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  1. #1

    Angry Turnkey Internet asks my credit card details for a PayPal payment [based on country]


    Very well, TurnKey. I'm really impressed by your "deep commitment to customer satisfaction".

    Due to Turnkey Internet's Black Friday 50% off deal, I've purchased the Q9550 with 1 GigE dedicated port via paypal. After that, got an email asking these documents:

    ...
    1) Print and complete the attached CREDIT CARD AUTHORIZATION FORM
    2) Please scan or take a photograph of your Picture ID (driver's license, government ID, or passport).
    3) Please scan or take a photograph of the front and back of the billing credit card you are using for this purchase (it must match the details from item (1) above).
    ...
    I thought it's a regular procedure for credit card payments. But I've paid via PayPal. So sent them my picture ID only.
    They replied back:


    Unfortunately we no longer have any available GigE ported servers available. We can still provision the server, but with a 100Mb link and credit your account accordingly.
    We will also need the form returned, regardless of payment menthod.
    I've asked for another server with 1 GigE port:

    I need GigE port server and paid for it as advertised. Please upgrade me to another equivalent server with 1Gbps dedicated port for same price.
    And the reply:

    Your order will be canceled (and refunded) if full documentation is not provided.

    These 50% off discount deals are at our discretion, you choose to NOT provide every detail we require which

    A) includes copies of the payment method (yes the credit card you used on paypal)

    B) the photo ID

    C) the signed authorization form

    Then the order will be canceled and refunded within the next 8 hours, we don't have time to waste time with fraud.

    Your country (turkey) has the 2nd highest rate of fraud with orders to our company, its not to say YOU ARE FRAUD, but your country is huge on fraud and we will not waste time or risk fraud without the documentation.

    YOUR CHOICE, provide documentation, or we will cancel the order.
    They don't want to waste time because I'm Turkish. Is this rude and racist manner normal in the hosting industry?
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  2. #2
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    is not unusual, many companies require these documents to prevent fraud.
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  3. #3
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    Without reading everything, why would you say they are racist? Why do people always play this card.

    They stated a FACT about the country you live in. They even explicitly mentioned that this is because of the country you live in providing large numbers of fraud orders and NOT that you personally were a fraud.

    I couldn't care less about the policies or ins and outs of your problem but WHT should stop allowing these stupid idiotic posts. It really irritates me the way people always play the racist card when things don't go their way.

  4. #4
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    I dont get why would they ask for CC auth form if you are going to pay month by month through paypal? they should have disabled paypal or any other type of payments if they wanted a CC auth form to be faxed/emailed to them.

    Again, as the title says "You have elected to pay for your Internet Services using VISA, Mastercard, etc".. which is not true in his case, he opted to pay via paypal.

  5. #5
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    Not sure how this is racist. If they were a Turkish company and 50% or more of there fraud still came from Turkey then yes I am sure they would still say the same thing.

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    some companies wont even take orders from turkey be happy they will ever sell you a server.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post

    Very well, TurnKey. I'm really impressed by your "deep commitment to customer satisfaction".

    Due to Turnkey Internet's Black Friday 50% off deal, I've purchased the Q9550 with 1 GigE dedicated port via paypal. After that, got an email asking these documents:



    I thought it's a regular procedure for credit card payments. But I've paid via PayPal. So sent them my picture ID only.
    They replied back:





    I've asked for another server with 1 GigE port:



    And the reply:



    They don't want to waste time because I'm Turkish. Is this rude and racist manner normal in the hosting industry?
    How in the hell is this racist? This is almost VERBATIM what we and every other legitimate host I know of asks for. Fraud is rampant out there and we have to be sure we are dealing with who you say you are.

    Racist? Did I miss something???
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  8. #8
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    racist? assas

    How is that racist?asking for verification is a industry norm these days.

  9. #9
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    I don't see how this is as all racist? Turkey is a high risk country with a lot of fraud happening, TurnkeyInternet are merely protecting themselves and the possible victim of fraud. Just submit your information and you'll get your server.

  10. #10
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    I don't find it racist at all, they're just taking proactive steps to stop fraud orders. The special they're running will be attracting a lot of customers, and usually budget services / crazy specials and offers attract a lot of 'questionable' folk.

    I'm pretty sure most hosts have a similar policy for orders placed by high risk countries, I know we do.
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  11. #11
    Is it legal in US to say "You have yo give us your credit card number because you're black. Yeah, you've paid for the service, but black people has high rate of fraud, so you have to scan your credit card and picture ID"?

  12. #12
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    I guess the bigger question now is, what race are we talking about. I was not aware Turk was a race. I think its more caucasian and mixed than anything else.

    BTW, I took at look at that PDF for the payment verification. Its almost identical to what we use, minus the logo. I've never had anyone have a problem with it, save for the people that were trying to screw us.
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  13. #13
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    I don't see any racism but they are in violation of visa and mastercard regulations.

    When you pay with paypal a merchant is not provided with any credit card information _at all_. Using PayPal to process payments is not a merchant account and does not entitle merchants to conduct themselves as accepting credit cards.

    Things might be different if it's going through PayPal virtual terminal but I don't think that's what you did here.

    They should of thanked you for using PayPal since international credit card transactions offer merchants no recourse regardless of the ID you send them.

    Visa and Mastercard regulations are rather restrictive as to what material your allowed to collect from clients.

    I believe they do have a point about Turkey, I think alot of businesses won't conduct business with Turkey just because of the fraud.
    Last edited by woods01; 11-24-2010 at 08:03 PM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    I guess the bigger question now is, what race are we talking about. I was not aware Turk was a race. I think its more caucasian and mixed than anything else.

    BTW, I took at look at that PDF for the payment verification. Its almost identical to what we use, minus the logo. I've never had anyone have a problem with it, save for the people that were trying to screw us.
    Well, I would send them my credit card details if it's their way to protect themselves. But, if they tell me "We don't have time to waste with someone from Turkey", there must be a problem.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    Is it legal in US to say "You have yo give us your credit card number because you're black. Yeah, you've paid for the service, but black people has high rate of fraud, so you have to scan your credit card and picture ID"?
    Are you black?

    Evet, in the US merchants have the right to ask for proof of a person's identity by way of photo ID when payment is made in any other form than CASH.

    You pay by check, charge, paypal, I don't care if you are green and come from Vulcan, I need a copy of your driver's license, photo ID, passport, something!

    Its a completely common practice to ask for photo ID from someone attempting to pay with something other than cash. Its neither racist, nor unethical.

    What exactly makes you think this is racist?
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    Are you black?

    Evet, in the US merchants have the right to ask for proof of a person's identity by way of photo ID when payment is made in any other form than CASH.

    You pay by check, charge, paypal, I don't care if you are green and come from Vulcan, I need a copy of your driver's license, photo ID, passport, something!

    Its a completely common practice to ask for photo ID from someone attempting to pay with something other than cash. Its neither racist, nor unethical.

    What exactly makes you think this is racist?
    I have sent them my picture ID. I would send my credit card details too. But their reason is, yeah, racist.

  17. #17
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    My order was flagged too; they asked me to fill out form, provide ID, and give a scan of my CC. I e-mailed them back asking why my order was flagged. I was told they do it to everyone. In the same e-mail I included a picture ID and I told them I don't feel comfortable sending them a picture of my credit card because of rampant fraud. I then proceeded to ask them to switch my payment method to Google Checkout since I didn't want to send over my CC information. Within an hour or two Adam called me up to confirm my order and the order was processed (I still paid via my CC). I'm a minority - no racism against me AFAIK.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    Well, I would send them my credit card details if it's their way to protect themselves. But, if they tell me "We don't have time to waste with someone from Turkey", there must be a problem.
    Maybe he's had issues with people from certain parts of the world. Many of us are suspect of Nigerian or Malaysian orders. That's not racist, its just that many of us have been burned enough to recognize the warning signs.

    I doubt I'd ever call anyone on it to their face. I am happy to just not accept the business myself when I see what might be a problem.

    What race is Turkey btw?

    My biggest pet peeve today is the improper use of the word racist.

    All I'm saying is it is not unreasonable for a business to ask for a potential customer to provide some proof that they will not f#$k us over.

    Its also not unreasonable for a potential customer to be prepared to provide that proof. I've been doing this almost 14 years now and its RARE, that I am wrong when it comes to reading people.

    What exactly is the problem with providing this information anyway? The only thing we cannot ask for is a social security number. Address, telephone, photo id, etc. its all pretty much a requirement.

    Let me ask this. Can you walk into a bank with a check made out to cash at a bank you do not do business with, with no photo ID of any kind, and cash it? If they ask you for some other info, are you gonna call them racist?
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    Let me ask this. Can you walk into a bank with a check made out to cash at a bank you do not do business with, with no photo ID of any kind, and cash it? If they ask you for some other info, are you gonna call them racist?
    It's illegal in Turkey to discriminate people by race, country, religion or the language he/she speaks; in ANY situation. You simply can't label someone as a potential criminal all because he/she is from a specific country. I would sue them if it happens in Turkey.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post

    Very well, TurnKey. I'm really impressed by your "deep commitment to customer satisfaction".

    Due to Turnkey Internet's Black Friday 50% off deal, I've purchased the Q9550 with 1 GigE dedicated port via paypal. After that, got an email asking these documents:



    I thought it's a regular procedure for credit card payments. But I've paid via PayPal. So sent them my picture ID only.
    They replied back:





    I've asked for another server with 1 GigE port:



    And the reply:



    They don't want to waste time because I'm Turkish. Is this rude and racist manner normal in the hosting industry?
    They need the information so they do not get a chargeback, which COSTS THEM MONEY. Small business is hard, and they are taking normal precautions. TURKEY does have HIGH CC FRAUD, I know from my business.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    It's illegal in Turkey to discriminate people by race, country, religion or the language he/she speaks; in ANY situation. You simply can't label someone as a potential criminal all because he/she is from a specific country. I would sue them if it happens in Turkey.
    They're based in New York, why would Turkish law apply to them? Besides, as others have pointed out they are simply doing what thousands of other companies do daily.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    I have sent them my picture ID. I would send my credit card details too. But their reason is, yeah, racist.
    if the amount is over $500, they do not have paypal protection against fraud

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin M View Post
    They're based in New York, why would Turkish law apply to them? Besides, as others have pointed out they are simply doing what thousands of other companies do daily.
    I haven't said them i won't send these documents, also I have send them my photo ID. I asked for the service I paid, and they replied "You're a potential criminal, because you're from Turkey. Send us these documents or get out". It's what I found non-acceptable. I have sent thousands of documents to web sites, and i will continue to send. The problem is, eeah anyways, i hope you get...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    I haven't said them i won't send these documents, also I have send them my photo ID. I asked for the service I paid, and they replied "You're a potential criminal, because you're from Turkey. Send us these documents or get out". It's what I found non-acceptable. I have sent thousands of documents to web sites, and i will continue to send. The problem is, eeah anyways, i hope you get...
    Are those their exact words? If not, don't put them in quotes as it's very misleading.

  25. #25
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    Although I think Turnkey Internet did nothing wrong by demanding the OP provide the necessary paperwork because he is from Turkey (a country where a lot of fraud originates), I do believe they could have been a bit more diplomatic/professional about it. Reading TKI's response to the OP, it felt like a teenage kid's response who is trying not to be racist but still wanted to get his point across.

  26. #26
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    Yes, the policy is pretty standard. However we should give the OP some slack because when someone is not familiar with how standard protocol usually is, it does come across as racial profiling, in this case because of his location.

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    Your country (turkey) has the 2nd highest rate of fraud with orders to our company, its not to say YOU ARE FRAUD, but your country is huge on fraud and we will not waste time or risk fraud without the documentation.
    That's a fair position and isn't racist in any way.

  28. #28
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    They've done nothing "racist" here. They stated a fact (Turkey causes the 2nd highest rate of fraud orders to their company) and requesting that you provide them with proper documentation to ensure that that rate of fraud does not increase. Many providers will request the same from you. But to scream "racism" is just silly.

  29. #29
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    Wait - the OP is paying with PayPal, so why is a credit card form necessary here? Shouldn't a photo ID (or/and another verification method) be enough? Isn't the whole point of PayPal to protect credit card numbers?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by cedricd View Post
    Wait - the OP is paying with PayPal, so why is a credit card form necessary here? Shouldn't a photo ID (or/and another verification method) be enough? Isn't the whole point of PayPal to protect credit card numbers?
    not when the value is over $500 or non paypal confirmed address

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evet View Post
    I haven't said them i won't send these documents, also I have send them my photo ID. I asked for the service I paid, and they replied "You're a potential criminal, because you're from Turkey. Send us these documents or get out". It's what I found non-acceptable. I have sent thousands of documents to web sites, and i will continue to send. The problem is, eeah anyways, i hope you get...

    If you think them "racist", take your money else where, why bother?

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by loyalpay View Post
    not when the value is over $500 or non paypal confirmed address
    The value was $127 and my paypal address is confirmed.

  33. #33
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racist

    –noun
    1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
    Nitpick if you wish about the exact definition of the word.

    But, it certainly seems to be at least stereotyping and discriminatory. It is a very inward looking mindset.

    The OP paid by paypal, the payment was accepted, the payee has a verified address. That should have been the end of it. As a matter of fact, depending on the reading of the Paypal agreement, it is against their TOS to ask for additional identification or to store it.

    Certainly sending copies of picture id and credit cards over the internet to be stored on some stranger's server is completely insane.

    Showing identification to a clerk is one thing, letting them photocopy it is an entirely different matter.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by plumsauce View Post
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racist



    Nitpick if you wish about the exact definition of the word.

    But, it certainly seems to be at least stereotyping and discriminatory. It is a very inward looking mindset.

    The OP paid by paypal, the payment was accepted, the payee has a verified address. That should have been the end of it. As a matter of fact, depending on the reading of the Paypal agreement, it is against their TOS to ask for additional identification or to store it.

    Certainly sending copies of picture id and credit cards over the internet to be stored on some stranger's server is completely insane.

    Showing identification to a clerk is one thing, letting them photocopy it is an entirely different matter.
    Most people who send photo's of their CC blank out a few numbers for their protection

  35. #35
    lol that's not racist, don't be silly

  36. #36
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    If you have a verified PayPal account, and you can provide your Photo Identification [passport, drivers license], and your address verification [bank statement, utility bill in your name], then you don't need to sign any credit card form. That defeats the purpose of using PayPal in the first page.

    Why would you need to sign a credit card authorization from that does not list the services or the amount, and gives the host authorization to charge anything on your card.

    You are paying using PayPal, not a credit card.

    Time to switch to a better host.

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  37. #37
    Just because someone is using a verified paypal account doesn't mean it's a legitimate order.

    Stolen paypal accounts are fairly common these days.

    I agree however that providing anything more than a photo id is asking too much for a paypal order.

  38. #38
    i had several orders myself coming from stolen paypal accounts (verified even). the verification process is something normal.

    tbh i don't see anything racist there, and i think the OP is overreacting. please use common sense.
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  39. #39
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    Are people of Turkish decent in America receiving this same "racist" treatment? If not then it's not racist.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    What exactly makes you think this is racist?
    Because they mentioned they were singling him out because he was from Turkey.

    In fact anyone living in a developing country receives the same treatment. Thats pretty much anyone living outside of Europe or North America.

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