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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by abtme View Post
    With the cost of VPS's going down and down, I fail to see how any profit can be made, and the majority of clients dont see failover and other nice features as a benefit.
    I guess it really depends on who your market is. Sure the bottom of the barrel VPS market won't be interested in paying more for a cloud VPS, but that is fine as there are plenty of people who will (and do). Plus I think once the public become more and more aware of the benefits of cloud VPS and compared to your traditional VPS, I think you will find the cloud VPS market will continue to grow and grow and grow...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Latic View Post
    Ditlev,

    I'd agree that if you just want a control panel and want to buy now pay later Onapp wouldn't be a bad option.

    However for a product that does things like Automatic provision of LAMP clusters, in addition to allowing you to really build you own complex applications (including things like switches, load balancers etc.) im not sure if onapp would be the choice, but then again I've not looked at 2.2 so may be completely wrong!
    OnApp has fully integrated load balancers, setting up of clusters etc. Fully featured autoscaling etc.
    And we are often told our UI is more suitable for the hosting industry - that's what we've build it for (unlike 3tera).
    Where 3tera really has the upper hand is in their future support for VMware. We are simply just not there yet. It's really annoying, but we've had to keep pushing it down the prioritisation list.

    Honestly though, we do not see 3tera as competitors. It's very very rarely we meet them when we are out in the market pitching for business. We sometimes (very rarely) meet cloud.com, but really, they are not competitors as well.
    Unlike any those guys we've decided to focus so specifically on this small hosting market that we know so well and love so much, and here we are more or less alone (until parallels gets something in the market some day).

    Our only *real* competitor is the internal IT/R&D setups at larger hosts. Sometimes they look at our offering and say "hey, we can build that!" - and that is typically what happens when we there is a larger contract we do not win. Though, probably in 50% of the times - or more - we have a new discussion with those guys 3-6 months down the line when they realise what it takes to build something like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    These days I see many license providers offer multiple tiers for their support/license deployments.

    Food for though:

    A cheaper license say 15% cheaper per core but limit the support SLA to 24Hour responses...

    Then have another option at say 25% cheaper which limits one to "forum" support only...
    That actually makes sense, and I'd be happy to play around with this model. Thanks for your input.

    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Also I,d like to see an owned license option for the OnApp Controller with the option to purchase updates yearly, etc I think a good 2-3 Year ROI on the cost would be good for businesses who want to use onapp for a long term investment to their solutions...
    and have a separate support fee?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTrike View Post
    I've been put off for the same reason, we're a 100% AMD server environment... So you can see where the problem comes in for me.

    And I want to use it badly! Perhaps a dynamic pricing structure, factoring in the different platforms? AMD vs. Intel. i.e. pricing should flow to keep both platforms viable. If Intel increases core counts, the price should reflect it as such.

    The example being, a 4 Core Intel would be $40/mo where a similarly powerful AMD 8 Core would also be $40/mo. You would have about the same cloud power, so why not a similar price.

    In this situation you would need to keep an eye on the technology (by you, I mean OnApp) so they could reflect cost of AMD vs. Intel platforms accordingly, since the platforms are similar in power but spread out among cores differently. This effectively kills off using AMD with OnApp IMO because it doubles the cost for the same amount of performance.

    Perhaps it's something Ditlev can have his team look into in a lab environment to confirm?
    We've had that discussion so many times, but it's really hard to structure a fixed pricing model. One (very very smart) potential client that I've been negotiating with for a while now also highlighted that AMD's are actually the 'greener' alternative, and that my pricing model sort of worked against that. Obviously I do not want to work against the environment.

    Again, what we've done in those cases is simply to sit down with the client a build a model that works for everyone. I would say that half - if not more - of my team are straight out of the hosting industry. We are an easy bunch to discuss with as we understand how the industry works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudstra View Post
    Personally I think OnApp's pricing model is just fine. Like Ditlev has said, they won't be beaten on price for any "substantial" cloud deployment.
    Thanks


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudstra View Post
    I guess it really depends on who your market is. Sure the bottom of the barrel VPS market won't be interested in paying more for a cloud VPS, but that is fine as there are plenty of people who will (and do). Plus I think once the public become more and more aware of the benefits of cloud VPS and compared to your traditional VPS, I think you will find the cloud VPS market will continue to grow and grow and grow...
    The 'smart' clients pull themselves out of the price war. Not that they 'move up' in the market - like becoming enterprise focused etc - but they enhance their offering by adding partnerships, applicationlayers, new bundles etc etc and that de-commoditizes their product and makes it harder for client to get full transparency of the offering/pricing compared to the other players in the market.
    Again, the typical OnApp based host enjoys around 50-60% margins, but those with a higher margin are the ones that understand the de-commoditization game.
    Done right that will increase your conversion rates as well, it will decrease churn and do wonders to your multiple - if you were ever looking to sell your business.


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  3. #28
    I agree, pricing model based on CPU Cores is a bit out of sync with all the different hardware around these days. IMO per CPU or per physical server pricing model would be better.
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  4. #29
    getting more meaningful and resourceful now.
    thanks for the good input, especially when the big player responded my post.

    In my opinion onapp is now the major player in cloud control panel that's the reason why market move towards this marketing pattern by per core basis. There are long way to go, many other new player will step in sooner or later and just like conventional control panel now a day also started with higher cost.

  5. #30
    We use OnApp, but if you know Xen visualization you can do your basic panel. If not I would recommend OnApp.

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudserverhq View Post
    Interested to know what is the common cloud control panel in cloud hosting now a day.

    Perhaps this separate to commercial and opensource.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    and have a separate support fee?
    Correct, Include support and updates with an owned OnApp Controller license for the first 6 months or something then after that one can purchase support and updates at a yearly fixed fee.

    I think a decent price for an owned OnApp Controller license would be around the $2500 - $3000 per cloud setup (Of course you would still charge per core) as this is an average ROI of 2-3 Years which is great for any business with a good solid business plan.

    Theirs allways 2 sides to every coin in this industry, You get the side which needs the support and is prepared to pay for said support then you get the tech savvy side who doesnt really need support but they happen to still get stung for it within certain pricing structures.

    I also have a feature request for the website for this page: http://onapp.com/cloud/pricing

    Instead of having the pricing in text, Why not build some sort of "Cloud Calculator" where you can input how many clouds and cpu's you wish to deploy then "Click Calculate" and bingo you have the pricing (Am sure am not the only one who has to scrammble to their calculator when pricing up a cloud)
    UK Based Proactive Server Management.
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  7. #32
    it seems that my post being hijacked and turned to commercial post

    Perhaps members try to provide more info on other cloud control panel rather than just focus on onapp. Strongly believe there are more in-house cp.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudserverhq View Post
    it seems that my post being hijacked and turned to commercial post

    Perhaps members try to provide more info on other cloud control panel rather than just focus on onapp. Strongly believe there are more in-house cp.
    Thats the thing at the moment its either 3Terra or OnApp, Unless you have a VERY high budget you could consider going with another provider but compared to 3Terra and OnApp you will not find anything much better vs the price.

    OnApp is also considered "Cheap" to some of the more higher priced enterprise solutions some multi-million pound businesses are using, However without a massive multi-million pound budget, etc your pretty much stuck with 3Terra or OnApp...

    OnApp is built for the hosting industry and is owned by someone from the hosting industry, All their staff appear to be from the hosting industry aswell.
    Last edited by Server Management; 08-24-2011 at 09:12 AM.
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  9. #34
    thanks.

    How about opensource?

  10. #35
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    Well, if you want to roll up your sleeves, google up Cloud Orchestration.

    On one of the hits, Jim Kaskade actually assembled a pretty good list of most options out there @ http://jameskaskade.com/?p=1810

    Oddly, there's no AppLogic or OnApp there. But keep in mind, his target market segment is 'different' than pure web hosting. And for the most part, solutions there will be more expensive than the two listed.

  11. #36
    oh, what a good recent listing!

  12. #37
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    Interesting. In a big sales pitch for OnApp last year I was told the price would be per hypervisor, not per core. Did this eventually change or did I hear it wrong?
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | DDOS Protected | Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    There are more and more cloud control panels popping up on the market. OnApp is still (by far) the most deployed one though, we've got more VM's, more HV's, more clients and more experience than any of the ones mentioned in this thread. We are also the only panel exclusively written for the hosting industry.
    I would say that is far far from the truth. VMware, Xen Self Service, OpenStack, Cloud.com and Eucalyptus have you beat big time in HV count.
    I <3 Linux Clusters

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartika-andrew View Post
    Nice response Ditlev, I certainly agree with most of what you have said...



    well, ca.com bought 3terra's product for $100M and citrix bought cloud.com for over $100M. I would say these products are far ahead of onapp at this point (not taking a shot Ditlev, more then anything, simply explaining your niche is really the hosting industry - and NOTHING wrong with that at all). Openstack with contributions from NASA looks pretty interesting as well...



    onapp is pretty inexpensive. We dont use it, but, I am not going to slam it for price. I would be interested in seeing what setups people are running for clouds that would call this control software expensive. I mean by the time you buy networking, servers, redundant storage, hypervisors, etc, etc.. $10/month/core or whatever they charge is pretty well free. If the price really is an issue, look at cloud.com or openstack which are open source I believe. Heck, even write your own interface as citrix and vmware have pretty extensive APIs
    Eucalpytus can be had for $299/core fixed price. Cloud.com pricing is still pending post Citrix buying them, but it was quite similar.
    I <3 Linux Clusters

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ View Post
    Interesting. In a big sales pitch for OnApp last year I was told the price would be per hypervisor, not per core. Did this eventually change or did I hear it wrong?
    Actually if they were to price it per hypervisor and not per core their pricing would have to rise to reflect the such huge core allocations which Intel and AMD are now putting in their processors, I think its good that they dont charge for virtual cores such as H/T but the whole Intel/AMD debate with OnApp is of course a different ball game.

    The cloud is based upon allocations of per core, per GB Ram, etc and OnApp is just staying within them terms.

    If the pricing was going to be per hypervisor then i,d expect to see the price be some what $200+ per hypervisor due to the fact that hosts will be using massive AMD deployments with 32+ Cores while OnApp will be somewhat at a loss, After all OnApp is a business with overheads and they need to make money whiles trying to keep the over all cost for their product down in order to gain more market share.

    You cannot please everyone in this day and age but I feel if OnApp was to bring in different levels of support such as 24 Hour SLA responses and forum support thus they could lower their pricing due to less overhead but this will only appeal to the more cloud savvy users and not first time OnApp users.

    I honestly do hope OnApp take the Owned Control Panel License request into consideration:

    $2500 - $3000 One time owned license Or $100/Month for the Control Panel License per cloud deployment
    $10 Per Core/Month
    What do others think about that?
    Last edited by Server Management; 08-24-2011 at 03:26 PM.
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  16. #41
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    It's been a busy few months.. I've been rather quiet lately. It sure does look like an advertisement thread. But why do we need more of those OnApp ads when I look up 6" and see the ad as I'm writing my reply, at least those are paid for.

    I can speak neutral as we are not a Cloud developer or vendor of Cloud software, we're a hosting provider that happens to be very enthusiastic about Cloud and has taken everything we have that was once not Cloud, and now IS Cloud.

    We've looked at, priced, and used just about every major platform in the industry. We constantly evaluate and develop new Clouds, and are always looking for a better way to do things. If there are better solutions, then we will use them. Loyalty is to the customer, not the vendor. With that being said we still carry relationships with Citrix (XenServer), VMWare (All sorts of stuff), and CA (AppLogic).

    You don't see OnApp in that list? It's because it is not the cheapest, easiest, most flexible, largest, or most suitable enterprise grade Cloud software on the market. Based on my experience with everything else in the industry, it's none of them. I'm only going to break down price as that seems to be a hot topic, and let's use a typical Virtual Private Data Center (Private Cloud) installation for a customer looking for this in the industry.

    Here's the scenario: Prospect comes to the hosting provider asking for a mid grade 4 node VPDC. They don't want VPS servers, they want location independence, scalability, redundancy, and the bells and whistles of Cloud. You tell the customer central storage is now needed and with N+1 you can actually use 3 of those 4 servers, so 75% effectiveness.. Ok cool they tell you to proceed with budget friendly hardware and get them a quote with options. Ok no problem, single socket quad cores and 8GB/RAM/server sounds budget friendly to start with. They want to scale up in 6 months or so as well to have more resources. Ok great.

    1) Price - OnApp wants $100 per Cloud (Virtual Private Data Center) per month, plus $10 per month per CORE(!), not Socket. So for this Cloud, the price just for licensing is $100 for the VPDC + $160 for the cores, or $260/mo. We ask, do we get to own those licenses? They said no it's leased. Bummer.. but hey it's cheap right?

    So fast forward 6 months and the customer wants to double the core count per socket and drop in an 8 core socket, and double the RAM now that their application is fully launched and they have a larger budget. Well your price just doubled with OnApp for the cores so you're going to need to pass that on to the customer.

    Oh we also forgot this needs to be Cloud not VPS so bring on the centralized storage. Oh wait, OnApp doesn't do that itself. Crap, that's more hosting costs as with the rackspace, power, and facilities for a SAN, and the complexity of another management piece to add to the hosting costs. Since we've already gone this far we better quote a second SAN for redundancy as we're not using a very high-end SAN either and we wouldn't want the whole Cloud going down for a single point of failure of a single budget friendly SAN. Eeeks.. now this is getting expensive, and creating quite the footprint in the Data Center. I'm not so sure the customer is going to like the quote at the end of the day, nor the limitations that are brought on by the infrastructure. Might as well just go with the common marketing stigma, Cloud is very expensive! Or is there another way?

    Now let's price out AppLogic. For the same setup we need to purchase 4 socket licenses. AppLogic pricing is $1,600/socket + 20% maintenance annually list price. Dang, that sounds like a lot. But oh wait, we own these licenses so they're paid once. Nice, now it's an asset, not an operating cost. Next, we get to tell the customer they can swap in the 8 core sockets 6 months later for a fraction of the cost of the OnApp route as we don't pay anything more for the cores, we're only concerned about the increased hardware cost. Nice, they like that and so do we.

    Finally, we say hey we got some other good news for you.. we don't need the SANs either if we go this route. Oh yeah? How is that? Well.. you see, AppLogic utilizes the local storage to create a virtual IP SAN across your network. So, you have your redundant SANs but it uses local storage on each server to accomplish it. SATA, SAS, or SSD is no problem. Really? Sweet!

    So the customer asks what the costs would be and using AppLogic, we can quote them significantly less.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    It's been a busy few months.. I've been rather quiet lately. It sure does look like an advertisement thread. But why do we need more of those OnApp ads when I look up 6" and see the ad as I'm writing my reply, at least those are paid for.

    I can speak neutral as we are not a Cloud developer or vendor of Cloud software, we're a hosting provider that happens to be very enthusiastic about Cloud and has taken everything we have that was once not Cloud, and now IS Cloud.

    We've looked at, priced, and used just about every major platform in the industry. We constantly evaluate and develop new Clouds, and are always looking for a better way to do things. If there are better solutions, then we will use them. Loyalty is to the customer, not the vendor. With that being said we still carry relationships with Citrix (XenServer), VMWare (All sorts of stuff), and CA (AppLogic).

    You don't see OnApp in that list? It's because it is not the cheapest, easiest, most flexible, largest, or most suitable enterprise grade Cloud software on the market. Based on my experience with everything else in the industry, it's none of them. I'm only going to break down price as that seems to be a hot topic, and let's use a typical Virtual Private Data Center (Private Cloud) installation for a customer looking for this in the industry.

    Here's the scenario: Prospect comes to the hosting provider asking for a mid grade 4 node VPDC. They don't want VPS servers, they want location independence, scalability, redundancy, and the bells and whistles of Cloud. You tell the customer central storage is now needed and with N+1 you can actually use 3 of those 4 servers, so 75% effectiveness.. Ok cool they tell you to proceed with budget friendly hardware and get them a quote with options. Ok no problem, single socket quad cores and 8GB/RAM/server sounds budget friendly to start with. They want to scale up in 6 months or so as well to have more resources. Ok great.

    1) Price - OnApp wants $100 per Cloud (Virtual Private Data Center) per month, plus $10 per month per CORE(!), not Socket. So for this Cloud, the price just for licensing is $100 for the VPDC + $160 for the cores, or $260/mo. We ask, do we get to own those licenses? They said no it's leased. Bummer.. but hey it's cheap right?

    So fast forward 6 months and the customer wants to double the core count per socket and drop in an 8 core socket, and double the RAM now that their application is fully launched and they have a larger budget. Well your price just doubled with OnApp for the cores so you're going to need to pass that on to the customer.

    Oh we also forgot this needs to be Cloud not VPS so bring on the centralized storage. Oh wait, OnApp doesn't do that itself. Crap, that's more hosting costs as with the rackspace, power, and facilities for a SAN, and the complexity of another management piece to add to the hosting costs. Since we've already gone this far we better quote a second SAN for redundancy as we're not using a very high-end SAN either and we wouldn't want the whole Cloud going down for a single point of failure of a single budget friendly SAN. Eeeks.. now this is getting expensive, and creating quite the footprint in the Data Center. I'm not so sure the customer is going to like the quote at the end of the day, nor the limitations that are brought on by the infrastructure. Might as well just go with the common marketing stigma, Cloud is very expensive! Or is there another way?

    Now let's price out AppLogic. For the same setup we need to purchase 4 socket licenses. AppLogic pricing is $1,600/socket + 20% maintenance annually list price. Dang, that sounds like a lot. But oh wait, we own these licenses so they're paid once. Nice, now it's an asset, not an operating cost. Next, we get to tell the customer they can swap in the 8 core sockets 6 months later for a fraction of the cost of the OnApp route as we don't pay anything more for the cores, we're only concerned about the increased hardware cost. Nice, they like that and so do we.

    Finally, we say hey we got some other good news for you.. we don't need the SANs either if we go this route. Oh yeah? How is that? Well.. you see, AppLogic utilizes the local storage to create a virtual IP SAN across your network. So, you have your redundant SANs but it uses local storage on each server to accomplish it. SATA, SAS, or SSD is no problem. Really? Sweet!

    So the customer asks what the costs would be and using AppLogic, we can quote them significantly less.
    Yup... I can vouch that OnApp needs to bring some sort of owned license structure into play as alot of people prefer to have assets rather than large operating costs, I know myself prefers assets as it adds alot more value to my businesses, etc

    Owned licenses with additional cost for yearly support and updates is the way forward I think, The likes of LiteSpeed, WHMCS, etc do the same I guess its pretty standard in the hosting industry these days aswell...
    Last edited by Server Management; 08-24-2011 at 03:37 PM.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Yup... I can vouch that OnApp needs to bring some sort of owned license structure into play as alot of people prefer to have assets rather than large operating costs, I know myself prefers assets as it adds alot more value to my businesses, etc
    For sure! Plus it's a better writeoff, and they're transferable.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudWeb View Post
    For sure! Plus it's a better writeoff, and they're transferable.
    Theirs 2 sides to every pound coin so how about they bring in 2 pricing structures, Monthly pricing & Owned license pricing with additional cost for yearly support and upgrades...

    Their product is good and they need to bring the cash in because of costs they have incurred to make the product and marketing, etc But I dont believe monthly pricing is fair for those who wish to use OnApp for the long haul, Yes monthly pricing is good for those who wish to use for afew months then flip the business or something, But those who want to use the product for years to come arnt going to be wanting to pay monthly, Long term customers are valued customers and keeping them customers feeling valued is by letting them purchase things like owned licenses and stuff...

    What you all reckon?
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ View Post
    Interesting. In a big sales pitch for OnApp last year I was told the price would be per hypervisor, not per core. Did this eventually change or did I hear it wrong?
    I wasn't with OnApp back then, but as far I as remembered, they advertised $10/core when they launched. Unless it's way before they advertised @ WHT.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Yup... I can vouch that OnApp needs to bring some sort of owned license structure into play as alot of people prefer to have assets rather than large operating costs, I know myself prefers assets as it adds alot more value to my businesses, etc

    Owned licenses with additional cost for yearly support and updates is the way forward I think, The likes of LiteSpeed, WHMCS, etc do the same I guess its pretty standard in the hosting industry these days aswell...
    I obviously understand the point...It is not how most hosting control panels are sold though...CPanel, plesk, virtuozzo etc.
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    I obviously understand the point...It is not how most hosting control panels are sold though...CPanel, plesk, virtuozzo etc.
    True, But you'd still get your recurring revenue from the per core pricing for the hypervisors.

    If I also recall cPanel at one time did sell owned/lifetime licenses
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  23. #48
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    and how does vmware's solutions stand against onapp and applogic?
    Something awesome
    coming soon....

  24. #49
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    Don't forget Citrix XenServer Web Self-Service portal.

    You need enterprise licenses to use it, which are $2500 per hypervisor to use. If you go through CDW or Insight they are about $2300 per HV and about $325-$350 per year for renewals.

    Ya go for it. It may be useful

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheimeng View Post
    I wasn't with OnApp back then, but as far I as remembered, they advertised $10/core when they launched. Unless it's way before they advertised @ WHT.
    First time i got a hint of onapp CDN i thought about your product, now just confirmed it was just a rebrand
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