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  1. #1
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    cloud vs vps / dedicated

    I am in a dilemma and i am sure so are many hosting providers.. i see cloud VPS as the future of web hosting and could possibly bridge the gap between traditional vps and dedi servers and maybe eliminate them to quite a good extent.

    If you are planning to offer your customer vps and dedicated servers, would you rather go for cloud vps as it is quite pocket friendly to start with and is highly scalable ?

  2. #2
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    Cloud is the future with what you mention in the last sentence being one of the reasons, you can now start small and scale as you actually need it, without being stuck in a contract paying for a massively over spec'd dedicated server for a project that never took off.

    Now for little more than the price of a shared hosting account you can get your own server with full management tools , back-ups , monitoring tools etc auto-failover and heaps of redundancy - it would be very hard to make the dedicated sell when taking that into consideration.

  3. #3
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    I guess others may reason differently, but when it comes to small companies I'm more comfortable getting a dedi from them than a cloud service.

    When their cloud is really just 1 SAN-box with 2 front-end servers, the scalability and redundancy benefits over a well equipped dedi are minimal. At the same time it's much easier for the company to hire additional staff to maintain the dedi's than it is to find someone knowledgeable enough to maintain a (probably custom) cloud service.

    Unless you have a lot of funding or you're starting this with a large group of people, I would go for dedi's first.

  4. #4
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    @xnpu.. true if you knew what was going behind the scene.. but if you were just a customer without knowing how many servers were on the cloud etc then would you still go for the dedi or cloud (which would be 1/3 the price)?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnpu View Post
    I guess others may reason differently, but when it comes to small companies I'm more comfortable getting a dedi from them than a cloud service.

    When their cloud is really just 1 SAN-box with 2 front-end servers, the scalability and redundancy benefits over a well equipped dedi are minimal. At the same time it's much easier for the company to hire additional staff to maintain the dedi's than it is to find someone knowledgeable enough to maintain a (probably custom) cloud service.

    Unless you have a lot of funding or you're starting this with a large group of people, I would go for dedi's first.
    Hrm.. if a provider's cloud consists of 1 SAN and just 2 servers, that is beyond small.. but more or less micro.

    IMHO if any consumer is looking to purchase any Cloud based services from a provider they should ask the provider the following:

    1) Please tell me about your Cloud as far as what hardware is used on the servers, storage, and networking layers.
    2) Please tell me what software makes up your Cloud.
    3) Please tell me what levels of redundancies are in place with that infrastructure and what level of high availability is offered on this solution.

    If you are tech-savvy, the third question should start lining up with the first two. The first question you should be looking for answers of modern hardware, redundant hardware, and just general good high quality stuff. I would not want to be on a first generation quad core xeon based cloud, single network switches, or other major single points of failure. The second question I would need to hear more than just a Virtualization platform but more specifically what actual software layers define their Cloud. Some software is very much superior to others.

    Consequentially if I was a consumer and not a provider I would be looking for redundancies on the whole infrastructure and a well known stable software platform. A single SAN is a single point of failure which not only results in downtime for the consumer but a support spike for the provider as not just one customer goes down, but many.

    Cloud does however just need N+1 so technically 2 servers could work, and we actually have some customers who are small but wanted a Private Cloud and do just two servers, but at 50% waste (the +1 in N+1) it is not cost effective. But again.. to each their own and for someone who needs it, it may still make perfect sense for them. I can definitely vouch for this customer in saying that it does, but I could also never recommend it for someone who's business was not that critical without huge liabilities for lost information and downtime beyond a certain level.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by funguru View Post
    I am in a dilemma and i am sure so are many hosting providers.. i see cloud VPS as the future of web hosting and could possibly bridge the gap between traditional vps and dedi servers and maybe eliminate them to quite a good extent.

    If you are planning to offer your customer vps and dedicated servers, would you rather go for cloud vps as it is quite pocket friendly to start with and is highly scalable ?
    The gap between services is shrinking for sure. VPS in it's purest sense is the earlier technology of virtualization. In and of itself is a great technology and also a key component of Cloud. However it does have limitations, just like a stand-alone dedicated server.

    Price is a sensitive topic to Cloud as there are quite a few ways Cloud can be achieved, and it depends on the level of services the Cloud provider is offering. In comparing the most basic sense of:

    1) Standard VPS
    2) Cloud Server (Cloud VPS)
    3) Dedicated Server

    In terms of price, it will vary but generally speaking the 1st is the cheapest, then the Cloud Server and Dedicated Server will vary based on the amount of resources you need. For example, if you just need 2GB/RAM you may find a Cloud VPS provider is providing many benefits up and above a Dedicated server and less than the cost of a Dedicated server of equal hardware specs.

    However as you grow you would need to determine the level of service you expect. If you need an environment with 8GB/RAM a Cloud Server is becoming more costly at this point due to the infrastructure, licensing costs, etc of the provider. It's cheaper to just toss up a stand-alone Dedicated server but it's also lacking ease of management, scalability, redundancy, and so on.

    As a consumer, you will ultimately determine the needs of your business and your application. I have customer who are very happy to spend 2-3x as much for a large Cloud Server than they would for a Dedicated, but then I also have some who bulk at a $20/mo difference once they are starting to cross that price gap. To them and the services they are offering it is not providing value to their business, yet. But in time costs will change...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by funguru View Post
    @xnpu.. true if you knew what was going behind the scene.. but if you were just a customer without knowing how many servers were on the cloud etc then would you still go for the dedi or cloud (which would be 1/3 the price)?
    If I don't know a cloud service, by which I mean I can't find any reliable reviews, I won't use them. I select a cloud service when I need the typical cloud benefits. If I can't verify that those benefits are really there, then what's the point?

    EDIT: Price is typically not the primary motivator for me. For some people it will be, but they may go for simpler VPS solutions.
    Last edited by xnpu; 02-07-2011 at 11:06 AM.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for the detailed reply cloudweb... i am already, i am sure the cost of cloud will come down further as the hardware / bw / software costs come down.. at that point of time which could be as early as 2012, people would go with cloud than a dedi and stand alone vps might just be obsolete.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by funguru View Post
    Thanks for the detailed reply cloudweb... i am already, i am sure the cost of cloud will come down further as the hardware / bw / software costs come down.. at that point of time which could be as early as 2012, people would go with cloud than a dedi and stand alone vps might just be obsolete.
    Standard VPS is already becoming obsolete. There are very small cost differences in that market and only those with the smallest of budgets and simplest of needs should consider traditional VPS at this point.

  10. #10
    At the moment, you can buy a cloud server for the same price as a good VPS server - so there is no contest - cloud all the way.

    With new SAN and servers, many Cloud Machines are also going to obsolete budget and basic dedicated servers, and even mid-range dedicated servers also.
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  11. #11
    Depending for what purposes and how much you will invest for hosting. Starting with VPS is not bad for start.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by funguru View Post
    I am in a dilemma and i am sure so are many hosting providers.. i see cloud VPS as the future of web hosting and could possibly bridge the gap between traditional vps and dedi servers and maybe eliminate them to quite a good extent.

    If you are planning to offer your customer vps and dedicated servers, would you rather go for cloud vps as it is quite pocket friendly to start with and is highly scalable ?
    In my opinion, the Cloud really doesn't bridge the gap between traditional VPS & dedicated. It really is its own separate beast, because what the cloud solves is something that traditional VPS providers and dedicated servers really can't - which is the ability to dynamically scale on, and provide high availability. With a traditional VPS or a dedicated server you're limited to one specific server, which means limited scaling, and EXTREMELY limited redundancy.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by funguru View Post
    I am in a dilemma and i am sure so are many hosting providers.. i see cloud VPS as the future of web hosting and could possibly bridge the gap between traditional vps and dedi servers and maybe eliminate them to quite a good extent.

    If you are planning to offer your customer vps and dedicated servers, would you rather go for cloud vps as it is quite pocket friendly to start with and is highly scalable ?
    uncomperable things...
    there is a lot of questions inside.
    you cant simply say 1:1

  14. #14
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    @joeblink... they are not un comparable simply because if you see from a customers point of view they are boud to compare them to see what suites them best.. i am just trying to determine which would a customer choose more often.

  15. #15
    What about what a site can actually handle as far as traffic loads in comparison from a VPS to a Cloud vs a Shared?

    I heard a VPS is an apartment building and you have one apartment where the Shared is the same building but you have a roomate in your apartment. So what would the cloud be? On Floor?

  16. #16
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    A cloud could be a few apartment buildings clustered together where you get a apartment to yourself and if your need more space another apartment is automatically allocated to you without you having to think about moving to a bigger apartment in another community.. This is possibly the most basic explanation.

  17. #17
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    In my opinion cloud hosting service will be much better to choose as there are much more advantages of using it. It also ensures 100% availability guarantee...

  18. #18
    I would like to reveal some ample aspect of the cloud hosting that are:
    We know cloud hosting is quite pocket friendly to the costumer but it can also hurt to the your site eg- more load time , security issue .
    As far as dedicated hosting , it is bitter costly for the customer but you will get high quality service .

  19. #19
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    @jhone: How does cloud hosting increase load time when you are websites does not share any resources and what are the security issues?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnston981 View Post
    It also ensures 100% availability guarantee...
    I'm sorry but I have to stop you right there, Cloud does not guarantee 100% availability nor is it required in the design of the infrastructure. It does provide increased reliability and we are seeing higher uptimes as failures are handled automatically, and seamlessly, but that still means a few minutes of downtime here or there when a server crashes.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    but that still means a few minutes of downtime here or there when a server crashes.
    True but the time it takes for a server rebooting is far better than the time taken to repair a physical machine that has crashed.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sposs View Post
    True but the time it takes for a server rebooting is far better than the time taken to repair a physical machine that has crashed.
    Absolutely, it is much better than traditional methods. My concern for posting was that people sign up with us then see posts like that and say "but I thought Cloud never goes down. I want my money back" meanwhile, we achieved 99.996% uptime and availability.

    It's important that Consumer's have clear expectations and are not raising the bar too high due to misinformation. 100% uptime solutions are very hard to achieve, and even the biggest sites and companies go down from time to time and most of the time it's because of software related issues or maintenance that must occur. Even in Cloud, the application environment is still run on software and those layers too must be upgraded from time to time, so outages will always occur.
    Last edited by JasonD10; 02-09-2011 at 10:24 AM.

  23. #23
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    Very true , well said

  24. #24
    i think everything will become a cloud environment in time regular hosting plans just seem to waste to many resources

  25. #25
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    if you require better i/o performance dedi is still the best option.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickWeb-Roel View Post
    if you require better i/o performance dedi is still the best option.
    That's like saying if you need to get to Los Angeles it's faster to ride a bike. Infrastructure is infrastructure and saying "dedicated > cloud" for IO is just not a fair statement and it is not taking into consideration anything of that infrastructure.

    What if the dedicated you're comparing is just a SATA drive? Or even a RAID10 SAS?

    The Cloud could be built up with FusionIO far surpassing the capabilities of your run of the mill dedicated server.

  27. #27
    I prefer VPS, had dedicated but it is such a waste of money

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    That's like saying if you need to get to Los Angeles it's faster to ride a bike. Infrastructure is infrastructure and saying "dedicated > cloud" for IO is just not a fair statement and it is not taking into consideration anything of that infrastructure.

    What if the dedicated you're comparing is just a SATA drive? Or even a RAID10 SAS?

    The Cloud could be built up with FusionIO far surpassing the capabilities of your run of the mill dedicated server.
    I thought this would come

    Well any could provider can say they have the best performing/ most expensive SANs but that is something under the hood not visible to the end user (whether true or not), at the end of the day if you are on a dedi everything is transparent and you know how much performance you can get/expect from your box depending on your setup.
    QuickWeb™ -We Host Servers Like a Boss!
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    Worldwide hosting provider with proven 24x7 and 25-Minute Support!
    www.quickweb.co.nz and GETVZ - Complete VPS Package with SSD Drive

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    Standard VPS is already becoming obsolete. There are very small cost differences in that market and only those with the smallest of budgets and simplest of needs should consider traditional VPS at this point.
    I find this doubtfull given the current state of cloud services available right now.

    Dedicated when sized appropriately still offer the best price to performance ratio, just at the lack of scalability. Lack of redundancy can be a negative, but can also be a plus at the lack of complexity.

    VPS's are the tried and true hosting platform, they simply work and they offer a good value still in the marketplace while offering almost as much scalability as most cloud providers offer now due to restrictive package deals on nodes. Reliability is also high on these compared to most cloud systems.

    Cloud offerings tend to scale higher in price as more resources are needed, or cost much more than most equivalent VPS or Dedicated offerings when compared due to the hourly or monthly metered nature and package based pricing. Still given all that the infrastructure and scaling is promising as the services mature.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sshepherd View Post
    VPS's are the tried and true hosting platform, they simply work and they offer a good value still in the marketplace while offering almost as much scalability as most cloud providers offer now due to restrictive package deals on nodes. Reliability is also high on these compared to most cloud systems.
    Agreed that most VPS providers offer different packages to scale up and it is quire reliable whoever VPS does not deal good when it comes to spike in traffic, it could be in the middle of the night that your site is features on a influential blog which sends you a lot of traffic and your website goes down because of it.

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by funguru View Post
    I am in a dilemma and i am sure so are many hosting providers.. i see cloud VPS as the future of web hosting and could possibly bridge the gap between traditional vps and dedi servers and maybe eliminate them to quite a good extent.

    If you are planning to offer your customer vps and dedicated servers, would you rather go for cloud vps as it is quite pocket friendly to start with and is highly scalable ?
    Hi,
    Can any one can please differentiate between Cloud hosting
    and VPS hosting Which Will better in both cost effective and Fast reliable and Most important is support?? can any one please tell me

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by funguru View Post
    it could be in the middle of the night that your site is features on a influential blog which sends you a lot of traffic and your website goes down because of it.
    Which cloud provider will scale your cloud server automatically to meet the increased demand while you sleep? If such feature is available at a reasonable cost, I would love to get one.

    Most that I've seen require you to login to a control panel and scale manually. Some even take your server down while scaling, which makes it useless in your scenario.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnpu View Post

    Most that I've seen require you to login to a control panel and scale manually. Some even take your server down while scaling, which makes it useless in your scenario.
    If your running cloudlinux or centos5.5 you can scale easily without the need for a reboot.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickWeb-Roel View Post
    I thought this would come

    Well any could provider can say they have the best performing/ most expensive SANs but that is something under the hood not visible to the end user (whether true or not), at the end of the day if you are on a dedi everything is transparent and you know how much performance you can get/expect from your box depending on your setup.
    Some providers publish this publicly, and for those that don't it takes about 1 minute of time to ask the provider about their infrastructure. Cloud Hosting can be just as transparent. If a host fails to disclose infrastructure details then the consumer can move along.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sposs View Post
    If your running cloudlinux or centos5.5 you can scale easily without the need for a reboot.
    Most support that, but you still need to login to a control panel to buy more resources, then tell CL or CentOS to scale up. Funguru was suggesting that the cloud would automatically scale your server while it gets hit by a sudden increase in traffic during your sleep.

    In Funguru's scenario I'll have to be alarmed to the fact that the traffic spike is occurring, get out of my bed and perform the scale up.

    I think it's certainly possible to create what Funguru suggests, but I haven't found any cloud service that offers it. (Unless you consider that a managed cloud service may have engineers doing this for you.)

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sshepherd View Post
    I find this doubtfull given the current state of cloud services available right now.

    Dedicated when sized appropriately still offer the best price to performance ratio, just at the lack of scalability. Lack of redundancy can be a negative, but can also be a plus at the lack of complexity.

    VPS's are the tried and true hosting platform, they simply work and they offer a good value still in the marketplace while offering almost as much scalability as most cloud providers offer now due to restrictive package deals on nodes. Reliability is also high on these compared to most cloud systems.

    Cloud offerings tend to scale higher in price as more resources are needed, or cost much more than most equivalent VPS or Dedicated offerings when compared due to the hourly or monthly metered nature and package based pricing. Still given all that the infrastructure and scaling is promising as the services mature.
    If an application is of a fixed size, with fixed requirements, that can deal with the lack of scalability, complexity of management, and limitations provided by a dedicated server then you may find that "pound to pound" resources purchased in a dedicated environment will be cheaper. However Cloud is not complex for the end-user, and frankly it's less complex for a provider if done properly. We've done traditional hosting far longer than Cloud, and still maintain a majorly non-cloud customer base due to that.

    Cloud Servers = Cloud VPS. They are very similar, except for added benefits of not being tied to a physical server, easier management, greater scalability, and so on. Cloud Servers, aka Cloud VPS, aka VPS 2.0, is the replacement technology to standard VPS.

    Some scaled environments do cost more "pound for pound", however we find for many applications those increased prices are actually less due to overall resource usage dropping. In a standard server cluster you have a lot of dedicated servers needing spare resources, and redundancy provided on a hardware level. When Cloud is added to the mix there is no waste unless it's a Private Cloud, and in Private Cloud, N+1 is still usually sufficient and at the end of the day also results in less hardware.

    We're doing a large conversion now for a long term customer from a traditional cluster of 28 servers to 12 servers that are made up for their Private Cloud. This could not have been done without Cloud Technology due to the complexity of their business and many applications required. At the end of the day, this particular infrastructure is actually dropping their hosting cost to less than half of what they pay us today.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnpu View Post
    Which cloud provider will scale your cloud server automatically to meet the increased demand while you sleep? If such feature is available at a reasonable cost, I would love to get one.

    Most that I've seen require you to login to a control panel and scale manually. Some even take your server down while scaling, which makes it useless in your scenario.
    Providers utilizing the AppLogic platform have this ability as it's the only Cloud platform that has dynamic private auto-scaling environments that is not in a shared hosting environment like Rackspace Cloud Sites. Oh, and it also scales vertically beyond one physical server.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    Providers utilizing the AppLogic platform have this ability as it's the only Cloud platform that has dynamic private auto-scaling environments that is not in a shared hosting environment like Rackspace Cloud Sites. Oh, and it also scales vertically beyond one physical server.
    Thanks for the info. Will have a closer look at AppLogic based providers.

  39. #39
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    Thanks xnpu, i will look into app logic my self.. are there any true cloud reseller options out there?

  40. #40
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    Wikipedia has a good technical overview of the "Cloud Computing" subject.

    As a consumer/developer though (not a hosting provider), what I would consider an important feature from a cloud provider would be an API to dynamically add/remove instances (see libcloud). This is what sets apart Cloud hosting from simply a VPS/dedicated. This demands a highly automated infrastructure to begin with, meaning your application/webapp/system was designed to scale out with the cloud in mind. As demand increases/decreases (traffic spikes, data stream bursts, etc), your app with your attendance or not, can react however you want; the API provides back a level of control to you. It is not for everyone. It requires a specialized architecture from your app to take full advantage of this scale in/out feature. I am thinking about the libcloud API, AmazonAWS/Rackspace cloud, Heroku, RightScale, etc..

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