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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    They don't want to waste time because I'm Turkish. Is this rude and racist manner normal in the hosting industry?
    That's not racism. Look up the definition.
    According to Merriam-Webster,

    a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    Firstly, Turkey is not a race, it's a country. Look it up.
    Secondly, Turnkey acknowledges that they don't believe all Turkish are frauds, but they simply have an experience of high fraud rates in your country.

    Are you practicing "racism" as well when you avoid Nigerian hosting companies due to the high fraud rate?
    Stop childishly using such words to create a theater out of a small issue.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurakUeda View Post
    To the people talking about standard fraud checks:
    He didn't pay with credit card. He paid with PayPal.
    Turnkey has no right to ask him to send his CC info.

    If they don't trust PayPal payments, they should not use it at all.
    Saying that, I think this is more of a discrimination and being ignorant rather than racism.
    Turnkey has all rights to take the procedures it feel necessary before doing business with anyone.
    You do not have the right to the service of a company.
    Similarly, you can choose NOT to do business with Turnkey and reject their terms.

    PayPal's payments are not trustable because they do little to verify you.
    Most of their "verified" users in fradulent countries use gift cards or the like to verify themselves, and little is done to verify their name/addresses nor credit rating. CCs at least verify your address and credit rating.

    This is not ignorance.
    Those who claim otherwise (rely on PayPal!) are the ones truly ignorant.

    And to those who claim that "if you don't trust PayPal, don't use them", the issue is that PayPal is convenient and is a good form of payment provided the user is not fraudulent.
    That's why companies still accept them, but they do their own external fraud checks.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    Are you black?

    Evet, in the US merchants have the right to ask for proof of a person's identity by way of photo ID when payment is made in any other form than CASH.

    You pay by check, charge, paypal, I don't care if you are green and come from Vulcan, I need a copy of your driver's license, photo ID, passport, something!

    Its a completely common practice to ask for photo ID from someone attempting to pay with something other than cash. Its neither racist, nor unethical.

    What exactly makes you think this is racist?
    ahh, this depends. you're not allowed to refuse a card present transaction on the basis of id

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    Is it legal in US to say "You have yo give us your credit card number because you're black. Yeah, you've paid for the service, but black people has high rate of fraud, so you have to scan your credit card and picture ID"?
    It is legal to say in the US, because you live in Miami/Dade countybecause of the high level of fraud we require a much more extensive background check to provide you with a home loan and it will cost you $325 instead of the normal $35.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by quantumphysics View Post
    ahh, this depends. you're not allowed to refuse a card present transaction on the basis of id
    You certianly are... Merchants can require photo id for all credit card purchases. Even if the credit card has your photo on it. They can also require that if your billing address is different on your card than your id that you provide proof of your current address.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by quantumphysics View Post
    you're not allowed to refuse a card present transaction on the basis of id
    AFAIK, that is only half true. A merchant is not allowed to refuse a card when swiped (unless a "declined" message is returned). A web host obviously isn't swiping the card, so they are not subject to this rule.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    Your country (turkey) has the 2nd highest rate of fraud with orders to our company, its not to say YOU ARE FRAUD, but your country is huge on fraud and we will not waste time or risk fraud without the documentation.
    I am sometimes living in Indonesia and I bought some server years ago with Gigenet and Staminus. They did require me to send credit card photo and ID card. I asked them why, and they politely explain it to me. And now, I am long term customer of Staminus since 2004.

    For me this is harsh, even maybe when I order and company says it is about Indonesia(even I am not completely Indonesian) with same words, that is hurt. The sales should be more politely explain the situation even that country has HUGE FRAUDER.

    Explain with a "sorry" word will be better even you never did wrong.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by petteyg359 View Post
    A merchant is not allowed to refuse a card when swiped (unless a "declined" message is returned)
    I am so sorry to be the bearer of bad news but your statement is lacking in correctness.

    Merchants can ask for your ID at anytime. Even after the transation is approved (of course if they decide to decline the transaction they would have to run a reversal). They can even keep your card if you fail to produce ID when requested. And get this ... the credit card companies will even give the clerk who does it a cash reward!

    One thing to remember .. your credit card does not belong to you, it belongs to the financial institution that issued it. I don't mean VISA or Mastercard I mean the bank that is putting up the money when you use the card.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsj5j View Post
    Turnkey has all rights to take the procedures it feel necessary before doing business with anyone.
    You do not have the right to the service of a company.
    Similarly, you can choose NOT to do business with Turnkey and reject their terms.

    PayPal's payments are not trustable because they do little to verify you.
    Most of their "verified" users in fradulent countries use gift cards or the like to verify themselves, and little is done to verify their name/addresses nor credit rating. CCs at least verify your address and credit rating.

    This is not ignorance.
    Those who claim otherwise (rely on PayPal!) are the ones truly ignorant.

    And to those who claim that "if you don't trust PayPal, don't use them", the issue is that PayPal is convenient and is a good form of payment provided the user is not fraudulent.
    That's why companies still accept them, but they do their own external fraud checks.
    hmmm.
    There are other ways to authenticate a person.
    Personally, I use PayPal because I don't want my CC info floating around on the internet. And they ask me my CC details for authentication?
    Some kind of joke?
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  10. #60
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    Maybe Turnkey does not like anyone from Turkey because the country name is very similar to their company name. Remove the N from turnkey and they become Turkey

    Turnkey has every right to ask for documents to establish ID. They can ask for his passport, or a machine issued id {if passport is hand written} like drivers license, some form of permits anything that verfies the photo and the name etc. They can ask for utility bill or bank statement paper that shows name and address to verify the address and name. They can even ask him to stand in front of some monument in Turkey{country} holding the daily newspaper showing date/time and his ID and a even a live turkey{bird} in another hand to verify his name, id, photo, address, location.

    OK, even a credit card with numbers or the cv2 blacked out is also reasonable.

    But asking for full front and back scan of the credit card, and a form to sign that grants them the right to whatever charges they want to add on the card is a lot for a payment already paid using PayPal.
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  11. #61
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    Nope. The merchant agreements are quite clear about it. If a person presents their card, and the card swipes, the merchant is not allowed to refuse the sale, at risk of losing their "license" to accept those cards. They can ask for ID until they're out of breath, but the purchaser has zero obligation to provide that ID. Now, if it doesn't swipe, they can choose to refuse the sale (or say "we'll have to refuse your card unless you provide some ID"), since the card might be fake.
    [GB ≠ GiB] [MB ≠ MiB] [kB ≠ kiB] [1000 ≠ 1024] [Giga ≠ gram] [Mega ≠ milli] [Kelvin ≠ kilo] [Byte ≠ bit]
    There is no millibit. There is no gram-bit. There is no Kelvin-Byte.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by petteyg359 View Post
    Nope. The merchant agreements are quite clear about it. If a person presents their card, and the card swipes, the merchant is not allowed to refuse the sale, at risk of losing their "license" to accept those cards. They can ask for ID until they're out of breath, but the purchaser has zero obligation to provide that ID. Now, if it doesn't swipe, they can choose to refuse the sale (or say "we'll have to refuse your card unless you provide some ID"), since the card might be fake.
    You don't need a license to accept credit cards. You need a merchant account and a bank account, that's it.

    And yes you can request photo id. If they do not present it, you don't have to accept the card.

    I really hope I misread this post, or it was made out of context. This is some really bad information.

    No merchant is obligated to accept a payment or conduct a sale if they have reason to believe the sale is not legit. PERIOD!!!
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    No merchant is obligated to accept a payment or conduct a sale if they have reason to believe the sale is not legit. PERIOD!!!
    No credit card company or processor is obligated to pay a merchant for products that the CC-holding individual may not pay them back for, either. Hence, the merchant must agree to certain policies in order to accept payments from the companies/banks that issued those worthless pieces of plastic.
    [GB ≠ GiB] [MB ≠ MiB] [kB ≠ kiB] [1000 ≠ 1024] [Giga ≠ gram] [Mega ≠ milli] [Kelvin ≠ kilo] [Byte ≠ bit]
    There is no millibit. There is no gram-bit. There is no Kelvin-Byte.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by petteyg359 View Post
    Nope. The merchant agreements are quite clear about it. If a person presents their card, and the card swipes, the merchant is not allowed to refuse the sale, at risk of losing their "license" to accept those cards.
    You are correct .. Myself and all those who said otherwise are wrong.

    I did some checking (I read my Merchant Agreement) And it clearly states that you may not refuse to accept the card if it gets approved during the authorization proccess and you can not refuse to attempt to get it authorized. You may ask for ID but you cannot refuse a transaction if the customer refuses to provide one.

    (Now you may require ID if they are buying something like cigs, or booze or getting a prescription - but this doesn't have anything to do with the credit card).

    If the Credit Card company has reason to believe it is a fraudlent transaction they will tell you not to accept the card and possibly instruct you to keep it (this is what must have happened to me when I got the cash reward).

    Instead of copying my Merchant Agreement I used "The Google" and found this link. I am sure that there are others.

    http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Alert-FS15.htm

    petteyg

    FYI - If the card gets approved you will get paid ... The credit card company assumes the liability.
    Last edited by TheMule; 11-29-2010 at 05:53 PM. Reason: adding comment
    The Mule

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMule View Post
    You are correct .. Myself and all those who said otherwise are wrong.

    I did some checking (I read my Merchant Agreement) And it clearly states that you may not refuse to accept the card if it gets approved during the authorization proccess and you can not refuse to attempt to get it authorized. You may ask for ID but you cannot refuse a transaction if the customer refuses to provide one.

    (Now you may require ID if they are buying something like cigs, or booze or getting a prescription - but this doesn't have anything to do with the credit card).

    If the Credit Card company has reason to believe it is a fraudlent transaction they will tell you not to accept the card and possibly instruct you to keep it (this is what must have happened to me when I got the cash reward).

    Instead of copying my Merchant Agreement I used "The Google" and found this link. I am sure that there are others.

    http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Alert-FS15.htm

    petteyg

    FYI - If the card gets approved you will get paid ... The credit card company assumes the liability.
    This assumes the card holder is in front of you. When that card is NOT in your possession, you have every right to require a signature and photo proving that the person is who they say they are.

    Almost 14 years requesting a photo ID, and the very VERY few times anyone has had a problem was because they were NOT the card holder.

    Has anyone on this list ever been to Vegas? You cannot make a purchase with a CC without showing your ID, PERIOD.

    You of course have the right to refuse to show an ID, and the merchant has the right to refuse to sell you anything.

    I've yet to see anyone challenge the legality. Again, the people who have an issue with this problem in my experience are generally up to no good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    It's illegal in Turkey to discriminate people by race, country, religion or the language he/she speaks; in ANY situation. You simply can't label someone as a potential criminal all because he/she is from a specific country. I would sue them if it happens in Turkey.
    Exactly what race is Turkish? Might want to look up Nationality and Race
    Last edited by rasputin; 11-29-2010 at 06:17 PM.
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  16. #66
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    Unfortunately yet again there are many people posting inaccurate information in this thread.
    My question to Turnkey would be 'how do you plan to authenticate the credit card information (if provided) by this customer considering they have paid via PayPal?'
    Since you cannot achieve the above why are you asking/storing this information, what can it possibly achieve?
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    This assumes the card holder is in front of you. When that card is NOT in your possession, you have every right to require a signature and photo proving that the person is who they say they are.
    You do have the right to ask for a signature and that the card be signed but according to the Merchant Agreement you can not refuse the transaction based on refusal to provide ID. If you do they could cancel you privalege to accept ther card.



    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    Almost 14 years requesting a photo ID, and the very VERY few times anyone has had a problem was because they were NOT the card holder.
    Just because you have been doing it doesn't mean you're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    Has anyone on this list ever been to Vegas? You cannot make a purchase with a CC without showing your ID, PERIOD.
    I have been going to Vegas on a regular base since 1982 ... I used to get carded everytime I tried to buy booze or chips and even when I sat down to play BJ.

    I have not been carded for anything (except checking in at the hotel - NV law so I am told) for more than 20 years. <sigh>


    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    You of course have the right to refuse to show an ID, and the merchant has the right to refuse to sell you anything.
    You may be right here .. although that has been challeged successfuly in court many times. If you put yourself out as a public enterprise there are some rules (that vary from place to place) that you must go by.

    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    I've yet to see anyone challenge the legality. Again, the people who have an issue with this problem in my experience are generally up to no good.
    Me neither but there are a lot of people who take their privacy very very serious

    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    Exactly what race is Turkish? Might want to look up Nationality and Race
    Turks and Kurds mostly ... If I remember correctly (school was a long time ago for me). Don't they teach Geography where you live?
    The Mule

  18. #68
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    They are just crazy. They refused my order because i am from Brazil.
    One of the reasons given is that the customer service number of my credit card was wrong on their verification, but i just sent the copy of the both sides of the credit card to them, and it's absolutely right.

    I think they shouldn't accept any overseas order if they are not propared to friendly understand and know the customers

    Just C class service.
    Luciano G. Santos

  19. #69
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    I think all companies (small or large) we have the right to protect ourselves against fraudulent practices, perhaps the issue here is how he commented the client.

    One problem to consider is the language, to translate the text may look a cold or even rude. Perhaps the only provider performing the normal process would not be offensive.
    Just a point to consider
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaboman View Post
    I think all companies (small or large) we have the right to protect ourselves against fraudulent practices, Just a point to consider
    Yep and that is why we run credit cards thru an authorization proccess .. If it comes back accepted with an authoraztion number we will be paid. The CC company accepts the risk.

    Lup --- I wouldn't sell to you either cause you're from Brazil. And before you ask, There is no reason for it it's just my policy.
    The Mule

  21. #71
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    The MasterCard and VISA merchant agreements do not differentiate between in-person and remote sales when it comes to requiring ID. You are simply not allowed to make the presentation of ID a condition to complete the sale with a VISA or MasterCard. Any violation of this rule can potentially be reported to your bank and get your merchant account yanked.

    Here's the relevant sections of each of the two agreements:

    Mastercard (http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchan...l_public.pdf):

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastercard
    5.8.4 Additional Cardholder Identification

    A Merchant must not refuse to complete a Transaction solely because a Cardholder who has complied with the conditions for presentment of a Card at the POI refuses to provide additional identification information, except as specifically permitted or required by the Standards. A Merchant may require additional identification from the Cardholder if the information is required to complete the Transaction, such as for shipping purposes. A Merchant in a country or region that supports use of the MasterCard Address Verification Service (AVS) may require the Cardholder’s ZIP or postal code to complete a Cardholder-Activated Terminal (CAT) Transaction, or the Cardholder’s address and ZIP or postal code to complete a mail order, phone order, or e-commerce Transaction.
    I'm not completely sure where the POI is defined to be in an e-commerce transaction, but from the end of the paragraph they are clearly considered to be covered by 5.8.4.

    The VISA merchant agreement was apparently replaced with the very very long (1000+ pages) International Operating Regulations (http://usa.visa.com/download/merchan...tions-main.pdf), which state, in chapter 6 (presently page 428):

    Quote Originally Posted by VISA
    Supplemental Identification - U.S. Region
    A U.S. Acquirer must not, as a regular practice, require a Merchant, and a Merchant must not require a
    Cardholder, to provide any supplementary Cardholder information as a condition for honoring a Visa
    Card or Visa Electron Card, unless it is required or permitted elsewhere in the U.S. Regional
    Operating Regulations. Such supplementary Cardholder information includes, but is not limited to:
    • Social Security Number (or any part thereof)
    • Fingerprint
    • Home or business address or telephone number
    • Driver's license number
    • Photocopy of a driver's license
    • Photocopy of the Visa Card or Visa Electron Card
    • Other credit card
    The VISA one is 1148 pages long, so it's kind of poorly organized.

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