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  1. #1
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    Cogent buys transit from InterNAP or InterNAP added cogent to the mix?

    See following trace

    1 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms e-wheelock.fairchild1-crt.Dartmouth.EDU [129.170.246.1]
    2 1 ms 5 ms 7 ms 0 ms 0 ms ropeferry-fairchild.ropeferry1-crt.dartmouth.edu [129.170.2.17]
    3 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 3 ms 0 ms core.border1-rt.dartmouth.edu [129.170.2.195]
    4 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms vtelinet-216-66-108-221.vermontel.net [216.66.108.221]
    5 18 ms 19 ms 18 ms 18 ms 19 ms g11-2.core01.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com [38.112.23.169]
    6 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms 40 ms 39 ms p5-0.core01.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.110]
    7 40 ms 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms p6-0.core01.ord03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.2.238]
    8 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms 43 ms 40 ms core101.cogent-212.chg.pnap.net [64.74.106.97]
    9 36 ms 37 ms 37 ms 37 ms 37 ms 151-4.chg.pnap.net [xx.xx.xx.xx]

    See hop #8 -
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  2. #2
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    the latter most likely.
    James Cornman
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  3. #3
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    Now that's interesting....

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  4. #4
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    Cogent is a completely independant ISP. They own and maintain their own fiber backbones throughout the world. InterNAP added Cogent to the mix. Or, the data just travelled through a peering point (MAE), through Cogent's lines, and then transferred to InterNAP fiber at another peering point.

    EDIT: Ah, and also, Hop #8's hostname denotes a Cogent uplink under the pnap.net domain. Most DC's will label their uplinks with the provider's name and other info.

  5. #5
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    Last I heard, cogent was buying up a lot of pops from providers ...
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  6. #6
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    One of internaps main pops in chicago is in L3, i know a couple of the techs. There DS3 equipment for each carrier is labeled, one of them is labeled PSINET. Which is now cogent. So it is safe to say internap buys transit from cogent.
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  7. #7
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    Okay I guess they picked up Cogent which makes sense seeing as how Cogent is buying out pops and making themeself very well Peered
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  8. #8
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    I agree - Cogent is not nearly as bad as it used to be.

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  9. #9
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    Yep - I think Cogent would be doing themselves a favor if they stop selling themselves too cheap. It's making people want to buy them but it's not helping their image much
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  10. #10
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    Originally posted by The Broadband Man
    Yep - I think Cogent would be doing themselves a favor if they stop selling themselves too cheap. It's making people want to buy them but it's not helping their image much
    Cogent, nor its investors, would want to change the entire business model that brought them to where they are. Why change a good thing? Raising the price will cause providers to leave them, and Cogent would be stuck with endless miles of unused fiber and buildings because most of their clients would be gone.

  11. #11
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    That's if you know what their business model is to begin with.

    A lot of companies do this type of thing. While building out their network and picking up POPs along the way they sell cheap. Once they get everything done or reach that milestone the pricing structure changes and rates go up.

    If you don't believe that happens just look at netzero and EV1. That's precisely what both did.

    Well shouldn't say that's what they did because I don't know their business model either. but the result is that's what happened.
    Last edited by fastnoc; 06-06-2005 at 06:07 PM.

  12. #12
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    I have a feeling Cogent's business model is not to be the dirt cheapest host in the industry and to be regarded as left over crap to best used best as backup ...

    I think they do that now b/c they ened up here due to problems ... in fact it must be the case because why bother getting better peering, buy pops and imrove network if you like the image of being a cheap ******-a$$ host
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  13. #13
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    I agree.

    We were going to have cogent lines put in to our racks at a local ISP we had servers at when they first came up but routing was so horrid and latency so bad I'd have been embarassed to serve websites on it. We tested for one month and said no way.

    From what I'm hearing that's changing though

  14. #14
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    Exactly.

    It is in fact ridiculous to assume from a purely economics point of view.

    No business writes up a business plan to say - we will feed the cheapest demand and the lowest quality ... that increases the risk of going bankrupt with no safety net and an extremely high overhead.

    Cogent is trying to pump its network to a status where if they don't have the routes, they will be peered with someone that will. I full expect to see Cogent either

    1) Come out with a "Premium product"
    2) Increase their pricing
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  15. #15
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    I've some servers with cogent in the mix, latency looks good though. They have improved a lot compared to what they were.

  16. #16
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    Yeah, Cogent has developed relationships with many top providers and has vastly expanded its peering partners to make their network pretty diverse in terms of possible routes.

    If Cogent starts laying more lines and getting more capacity, I don't see why they cannot become as solid a host as GBLX or L3
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  17. #17
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    Well having done work for a company here in Canada that has lots of unused fiber -aka- unused capacity, I can tell you that it is a bad thing and it is possible in my opinion to have a viable business model that says, we are going to build out to be the dominant carrier AND stay at 90% (or whatever) utilization of routes.

    This means that unlike other providers who have better infrastructures in place, you can win on volume alone. This is because you are only carrying a small fraction of your capacity as non paid. This happens in telco regularly and Cogent strikes me as a telco mindset. Contrast that with a "tier 1" carrier who may have lots of unused capacity and therefore HAS to charge a premium to stay in the black.

    I don't know Cogent's strategy so just offering a different point of view, it is very viable.
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  18. #18
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    It is in fact ridiculous to assume from a purely economics point of view.

    No business writes up a business plan to say - we will feed the cheapest demand and the lowest quality ... that increases the risk of going bankrupt with no safety net and an extremely high overhead.
    No, it's not at all ridiculous to assume that. Wal-Mart, CostCo, "The Dollar Stores" ... etc. Their business plans are to provide discount products, and they seem to be doing pretty well. There is a market for discount products and services. Cogent seems to fit that pretty well. Someone else mentioned in this thread about how Ev1 started out as a discount provider and somehow their rates. I'd like to point out that Ev1 never once raised their rates, and truthfully still are a discount provider. It's just that other provides such as The Planet, Nocster, Layered Tech, random joe schmo host, under cut them, just like we're beginning to see Cogent competitors do to them.

    1) Come out with a "Premium product"
    I wouldn't expect that. Running two different products is quite simply inefficient and raises over head hugely. Cogent seems to like the market that they're in they're pretty successful at it.

    2) Increase their pricing
    I also wouldn't expect that. The cost of bandwidth has come down considerbly in the past couple of years. Rather than raise their pricing and lose some of their customer base, it'd be wiser for them to instead keep their pricing steady and continue to take the lower profit margins, and then in the coming years see the margins increase greatly. Of course, who's to say they won't continue to lower their pricing. Just last year we saw them at 20-25 per mbit, now they're down to 6-10.

    We were going to have cogent lines put in to our racks at a local ISP we had servers at when they first came up but routing was so horrid and latency so bad I'd have been embarassed to serve websites on it. We tested for one month and said no way.
    Cogent when they first came out, did have a lower than average network. Since making several acquisitions, and simply improving their products, it's become a pretty good product.

    If Cogent starts laying more lines and getting more capacity, I don't see why they cannot become as solid a host as GBLX or L3
    eh? If uptime & stability is what you want, Cogent is already more reliable than Level3.

    *No, I do not use any Cogent on any of my production servers as of this time.

  19. #19
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    Remember that pricing is all relevant. What may seem like low margins right now, if Cogent kept these prices, could be high margin in the future compared to other providers. Cogent is extremely acquisition based, and this allows them to sustain growth very well, so therefore they can continue selling based on huge numbers of volume. Terry's example of Wal-Mart was perfect. Wal-Mart is the most profitable retail chain the world, and yet they are also the cheapest. Why? They have huge amounts of volume and this allows them to sustain a large amount of profit.

  20. #20
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    Cogent can and will keep their prices low. Why? Basically a culmination of what others have said. By keeping the network near capacity, they are able to sell cheaper, pretty darn simple. The same reason it works in every other business, efficiency==lower prices. The same reason Sun Country prospers while other airlines struggle to stay out of bankrupcy.

  21. #21
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but internap is not a provider, but has a network that finds the shortest rout from point A to point B. Therefore, what is so surprising about seeing good ole Cogentco in the mix?
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by PSFServers
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but internap is not a provider, but has a network that finds the shortest rout from point A to point B. Therefore, what is so surprising about seeing good ole Cogentco in the mix?
    They're generally considered low latency/stable routes. "cream of the crop" if you will. And obviously, in the past, cogent wouldn't meet a single requirement to make it into interNAP's mix.

  23. #23
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    Originally posted by seraph1
    They're generally considered low latency/stable routes. "cream of the crop" if you will. And obviously, in the past, cogent wouldn't meet a single requirement to make it into interNAP's mix.
    I believe this thread was based on the "now". And currently, cogent does have some routes faster than others, almost any provider has some routes that are faster than all the others. The reason internap is so good is that it combines all of these (not just the known to be good). And therefore it is a higher overall price.

  24. #24
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    Here are a few one liners relavent to this topic

    * The MAEs are pretty much dead
    * Their (Cogent) business model is to provide service like everyone else does. They do a better job at it than most
    * InterNAP is most likely finding themselves creating a lower end product offering which includes Cogent (apparently)
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  25. #25
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    Cogent is slowly becoming the 800 pound gorilla in the bandwidth market. This is the time in the market cycle (after a bust just like the railway, radio busts) to acquire and consolidate. They are doing it faster and much more efficiently than anyone. However this means one of their main concerns is integration of the new networks into their own infrastructure which is why I believe they have had the hiccups they have had over the years. But the worst is over, they seem to be getting a handle on the routing/network integration issues.

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