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06-06-2005, 03:43 PM #1Web Hosting Master
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Cogent buys transit from InterNAP or InterNAP added cogent to the mix?
See following trace
1 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms e-wheelock.fairchild1-crt.Dartmouth.EDU [129.170.246.1]
2 1 ms 5 ms 7 ms 0 ms 0 ms ropeferry-fairchild.ropeferry1-crt.dartmouth.edu [129.170.2.17]
3 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 3 ms 0 ms core.border1-rt.dartmouth.edu [129.170.2.195]
4 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms vtelinet-216-66-108-221.vermontel.net [216.66.108.221]
5 18 ms 19 ms 18 ms 18 ms 19 ms g11-2.core01.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com [38.112.23.169]
6 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms 40 ms 39 ms p5-0.core01.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.110]
7 40 ms 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms p6-0.core01.ord03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.2.238]
8 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms 43 ms 40 ms core101.cogent-212.chg.pnap.net [64.74.106.97]
9 36 ms 37 ms 37 ms 37 ms 37 ms 151-4.chg.pnap.net [xx.xx.xx.xx]
See hop #8 -ServGrid - www.servgrid.com - Affordable and Reliable SSD Cloud Solutions
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06-06-2005, 03:48 PM #2Web Hosting Master
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the latter most likely.
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06-06-2005, 03:48 PM #3Eternal Member
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Now that's interesting....
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06-06-2005, 03:49 PM #4Web Hosting Master
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Cogent is a completely independant ISP. They own and maintain their own fiber backbones throughout the world. InterNAP added Cogent to the mix. Or, the data just travelled through a peering point (MAE), through Cogent's lines, and then transferred to InterNAP fiber at another peering point.
EDIT: Ah, and also, Hop #8's hostname denotes a Cogent uplink under the pnap.net domain. Most DC's will label their uplinks with the provider's name and other info.
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06-06-2005, 03:49 PM #5Web Hosting Master
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Last I heard, cogent was buying up a lot of pops from providers ...
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06-06-2005, 03:57 PM #6Web Hosting Master
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One of internaps main pops in chicago is in L3, i know a couple of the techs. There DS3 equipment for each carrier is labeled, one of them is labeled PSINET. Which is now cogent. So it is safe to say internap buys transit from cogent.
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06-06-2005, 03:58 PM #7Web Hosting Master
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Okay I guess they picked up Cogent which makes sense seeing as how Cogent is buying out pops and making themeself very well Peered
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06-06-2005, 04:07 PM #8Eternal Member
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I agree - Cogent is not nearly as bad as it used to be.
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06-06-2005, 04:11 PM #9Web Hosting Master
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Yep - I think Cogent would be doing themselves a favor if they stop selling themselves too cheap. It's making people want to buy them but it's not helping their image much
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06-06-2005, 05:48 PM #10Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by The Broadband Man
Yep - I think Cogent would be doing themselves a favor if they stop selling themselves too cheap. It's making people want to buy them but it's not helping their image much
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06-06-2005, 06:03 PM #11Web Hosting Master
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That's if you know what their business model is to begin with.
A lot of companies do this type of thing. While building out their network and picking up POPs along the way they sell cheap. Once they get everything done or reach that milestone the pricing structure changes and rates go up.
If you don't believe that happens just look at netzero and EV1. That's precisely what both did.
Well shouldn't say that's what they did because I don't know their business model either. but the result is that's what happened.Last edited by fastnoc; 06-06-2005 at 06:07 PM.
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06-06-2005, 06:07 PM #12Web Hosting Master
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I have a feeling Cogent's business model is not to be the dirt cheapest host in the industry and to be regarded as left over crap to best used best as backup ...
I think they do that now b/c they ened up here due to problems ... in fact it must be the case because why bother getting better peering, buy pops and imrove network if you like the image of being a cheap ******-a$$ hostServGrid - www.servgrid.com - Affordable and Reliable SSD Cloud Solutions
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06-06-2005, 06:08 PM #13Web Hosting Master
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I agree.
We were going to have cogent lines put in to our racks at a local ISP we had servers at when they first came up but routing was so horrid and latency so bad I'd have been embarassed to serve websites on it. We tested for one month and said no way.
From what I'm hearing that's changing though
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06-06-2005, 06:10 PM #14Web Hosting Master
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Exactly.
It is in fact ridiculous to assume from a purely economics point of view.
No business writes up a business plan to say - we will feed the cheapest demand and the lowest quality ... that increases the risk of going bankrupt with no safety net and an extremely high overhead.
Cogent is trying to pump its network to a status where if they don't have the routes, they will be peered with someone that will. I full expect to see Cogent either
1) Come out with a "Premium product"
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06-06-2005, 06:46 PM #15Web Hosting Master
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I've some servers with cogent in the mix, latency looks good though. They have improved a lot compared to what they were.
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06-06-2005, 06:47 PM #16Web Hosting Master
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Yeah, Cogent has developed relationships with many top providers and has vastly expanded its peering partners to make their network pretty diverse in terms of possible routes.
If Cogent starts laying more lines and getting more capacity, I don't see why they cannot become as solid a host as GBLX or L3ServGrid - www.servgrid.com - Affordable and Reliable SSD Cloud Solutions
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06-06-2005, 07:21 PM #17Retired Moderator
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Well having done work for a company here in Canada that has lots of unused fiber -aka- unused capacity, I can tell you that it is a bad thing and it is possible in my opinion to have a viable business model that says, we are going to build out to be the dominant carrier AND stay at 90% (or whatever) utilization of routes.
This means that unlike other providers who have better infrastructures in place, you can win on volume alone. This is because you are only carrying a small fraction of your capacity as non paid. This happens in telco regularly and Cogent strikes me as a telco mindset. Contrast that with a "tier 1" carrier who may have lots of unused capacity and therefore HAS to charge a premium to stay in the black.
I don't know Cogent's strategy so just offering a different point of view, it is very viable.CloudNexus Technology Services
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06-06-2005, 07:28 PM #18Web Hosting Master
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It is in fact ridiculous to assume from a purely economics point of view.
No business writes up a business plan to say - we will feed the cheapest demand and the lowest quality ... that increases the risk of going bankrupt with no safety net and an extremely high overhead.
1) Come out with a "Premium product"
2) Increase their pricing
We were going to have cogent lines put in to our racks at a local ISP we had servers at when they first came up but routing was so horrid and latency so bad I'd have been embarassed to serve websites on it. We tested for one month and said no way.
If Cogent starts laying more lines and getting more capacity, I don't see why they cannot become as solid a host as GBLX or L3
*No, I do not use any Cogent on any of my production servers as of this time.
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06-06-2005, 07:33 PM #19Web Hosting Master
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Remember that pricing is all relevant. What may seem like low margins right now, if Cogent kept these prices, could be high margin in the future compared to other providers. Cogent is extremely acquisition based, and this allows them to sustain growth very well, so therefore they can continue selling based on huge numbers of volume. Terry's example of Wal-Mart was perfect. Wal-Mart is the most profitable retail chain the world, and yet they are also the cheapest. Why? They have huge amounts of volume and this allows them to sustain a large amount of profit.
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06-06-2005, 07:59 PM #20Web Hosting Guru
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Cogent can and will keep their prices low. Why? Basically a culmination of what others have said. By keeping the network near capacity, they are able to sell cheaper, pretty darn simple. The same reason it works in every other business, efficiency==lower prices. The same reason Sun Country prospers while other airlines struggle to stay out of bankrupcy.
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06-06-2005, 08:18 PM #21Web Hosting Master
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but internap is not a provider, but has a network that finds the shortest rout from point A to point B. Therefore, what is so surprising about seeing good ole Cogentco in the mix?
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06-06-2005, 08:38 PM #22Web Hosting Guru
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Originally posted by PSFServers
Correct me if I'm wrong, but internap is not a provider, but has a network that finds the shortest rout from point A to point B. Therefore, what is so surprising about seeing good ole Cogentco in the mix?
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06-06-2005, 09:23 PM #23Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by seraph1
They're generally considered low latency/stable routes. "cream of the crop" if you will. And obviously, in the past, cogent wouldn't meet a single requirement to make it into interNAP's mix.
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06-06-2005, 09:37 PM #24Web Hosting Master
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Here are a few one liners relavent to this topic
* The MAEs are pretty much dead
* Their (Cogent) business model is to provide service like everyone else does. They do a better job at it than most
* InterNAP is most likely finding themselves creating a lower end product offering which includes Cogent (apparently)James Cornman
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06-06-2005, 10:10 PM #25WHT Addict
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Cogent is slowly becoming the 800 pound gorilla in the bandwidth market. This is the time in the market cycle (after a bust just like the railway, radio busts) to acquire and consolidate. They are doing it faster and much more efficiently than anyone. However this means one of their main concerns is integration of the new networks into their own infrastructure which is why I believe they have had the hiccups they have had over the years. But the worst is over, they seem to be getting a handle on the routing/network integration issues.
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