolerated. As I've said, things would be MUCH different had shots been fired and people hurt.
    Yeah well better the guy get taken down than for him to get pissed and put a bullet in every person he passes.

  7. #7
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    well dang guess that teach that worker to never approch a shoplifter again crap that worker got fired over that could have happen any place

  8. #8
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    You're not seeing my point and would rather play hero, even if everyone gets hurt in the process, including yourself. Things don't always play out the way you imagine them. That's fine. Let's agree to disagree.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedFactor View Post
    You're not seeing my point and would rather play hero, even if everyone gets hurt in the process, including yourself. Things don't always play out the way you imagine them. That's fine. Let's agree to disagree.
    Saying that "everyone" is going to get hurt is an overstatement. It's a pistol, not a machine gun.

  10. #10
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    Loss Prevention - most retail stores have their own LP staff to deal with it. Employees aren't supposed to do anything but alert them if they see theft happening. I know it's rather weird, but they did that to prevent lawsuits in case employees were to get injured or killed or if the guy shoplifting gets injured or killed.

    I don't think they should have been fired over it, maybe reminded of the policy and that's it.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedFactor View Post
    You're not seeing my point and would rather play hero, even if everyone gets hurt in the process, including yourself. Things don't always play out the way you imagine them. That's fine. Let's agree to disagree.
    I dont think anyone was trying to play hero, if you read the article the gunman pulled the gone out and started shoving it in an employees face in an aggressive manner. I know if that were me, and I had a gun in my face I'd probably try to disarm the gunman, not because I was trying to be a hero, but because I believe in fighting for my life?

    Who knows, every situation is different, but I dont think walmart should have fired or commended the employees.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ View Post
    Saying that "everyone" is going to get hurt is an overstatement. It's a pistol, not a machine gun.
    What does that have to do with my point, or yours for that matter? Completely irrelevant. One person shot is one too many.

    All I'm trying to say is that I can understand the stance that Walmart as taken regarding this situation and I've simply offered a different way of looking at it. Not everything is black and white, right or wrong. You are entitled to your opinion. Let's leave it at that.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedFactor View Post
    What does that have to do with my point, or yours for that matter? Completely irrelevant. One person shot is one too many.

    All I'm trying to say is that I can understand the stance that Walmart as taken regarding this situation and I've simply offered a different way of looking at it. Not everything is black and white, right or wrong. You are entitled to your opinion. Let's leave it at that.
    And if he began shooting each individual, one by one... what should you do, wait your turn?

  14. #14
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    I hope they sue Walmart and win.
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  15. #15
    I hope they sue Wal-Mart too. Convenience stores even try to prevent theft when the robber has a gun. Why is this is any different?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattS View Post
    Loss Prevention - most retail stores have their own LP staff to deal with it. Employees aren't supposed to do anything but alert them if they see theft happening. I know it's rather weird, but they did that to prevent lawsuits in case employees were to get injured or killed or if the guy shoplifting gets injured or killed.

    I don't think they should have been fired over it, maybe reminded of the policy and that's it.

    I agree, usually with big corporations (and small), the employees are trained to just let them go. At least when I was working retail, that's what they told me to do. If you see it happen, notify the manager, but never go after them.
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  17. #17
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    It is a tough issue.

    Hmmm... How would everyone have reacted if the shoplifter had retained control of the gun (following a fight over the gun) and shot all four of the workers?

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike - Limestone View Post
    It is a tough issue.

    Hmmm... How would everyone have reacted if the shoplifter had retained control of the gun (following a fight over the gun) and shot all four of the workers?

    -mike
    Regardless of what might have happened, I dont think employees should be punished for defending themselves. Unless the real problem here is that they probably should never of have confronted the shop lifter to begin with? I know certain stores have policies where stores are instructed to simply take down information about the theft and call the police. Really at the end of the day, Walmart needs to take responsibility instead of throwing their employees under the bus.

    I've never been a big fan of walmart anyway, in my opinion they are probably one of the shadiest corporations in America.
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  19. #19
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    I used for work in retail for a few years during when I was in college. We were always told to NEVER EVER confront shop lifters. I don't know if firing the employees is fair. But imagine of the suspected thief got hurt. Walmart could be sued for millions.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by h4wk View Post
    <snip>But imagine of the suspected thief got hurt. Walmart could be sued for millions.
    Sadly, you may be right. How shoplifters might make the real money:

    1. Pull a gun on store employees.
    2. Get "hurt" by the employees as they try to disarm him.
    3. Sue the company.
    4. PROFIT!

    :/

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by h4wk View Post
    I used for work in retail for a few years during when I was in college. We were always told to NEVER EVER confront shop lifters. I don't know if firing the employees is fair. But imagine of the suspected thief got hurt. Walmart could be sued for millions.
    I believe the only situation where people would be able to sue Walmart for employees intervening, would be if customers got hurt. Technically, walmart is private property and they have every right to defend that property. Its no different than a robber breaking into your house, you shooting the house and then the robber trying to sue you for shooting him, not gonna happen.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FernGullyGraphics View Post
    Its no different than a robber breaking into your house, you shooting the house and then the robber trying to sue you for shooting him, not gonna happen.
    Actually, that does happen. :p Without getting too off-topic, the advice is, "If you shoot a burglar, shoot to kill." Otherwise the risk of suit is fairly high (typically under the grounds of excessive force).

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike - Limestone View Post
    Actually, that does happen. :p Without getting too off-topic, the advice is, "If you shoot a burglar, shoot to kill." Otherwise the risk of suit is fairly high (typically under the grounds of excessive force).

    -mike
    That's actually not true and somewhat of a myth. Now if you tie up an unarmed burglar and torture them.. that's a whole different story. However I dont think there has ever been a case where an armed intruder was shot during the commission of a crime, who then sued the owner/business or police department and won. In most states there are laws protecting citizens and businesses from frivolous lawsuits. In other words, you can try to sue, but its not going to get you anywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FernGullyGraphics View Post
    However I dont think there has ever been a case where an armed intruder was shot during the commission of a crime, who then sued the owner/business or police department and won.
    I don't know if any have been won, but there certainly have been such lawsuits. Lawsuits cost money to defend, and often times the insurance company will choose to settle in order to make it go away.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FernGullyGraphics View Post
    That's actually not true and somewhat of a myth. Now if you tie up an unarmed burglar and torture them.. that's a whole different story. However I dont think there has ever been a case where an armed intruder was shot during the commission of a crime, who then sued the owner/business or police department and won. In most states there are laws protecting citizens and businesses from frivolous lawsuits. In other words, you can try to sue, but its not going to get you anywhere.
    There have definitely been lawsuits of this nature.

  26. #26
    Some cashier clown chases a shoplifter out in the parking lot and shoplifter gets hit by a car or cashier does then Wal-Mart has liability from an ambulance chasing lawyer. A story kinda similar happened here where a man was beating his girlfriend / wife / ex and the maintenance man who lived on the property in the apartment complex confronted the man with a shotgun. Next day, he got fired for having a weapon even thought State of Florida law clearly allowed the maintenance man to fire his weapon, wound or kill the perpetrator and have it be justifiable self-defense because he used his weapon in defense of someone who was having a violent felony committed against them.

    It's just employers and owners are scared of ambulance chasing lawyers who file frivolous lawsuits. Remember the McDonalds coffee case where the coffee was "too hot" and it spilled on the person's lap in the drive-thru?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsdvps View Post
    Some cashier clown chases a shoplifter out in the parking lot and shoplifter gets hit by a car or cashier does then Wal-Mart has liability from an ambulance chasing lawyer. A story kinda similar happened here where a man was beating his girlfriend / wife / ex and the maintenance man who lived on the property in the apartment complex confronted the man with a shotgun. Next day, he got fired for having a weapon even thought State of Florida law clearly allowed the maintenance man to fire his weapon, wound or kill the perpetrator and have it be justifiable self-defense because he used his weapon in defense of someone who was having a violent felony committed against them.

    It's just employers and owners are scared of ambulance chasing lawyers who file frivolous lawsuits. Remember the McDonalds coffee case where the coffee was "too hot" and it spilled on the person's lap in the drive-thru?
    The person who sued McDonalds because of the coffee didn't deserve a penny. Absolutely ridiculous. How would you expect coffee to be served, cold?

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ View Post
    There have definitely been lawsuits of this nature.

    Castle Doctrine
    exists to prevent these types of law suits so if it happened then it happened in a state without Castle Doctrine, like Iowa where I'm a carry permit holder, or it was before that state adopted Castle Doctrine. Thankfully IFC is working to get one pushed through after a wonderful job they did moving us to a shall issue state.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ View Post
    The person who sued McDonalds because of the coffee didn't deserve a penny. Absolutely ridiculous. How would you expect coffee to be served, cold?
    The coffee caused a ridiculous degree of burns to the victim, including on the genitals, and thighs. McDonalds had prior information that the coffee was too hot, and employee testimonials that the coffee needed to be absurdly hot (something like 175 F). She was awarded $640,000 in compensation---though the jury wanted to award more. Originally she appealed for McDonalds to cover $20,000.

    Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[12] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her down to 83 pounds.[13] Two years of medical treatment followed.
    Hardly frivolous in my opinion.

    Also, regarding Wal*Mart, I agree this is too harsh. I find it odd the took this action, because my friend and his brother worked LP at Wal*Mart for quite awhile, and used to literally tackle and handcuff shoplifters frequently. Though they would disengage if weapons were pulled (a hatchet, and tire iron once)...
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ View Post
    There have definitely been lawsuits of this nature.
    Do you have any examples? I've searched the web and could not find any real lawsuits only hoaxs or unverified stories without real case numbers. If you find any, let me know, I would definitely be interested in reading about it.
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  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by FernGullyGraphics View Post
    Do you have any examples? I've searched the web and could not find any real lawsuits only hoaxs or unverified stories without real case numbers. If you find any, let me know, I would definitely be interested in reading about it.
    Man falls through a skylight and lands on a kitchen counter or something that injured him due to something being on it.

    Another man breaks into a house through a window and while crawling in, cuts his arm deeply with a finishing nail that was not nailed into the trim, then days later sues the homeowner for negligence because it damaged the nerves in his arm.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsdvps View Post
    Man falls through a skylight and lands on a kitchen counter or something that injured him due to something being on it.

    Another man breaks into a house through a window and while crawling in, cuts his arm deeply with a finishing nail that was not nailed into the trim, then days later sues the homeowner for negligence because it damaged the nerves in his arm.
    I'm pretty sure those aren't real cases, the one about the man falling through the skylight is an internet hoax that's been circulating the internet for awhile.
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  33. #33
    What ever happened to being sure and unsure. I know a local case where a homeowner shot a burglar and some ambulance chasing lawyer filed a case

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