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11-19-2014, 08:15 AM #101Junior Guru
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11-19-2014, 09:33 AM #102Junior Guru Wannabe
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I think what this Gentleman is attempting to say is that Spamhaus commits crimes in the UK. All crime ("Blackmail" is a serious crime) should be reported to the police. You are very strongly encouraged to report crime such as Blackmail to the UK police, and if you need to do it anonymously (as some of the troll posters here no doubt need to) you can contact CrimeStoppers anonymously by calling +44 (0)800 555 111 or by using the following form:
https://crimestoppers-uk.org/give-in...mation-online/
If you know of, or witness, a crime and you do not report it to the police, then you are assisting the criminals to get away with it.
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11-19-2014, 09:42 AM #103
Given the nature of the discussions involving SH, it's unlikely any thread will remain "neutral" for long. You've chosen to respond here (and we don't need two running threads on this), perhaps explaining will help show your side instead of the increasingly accusatory and demeaning tone you've been taking (which helps generate like responses). This is your opportunity to calmly explain, in friendly tones, and hopefully change public opinion.
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11-19-2014, 09:44 AM #104Top-Notch Hosting
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11-19-2014, 09:55 AM #105IOFLOOD.com -- We Love Servers
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11-19-2014, 10:09 AM #106
Yes, our good customer has 50 servers with us. He resells them. Two of them have abuse problems and the servers were shut down pending a full investigation of the problem, which was complicated by the fact that we did not receive your reply (whatever the reason or fault). Your attitude that I am in cahoots with spammers just because I don't crap on my customers without a good reason first shows a serious disconnect from reality.
Our "inbound mail system" is the same used by tens or hundreds of millions, and your emails are not accepted by them. Ironic in your line of business that you consider such an issue our fault that Gmail won't accept your important notifications, and see no reason to try to mitigate that on your end, knowing that this is a common problem you experience with many people besides us.
We have had similar issues forwarding abuse to our customers so our standard template does not forward them the actual issue and instead directs our customers to view the ticket system regarding the problem. SH does the same thing for initial notifications I assume for the same reason but not for subsequent replies which have a high delivery failure rate. This was an area we were bad at initially, recognized we had room to improve, and made improvements. A novel idea I would like to bring to your attention.
We have worked around this issue now that you have brought it to our attention (thank you for doing so). We did so because we admit we are not perfect and have room to improve. I have given you many opportunities to admit the same, it is all I ask, but have refused to admit you are not perfect, and yet are susprised that people are still mad at you.IOFLOOD.com -- We Love Servers
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11-19-2014, 10:39 AM #107Junior Guru Wannabe
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Neutrality starts from the Thread Title onwards.
I say again, if anyone really wants answers to real questions that I am able to answer, post them to a new neutral thread and I will be happy to do my best to answer them (noting that questions that are obvious trolls or attempts at myth-spreading will simply not be answered). I am not able to devote further time to this particular hate thread. If that means no other members of WHT are allowed ask SH a question in a neutral thread because 'bear' will not allow it, well that is WHT's prerogative.
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11-19-2014, 10:47 AM #108Junior Guru
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11-19-2014, 11:16 AM #109
Seriously? Perhaps the mention of "friendly tones" was lost on you, so there's little hope of civility from your camp. New thread, old thread, it will remain that you feel the need to be on the attack. Good luck with that.
[EDIT]
Since your objection to this thread title is the word blackmail, something you feel is not being done by Spamhaus, let's look at the definition (which is not only threats for money, but has more than one meaning):
blackmail
/ˈblækˌmeɪl/
noun
1.the act of attempting to obtain money by intimidation, as by threats to disclose discreditable information
2.the exertion of pressure or threats, esp unfairly, in an attempt to influence someone's actions
verb (transitive)
3.to exact or attempt to exact (money or anything of value) from (a person) by threats or intimidation; extort
4.to attempt to influence the actions of (a person), esp by unfair pressure or threatsLast edited by bear; 11-19-2014 at 11:54 AM.
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11-19-2014, 06:39 PM #110Web Hosting Industry Expert
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If I can be blunt / honest / very straightforward with you...
I have discussed this thread with a dozen other providers I network with. Every one of them has had similar issues to those raised in this thread and most will not post in this thread out of fear of retribution from Spamhaus.
Do I personally think Spamhaus could take action against us/other providers in this thread simply for publicly voicing their opinions on Spamhaus? Yes. Is that sad? Absolutely. This is not something you have to address/respond to - I'm just making you aware that this fear is prolific across most providers due to Spamhaus' reputation of pressuring/blackmailing ISPs/Providers while providing little to no information on the premise that we should somehow all be omniscient.
I questioned responding to this thread at all simply so that you/somebody else from SH wouldn't go looking for reasons to blacklist IPs we have or something similar. I hope you/Spamhaus are not this vindictive but Spamhaus' reputation precedes itself as far as going out of it's way to not be helpful and cause distress.
Understand this isn't anything personal against you/SH but is based upon previous experiences I've had with SH personally as well as all of the horror stories I've heard from other providers I network with.
I can't remember the last time somebody had anything good to say about Spamhaus - even providers that do inbound and outbound scanning network-wide and monitor things VERY closely have had issues with Spamhaus and it was always a nightmare to resolve.
The information provided to Funkywizard earlier in this thread that allowed him to identify and resolve the issue quickly is the exact type of information that should be passed on to those trying to work with Spamhaus to resolve an issue.
If I can be more blunt - upstream providers like IOFlood, ourselves, PhoenixNap, HandyNetworks, Peak10, etc - none of them care about your special systems that do all of this special investigation - we aren't trying to 'crack' your code or make anything easier on spammers. We do not want spam entering or leaving our networks and we will do what we can within reason to stop it. This includes working with blacklists/SpamCop/Spamhaus to identify sources of spam and eliminate them whenever possible.
We all, as providers, hate SPAM - I can't think of a single legitimate provider that, if given the option, would not banish all SPAM from the internet forever.
I think the problem is that Spamhaus is used to dealing with arse-holes all day long [spammers]. When you get used to dealing with arse-holes a lot of that attitude most likely sticks or carries over to discussions with providers that are legitimately trying to clean up the issue.
I love SpamCop - I recommend it to everybody and I even suggest using their RBL. Why? Because they let you know the issue - and they provide some headers so you can investigate and resolve it.
I understand Spamhaus is a bit more pro-active [such as blocking large ranges of IPs] but, that said, listing large ranges should be reserved for belligerent or non-responsive networks.
If you blacklist one of our IPs and we do nothing about it - you reach out to us and we do nothing. We never respond or address it and it continues to send spam - SURE - increase the size of the block and apply pressure.
If you blacklist one of our IPs and we reach out to you for details and do everything we can with what little information was provided to stop it and then you increase the size of the block and apply pressure what, exactly, are you accomplishing? What is the goal?
At the end of the day it seems like there is a huge disconnect between how Spamhaus believes facilities and upstreams operate and how they actually operate.
I am sure there are crappy providers out there that cater to spammers - but not all providers should be labeled the same and placed in that 'basket'. There are a lot of us that really do want our networks clear of all SPAM inbound and out and will investigate/resolve any SPAM issues reported so long as there is enough information provided to identify and resolve the issue.
No matter how much pressure is applied without enough information we are looking for a needle in a stack of needles.
Why do you treat us all as though we're spammers? If we are asking for some information so that we can identify and resolve the issue - why refuse to provide it?Last edited by Mike - MDDHosting; 11-19-2014 at 06:47 PM. Reason: Typos and Clarification.
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11-19-2014, 07:15 PM #111Newbie
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I couldn't of said it better; but unfortunately according to everything I've ever seen from Spamhaus, the reply is ultimately always a derivative of "We don't respond to spammer myths."
Unfortunately, simply stating something isn't true doesn't make it so. I'm not sure what the love for the word "myths" is, but I don't see any illegitimate complaints (nor spammers) in this thread.
If even the most basic concerns mentioned in this thread could be addressed, that'd be a step in the right direction. Some willingness to work with others, without abusing your client relationships to create fear is all most of the users in this thread seem to be seeking.
It'd also be great to avoid escalating this any further, which is all your continued refusals and excuses are doing.
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11-19-2014, 08:57 PM #112Web Hosting Master
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Michael -
You nailed it my friend.
Most providers these days have implemented a spam filtering gateway because the blacklist are devastating to the business. Then if a few slip through, you still get blacklisted anyway even though 99.9% are filter out.
A provider, a group of hundred or so customers punished because of one bad apple is unfortunate.
SH would benefit greatly from having a partner program. One that united web hosts and RBL instead of punishing them for trying to help. I do believe the first RBL who realizes this and gets ahead of the game, will see a lot less work and will finally have the first great reputation.
Additional: I truly believe that RBL are lacking in their understanding of "spamming". The vast majority we see are unintentional. They are hacks of a wordpress install, they are a comp'd password, etc. As soon as they are detected, they are handled and the nightmare process begins.
A notice of a pending blacklist for certified partners could help us not only stay off of blacklist for customers using legitimate email. It could also help secure the web from hacks on a grand scale.
I would be more than happy to sit down with you and work with you on creating a partner program that would assist ISP and spamhaus goals alike so this can be a positive experience for everyone involved.Last edited by Zachary McClung; 11-19-2014 at 09:10 PM.
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11-20-2014, 05:55 AM #113Web Hosting Evangelist
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They could actually do as little as start being more polite for starters. I guess many of you have experienced this when we contact SH (removal requests etc) and we're polite like hi and thanks and all the basic manners and we get an email with a single word "No" or "Why?"
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11-20-2014, 03:25 PM #114Owner of the net for a day
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I wonder what kind of business some of you are running to have such issues with them really, do you simply ignore abuse complaints until they get moved to blacklist status or something?
you generally get warning signs, spamcop loop being the first in most cases. spamcop is far worse (if you want to call it that) about reporting wordpress hacks and mailers, but it is still a problem and must be addressed and removed from working. It really doesn't matter the original source it needs to be acted upon.
As for these:
Most providers these days have implemented a spam filtering gateway because the blacklist are devastating to the business. Then if a few slip through, you still get blacklisted anyway even though 99.9% are filter out.
A provider, a group of hundred or so customers punished because of one bad apple is unfortunate.
SH would benefit greatly from having a partner program. One that united web hosts and RBL instead of punishing them for trying to help. I do believe the first RBL who realizes this and gets ahead of the game, will see a lot less work and will finally have the first great reputation.
Additional: I truly believe that RBL are lacking in their understanding of "spamming". The vast majority we see are unintentional. They are hacks of a wordpress install, they are a comp'd password, etc. As soon as they are detected, they are handled and the nightmare process begins.
just saying 'its a clients bad install/permissions/app' is a cop out excuse, its still our job as hosts to prevent these from being a menace on the internet sending spam, sql injection attempts, acting as rogue proxies for mail, http hits etc. Responsibility is the network owner, and I understand how some of you may not have your own allocation and at the whim of the IP owner getting mad. But your being mad needs to be directed at the netblock owner not acting.
We were once in a situation that I won't expand upon greatly but we didn't own our netblocks and we acted promptly every time. Spamhaus worked with us well, but due to the netblock owner they basically told us, we recommend you move soon as you are just feeding a spammer and making their IPs look better when they are pumping out loads of spam. I knew in time that the ownership of the netblock owner company was sketchy and they did some underhanded things in the name of 'marketing' and ultimately we wanted control and made the move to get our own IPs and I'd never look back. In the end look who you do business with and if it is propping up entities that are negative to the internet world, maybe it is time for you to find someone who isn't or get full control yourself?
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11-20-2014, 06:38 PM #115Web Hosting Master
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I wonder what kind of business some of you are running to have such issues with them really, do you simply ignore abuse complaints until they get moved to blacklist status or something?
Site5, HostDime, Steadfast, Arvixe, DedicatedNow, TekTonic and us.
Generally NOT the case, spamcop, spamhaus etc all list small subnets to start unless you have a track record of not acting. Many times it is only a /32 listing and notice, again unless you don't act.
Let's say you have a box with 100 people who can't send mail, there is a good chance 5 - 10% of those are going to end up complaining about it on the Internet. This damages your brand and cost you thousands in future sales. It may not have even been intentional. Which brings me back to my first point of all of us implementing spam filtering systems.
That will never work when you have hosts that really don't care or act quickly to stop, or even acknowledge the general fishiness of entire /24s with rDNS and newly registered junk domains being used for spam. It is a classic snowshoe technique and legit customers will not be doing this action, ever.
The reality is, it could work. Just like web hosts have minimal on their partner program for sales, so that people just buying one or two don't consume resources meant for big time money makers. The RBL could have standards for partners. If you don't meet those standards you don't get to stay in the program. Thus penalizing the a--hats who don't care about spam and letting the rest of us who do the opportunity to not penalize us for doing our jobs.
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The reality is web hosting companies are placed between a rock and a hard place. Customers can become frustrated, RBL can be unhelpful. We can do a lot technically to solve the issue; but, that then means that customers lose on the user experience. Everyone is saying it would be nice if we could all be friends and combat spam together. If everyone worked together, a much large dent would be made in keeping the Internet safe instead of this current dysfunctional relationship that exists today which is a fight because of two very different interests at play.Synersis Media | Boutique Technology Marketing Agency
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11-20-2014, 08:54 PM #116Owner of the net for a day
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If hosts would not quietly support the spam by ignoring it until it's a problem, then you'd not be having to spend anything. Plus there are many solutions outside of spending money on solutions, all of which work.
It's almost like some companies want the problems so they can make it into a PR event to get their name out and talk about this new service or filter, and about how much they spent to do so.
I'm sure a lot of people told Henry Ford a car would never be possible. How about Elon Musk with an electric car or Neil Armstrong with going to the moon. The fact is by automatically saying it won't work, you've already defeated yourself. If that is the mindset you are going to have in the technology industry where things literally innovate monthly, then you best get out now.
The reality is, it could work. Just like web hosts have minimal on their partner program for sales, so that people just buying one or two don't consume resources meant for big time money makers. The RBL could have standards for partners. If you don't meet those standards you don't get to stay in the program. Thus penalizing the a--hats who don't care about spam and letting the rest of us who do the opportunity to not penalize us for doing our jobs.
The reality is web hosting companies are placed between a rock and a hard place. Customers can become frustrated, RBL can be unhelpful. We can do a lot technically to solve the issue; but, that then means that customers lose on the user experience. Everyone is saying it would be nice if we could all be friends and combat spam together. If everyone worked together, a much large dent would be made in keeping the Internet safe instead of this current dysfunctional relationship that exists today which is a fight because of two very different interests at play.
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11-20-2014, 09:26 PM #117Newbie
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You're comparing two drastically different things.
Spamcop is a statistics based blacklist, with automated listings and delistings in most cases, based on direct user reports. They implement a clear relisting escalation policy, which involves
Spamhaus SBL (specifically) is a human operated blacklist, based on whatever they interpret to be a threat. In some cases, no actual misconduct is required to be listed, for example:
If it *appears* as if you're connected to an entity which they consider to be bad, they list you. This does not necessarily mean spam or even abuse in many cases.
If a Spamhaus employee holds a grudge against you, or feels (on a whim) that you are not trustworthy, they will go to great extents to make your job as difficult as possible.
There is no clear escalation policy, and there is no clear delisting policy.
In many cases, an SBL listing is the first notification a host gets that an IP or range is being abused, which completely refutes the point that people "doing their jobs" do not get listed on blacklists.
Your points are exactly what is being discussed in this thread, network operators are making a conscious effort to work with Spamhaus on issues, however they often have a hostile attitude, even going as far as to take advantage of their relationships with customers (ex: major webmail providers) to blackmail providers into taking action, including specifically targeting unrelated network services (ex: MX servers on the providers network, third party MX services used by a provider, etc.)
In short; the point here is not about the willingness of network operators to work with Spamhaus, it's about Spamhaus' willingness to work with network operators.
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11-20-2014, 09:40 PM #118Owner of the net for a day
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Spamhaus delists just fine, it is not a problem unless you ignore them continually. Pre-emptive listings for snow shoe spammers is something you have a problem with? It is very clear their purpose, its the same thing I have happening daily to my inbox from other networks when I leave it unfiltered, new domains, with new 'companies' registered under a newly incorporated company that tends to be in some home or shady strip mall.
It is quite obvious these people if you ask them a few key question about their intent for usage of IPs are nothing but spammers. See that's the problem presented even here in this little debate back and forth. Hosts saying oh but you blacklisted my IP and it caused X clients problems. Right, you run many clients on one IP. Why does anyone but a spammer need two /24s on 2 servers all with PTR records? you can send literally millions of mails a day on a single IP and be no problem at all.
Only spammers need so many instantly PTR recorded IP addresses, add in that they are new domains on a newly incorporated company, and have no track record. It all adds up to spam. Sure some of us have resellers that accept these guys, and have to work with the reseller to resolve the issue in the long term. But in the short term you have to act on the obvious spammer, you cannot simply wait on the communications and the reseller to respond while your network gets used to bombard the net with spam.
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11-20-2014, 10:20 PM #119Newbie
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Right. However, no one said anything about new domains, a strip mall, nor a problem with listing snowshoe operations.
Each and every network provider has a different experience with Spamhaus, obviously yours is positive, however it depends greatly on who you end up getting in touch with, and how they're feeling on a particular day.
Again, this is more about the willingness of Spamhaus to work with providers. Mainly to enable them to actually track down the perpetrator of abuse to prevent it from happening again.
Of the providers whom have commented in this thread, most of them are referring to networks which route ~10k+ IPv4, or in the case of IOFlood, over 150k IPv4.
In many cases, individuals sign up for VPS or Cloud providers, create a significant number of VPS' and several days later set the PTR themselves and begin spamming. Network providers need information to ensure the spam is actually stopped, not just temporarily mitigated.
I understand you might be in a slightly different part of the hosting industry, where the situations described might be less of an issue, however it is fairly widespread.
It's a problem when an organization (Non-Profit? Obviously this is highly debatable.) sets out on a mission to stop spam and won't even provide the details or evidence necessary to track down the relevant customer and prevent them from signing up again.
The issue is amplified when Spamhaus actively puts certain providers under additional scrutiny due to their posts in a public forum criticizing their tactics, and then continues to abuse their relationship with major clients (Microsoft, Google, Yahoo) to apply pressure.
Again, in many cases this extends to targeted attacks against the provider, taking advantage of those relationships. (Ex: listing company MX servers which are completely unrelated to the issue, or listing large escalation ranges.)
Obviously Spamhaus is free to do whatever they wish, however in my opinion it reflects badly on them as an organization, especially when it directly involves leveraging relationships with large, paying clients against network providers.Last edited by MichaelGV; 11-20-2014 at 10:24 PM. Reason: clarification
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11-20-2014, 10:29 PM #120Newbie
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I totally agree with you on that. Sometime back, I used to run my own hosting and they blacklisted the whole IP ranges without any reason.
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11-20-2014, 10:38 PM #121
You realize this is a contradictory statement right? If the best option is keeping an eye on the abuse box (which we do), that will not help you prevent getting listed, as the abuse box notifies you of when you *have been listed* already. We take all the notices we get seriously. In fact we hope we get a spamcop complaint because we can nip the problem in the bud before we get a more serious spamhaus complaint. But sometimes the SH complaint is the first indication we get of any problem at all from our customer. Your statements totally contradict themselves.
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11-21-2014, 05:02 PM #122Web Hosting Guru
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It would really be wonderful if SH would send itsy bitsy little emails letting us know there is bad stuff happening in this IP range. Fix it within 24 hours or else... Heck, give us just an hour. Notices of DMCA violations, network abuse, port scanning etc. etc. seem to work and we get them resolved asap. This tends to make me believe SH is simply understaffed? I hate spam as much as the next guy.
I also find it interesting there are no "sponsors" from hardly anyone in the hosting industry at their site. You would think if we were all in a good relationship there would be quite a lot more of us on there... So according to SH, who are the bad guys in all this? Spammers or us allowing spam to ever ever happen? I think they think it's just both...
Another thing to consider, is that when large amounts of IP's are blocked, and affect innocent "bystanders" not only does it hurt any business but also those who voluntarily "sign up" for SH services are not receiving emails because it is being blocked causing them possible lost revenue. Businesses can't connect. The door swings both ways but they will never know. If they never receive a legitimate non-spam email, they'll never know.
It is also important to point out here, that SH services are voluntary and users agree to sign up for it or this whole issue would be a whole different story! "email never touches Spamhaus's network" so again, they are legally safe. I can't help but think there is a reason why SH is not located in the US http://www.spamhaus.org/faq/section/Legal%20Questions
This was also just updated 2014-11-19 http://www.spamhaus.org/organization...about-spamhaus
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11-21-2014, 08:05 PM #123Web Hosting Master
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Adhere to RFCs, you'll find you'll do far better Spamhaus is a great entity
By the time something gets to your abuse box, it's often already the result of tens of thousands of messages being sent -- nip it at the bud at the box instead, otherwise you're part of the problem, not the solution.
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11-21-2014, 09:05 PM #124Newbie
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With all due respect for your longevity in this industry, it's immediately clear you've never been responsible for management of any large network.
Although I don't doubt your company has no problem manging the actions of your customers; this thread is referring to network operators as opposed to home based businesses.
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11-21-2014, 09:19 PM #125IOFLOOD.com -- We Love Servers
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